At what point does ‘mindfulness’ become ‘selfishness’?

[AttaGirrrrl]

I’ve been seeing someone for about four months. He’s lovely. We get on brilliantly when we’re together. Sex is great. We have lots of shared interests and have a lot of fun together. We’ve met some of each other’s friends and family (but not many because of covid) and got on well.

We’re both late thirties. I’ve been married before and have 2DC. He’s had a few 1-2 year relationships, but mostly been single. This is where I think the problems stem from. I am constantly busy, always trying to juggle 12 things at once, usually flying by the seat of my pants in terms of childcare/work/logistics. He works (hard) 9-5 and then has no other commitments. He’s much more ‘mindful’ than me. If he sits down to watch a film, he concentrates on the film, whereas if I’m watching tv alone, I might also be texting friends/ironing/catching up on admin. To be clear, if I’m with him, I concentrate on what we’re doing.

Because of childcare arrangements with exDH, I tend to see OH 2-3 consecutive nights a week, but not in between. We share texts during the week, but if I suggest talking in the evening he is ‘watching a film’ or ‘listening to an audiobook’ or ‘having an early night’, etc. Part of me admires his ability to focus on one thing at a time, but part of me feels quite rejected. ExDH cheated constantly and, while I don’t think OH is lying about what he’s doing, it just feels ‘off’ somehow. Like his priorities are out? Or is it me? Am I being needy?

I’m finding it hard to process what is bothering me, but it definitely is (bothering me) so I’d appreciate any thoughts /experiences.

Thank you!

@Sakurami - I’m saying “shall we speak later?” Or “can we catch up tomorrow?” I wouldn’t expect him to stop what he was doing.

@4PawsGood - he speaks constantly on the phone to his mum/friends. Much more often than I do!

I would also consider carefully his expectations of your relationship going forwards. If you move in together it is not going to be realistic for him to expect "alone time" that often/much.

I think that's the real issue. He's used to lots of perfectly quiet 'me time' without interruption. How on earth would be cope with your household 24/7? Would he be wanting the kids to be seen and not heard? Shut himself away on another room?

There's nothing wrong with who he is, but are your lifestyles compatible?

Thank you @Strikethrough - you’ve worded this better than me. It feels like his needs outweigh mine and that his expectations for our future (and he talks about this much more than I do) aren’t very realistic.

I’m quite pleased that some people are calling me needy though. This is better than “he’s just not that into you” or “he’s cheating” which is kind of what I was expecting.

Well I wouldn't be impressed by that. But I like talking and I need that connection with someone. I see my boyfriend just under half the time so actually don't often speak in between but text a lot. When I only saw him every other weekend we would chat a few nights a week between 1-3 hours because we enjoy talking to each other.

I think you may have very different needs in a relationship. Dh and I lived in different country for the first couple years of our relationship. We dedicated several nights a week to ‘date nights’ where we talked with each other but from different time zones. No was would I have wanted to talk on the phone in between. I was busy, going to the gym, seeing friends, living life. Yes, we messaged each other during the week but I personally would have felt a bit smothered by having to have a phone call every night. I think when you have children you forget the sort of time people have for themselves and how much they just want to enjoy it when they don’t. I think it doesn’t sound like either of you is wrong though, just not very compatible.

tbh that sounds like a really normal settled/married relationship. My DH and I spend very little time actually talking together. Mostly we are in separate rooms looking at separate screens, just chilling out. I wonder if he'd be happy to meet up if you could watch different things on different screens in the same room?

It feels like his needs outweigh mine and that his expectations for our future (and he talks about this much more than I do) aren’t very realistic.

This, then, is the crux of the matter. At four months in with him talking about the future a lot I would be responding with questions about his expectation of family life - morning routines, what would evenings look like, how would the weekends be, holidays, adult birthdays, kid's birthdays etc. I wouldn't be introducing him to the children at this point myself (although if/when that does happen it would be a good test!) but I would be carefully watching him if he does meet them (as I would in any case, but perhaps his lack of experience of family life so far is more of a reason to be particularly paying attention).

You will have the "advantage" of having a few child free days every week but it will be interesting to see what his expectations are of that time too - would he expect to have all of that time to himself or would he want to spend some of it with you?

Does he want children of his own?

I’m quite pleased that some people are calling me needy though. This is better than “he’s just not that into you” or “he’s cheating” which is kind of what I was expecting.

I don't think any of these are the case. I do think it's possible that the two of you are simply not compatible (and that he may not have realised this at all).

I don’t agree it means he’s not that into you. I’m totally into DH and always was, didn’t mean I always wanted to speak to him on the phone. People have such busy and demanding jobs where everyone is expected to always be available m, it’s important to carve out down time. If I spent all my evenings on the phone to DH I would feel like I was never off the bloody thing.

If I'd seen you for three nights on the trot I'd be looking forward to my evening alone, reading or watching a film.

I think it's fine to say to someone you are having an early night if you want one, without having to feel you have to chat to them on the phone for 15 minutes because they need entertaining/want to speak.

I would find your level of wanting contact 'needy'. Yes.

StrongLegs although I'm sure that what you describe is normal in the sense of being perfectly fine, if it works for both of you, I don't think spending almost no time together and most of your free time looking at separate screens is a normal married or long term relationship for most couples!

It sounds like you are either seeing each other, or in contact by text pretty much every single day?

At 4 months in that’s plenty.

Your tone comes off as a bit superior, “oh I’m just sooooo busy with my busy busy life but I can manage to multitask, all he does is work 9-5 and he has nothing else going on in his life so why can’t he?”. Like he’s not filling his free time with ‘commitments’ that you deem worthy of his full attention.

I think you’re probably just not suited.

AttaGirrrrl are you spending (say) Sunday and Monday nights together then saying "The kids next go to their dad on Saturday, but shall we speak in the week?" and he's saying "No; tomorrow I will be watching a film, on Wednesday I will be listening to an audio book, on Thursday I will be having an early night, on Friday I will be watching another film, lets just see each other on Saturday evening". If he is, but chats away to his mum and friends on the phone happily, it is a little bit peculiar IMO...

I totally understand not wanting or needing to spend the whole evening on the phone, but explaining that its not possible because you're going to watch a film is just a bit... thin! I don't mean he's cheating or lying, exactly, I mean it sounds like an excuse for not wanting to talk when surely no excuse should be needed... A bit like "I'm washing my hair that night, sorry..."

When you do speak to him about this, what would be your desired outcome? Do you want the way things are to change or do you just want reassurance that he is genuinely doing what he says he is?

You mention he works hard 9-5, is it doing something particularly draining?

You see him 2-3 nights and exchange texts so you do have plenty of contact and time to talk. So maybe it is just a simple compatibility issue. You're telling him you'd like to talk on the phone between visits, he's telling you he doesn't want to. Neither is wrong but you're the only one compromising at the minute.

He hasn't had a very long-term relationship and you don't mention him having children so he might just be used to how he spends his free time and be happy with it. Four months is still fairly early in the relationship too. I think you will just have to tell him that you would appreciate the occasional phone call inbetween visits because some people need that in order to maintain the sense of connection. This may even surprise him!

@Strikethrough - I won’t be introducing him to the dc for a long time. At least another six months, and definitely not if I still have any doubts. He did want kids, but says he doesn’t any more (his dad died young so he feels he is too old for a baby). I really appreciate your posts. You seem to be seeing it how I am but wording it better than me!

@MadMadMadamMim - if I’d seen me three nights on a trot I’d also want a night off but four nights later I’d be wanting to speak again iyswim?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme - it’s more “we’ve not spoken for a few nights, shall we catch up tomorrow?”

Thanks all. I’m seeing him tomorrow so I’m going to try to explain that I’m feeling disconnected during the week and see if we can come up with some kind of solution. I don’t want it to be “every Wednesday at 9pm we will speak” or anything, but I also want to check I’m not driving him made by trying to talk to him either.

When you do speak to him about this, what would be your desired outcome? Do you want the way things are to change or do you just want reassurance that he is genuinely doing what he says he is?

I think I just want reassurance that he does actually like me! And, yes, that he can compromise and put someone else’s needs first. It’s not about looking down on him like some pp have suggested. I don’t think my way is better but he’s never had to compromise before so I guess I want some proof that he can.

Why would you think people would think he's cheating??
I don't like chatting to my boyfriend on the phone. I've probably phoned him 3 times in our whole relationship. I guess if you really want phone contact you could tell him this but it's really not a red flag that he isn't bothered about it.

You may be feeling rejected, that he'd rather do something else than talk to you at that moment.
Or does he talk and text his friends and mum more than he does you ?

I am wondering if moving in together may come at a shock if he's not staying at yours when normal family hectic life is happening. I'd trial him staying over whilst kids are home. If he's never experienced the nonstop business it's a big leap.

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

That's not mindfulness.

If he's present in the moment while watching a film, why can't he speak to you on the phone before or after? Indeed pressing pause to focus on a 10-15 minute phone call wouldn't contradict mindfulness and being present in the moment.

He's either using it as an excuse or doing something else...

Yes it would. Managing ie not inviting interruptions is part of a mindful practice.

Having a partner who doesn't choose to see you then interrupts your lovely, peaceful evening for a chat about nothing in particular is really, really selfish and annoying.

Adults who feel the need to verbalise their day and minutiae to someone daily, not giving their partner space, when they don't live together need to learn to become more emotionally self reliant.

@AttaGirrrrl I think that is a very reasonable thing to want proof of seeing as you have children and so he will need to fit in around them if you have long-term future together. I do think what a pp said could be true as well though - that him being pretty self-sufficient might be a great thing in respect to fitting in around you and your kid's routines.

Hopefully when you've chatted to him about it he will just take you up on your offer of a midweek catch up and all will be well!

You're exactly the right level of needy for you. He is exactly the right level of mindful/focused for him. Nobody is doing anything wrong.

You just don't match in how you want your relationship to be. You're incompatible.

I agree that neither of us is ‘wrong’, but if we’re compatible in lots of other ways I’d rather try to find a solution than give up @TheFoundations

Thanks @LopsidedWombat, I’d not seen his self-sufficiency as a benefit with dc. I was more worried that we’d just drive him mad with our chaos!

@Mountaingoatling - have you responded to the wrong thread? No one is suggesting minutiae

@PoppenhuisStories

Honestly I think you’re being needy. If I saw you three times a week, I wouldn’t want to speak to you on the phone the other days unless there was a particular reason. I’m quite happy to text through a film or podcast (or whatever) but I would value my alone time and not want to have an actual conversation. I had a long distance relationship and we never spoke on the phone, we texted a lot though. Perhaps your trust issues from your ex are niggling and your reading too much into his not wanting to speak to you?

This.

@Beeeeeeeeeeeeeep

Why would you think people would think he's cheating?? I don't like chatting to my boyfriend on the phone. I've probably phoned him 3 times in our whole relationship. I guess if you really want phone contact you could tell him this but it's really not a red flag that he isn't bothered about it.

Exactly.

Honestly people who feel the need for constant phone contact and attention are so tiresome. He's doing nothing wrong or abnormal.

I think it's odd to be talking about a joint future with someone one barely knows, tbh.