The 'Mr entitled atheist extremist' dates

[Umberellatheweatha]

I've been noticing that often the guys I go on a date with seem to take an issue with me not being an atheist and decide its their duty to 'educate' me otherwise.

I should say that I consider myself agnostic. Well, christian really but more in just a spiritual sense. Haven't been to a church in years. So it's not like I'm little miss religious or anything (nor do I feel the need to harp on about my beliefs or convert anyone lol).

But we will be chatting and I love horror movies and ghost stuff so at some point into dating the talk may loosely go towards what our beliefs are. And I'd say basically what I've said in the paragraph above. And with some of them its like you can just see something click in them where they decide its their job to educate you otherwise.

Not that they are all necessarily trying straight of the bat to tell me I'm mental for believing something they don't (though I've met one or two). Its usually a bit more subtle.

Sometimes its just really obvious and arrogant. But sometimes it creeps up over a few dates or even once you are in a relationship as if it's become their personal mission to dissuade you from belief.

I guess its male entitlement? But it makes me think about how ive never had a guy try to convince me to believe in their faith ect but a fair few men try to convince me to give up my beliefs.

Anyway, I've just panned one after a first date there because he was giving me that uneasy feeling he was going that way.

I guess it's a good test to spot entitled wankers early on. But it's still super annoying.

Anyone else had similar experience from dating? (Or partners?) Like they take offense at you believing something they dont...

@ravenmum

But we will be chatting and I love horror movies and ghost stuff so at some point into dating the talk may loosely go towards what our beliefs are. Is this about believing in god, or about believing in ghosts? If it's ghosts then it would surprise me less that you've met multiple men who actually scoff. People are usually more respectful about religion. In any case, maybe you need to drop in a few clues in your dating profile to filter out people who have issues with this from the start.

Generally speaking if you talk about these things, questions on spiritual beliefs can end up following on from that. I mean I wouldnt rule out ghosts either tbf and absolutely people will scoff about that.

But I hardly think it warrants putting anything on my profile as half the population believes in ghosts. Nor do I feel the need to put my faith on my profile because guarantee half the responses I I then get would be some knobhead who has taken umbridge with it.

I hardly think it warrants putting anything on my profile as half the population believes in ghosts. Nor do I feel the need to put my faith on my profile because guarantee half the responses I I then get would be some knobhead who has taken umbridge with it.
True, though at least you wouldn't be wasting as much time blocking them than if you actually had to go on a date.
Maybe just bring it up early to weed them out? I'm a "forinner" where I live and I wouldn't put that on a profile due to the potential abuse, but I bring it up quite fast in the first few texts.

I think it's important to be open with your beliefs early on. I usually asked directly as I will only date atheists, so I wouldn't ever be in the situation you describe OP, as there wouldn't be a first date.

As an atheist it's hard not to want to change someone's views as many of us see how damaging organised religion is and find it upsetting. That said, the behaviour you describe is rude. Everyone is entitled to their views.

Yeah I try to meet ppl relatively sharpish so that I can suss things out in person as I'm not a big fan of text convo. But yeah the quicker we can weed out the ones that don't suit, the better.

Oh, also, if you are, say, into ghosts and put something about enjoying visiting haunted sites on your profile, it might actively attract a fellow fan of the paranormal!

I definitely think there are a subset of atheists who think they are entitled or even duty bound to sneer at people who believe in God. Just as there is a subset of people in all faiths who think they are entitled to sneer at atheists. Someone who sneers at others just isn't very nice full stop, really.

I'm a committed Christian and only want to date other committed Christians so I put that on my OLD profile and am also clear that I don't do sex outside of marriage. It certainly saves me time dating people who wouldn't be able to accept that. However, I still get people messaging me trying to argue with me about it and I just ignore them. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. I'm always happy to discuss my faith with someone who is genuinely curious but not with someone who just wants to sneer at me.

In the words of Brad Paisley in his hilarious song Crazy Christians:

'I think "what if they're wrong?", but what if they're right?'

It's interesting even looking at the responses of some atheists on this post: Plenty of perfectly understanding people...and a few of the sneerer sorts. But also, interestingly, a few that say 'I would never say this to someone' - after literally just saying it.

On a date ive had men fall into that last category.
They will say: 'I've never seen proof of anything so I don't believe in anything. I dont understand how anyone can believe in anything without proof' and then quickly add 'but people are entitled to their own beliefs'. Really mate? Are you sure? xD

I dont think they are being deliberately rude. But theres a lot of this around. I've never explained my reasons for believing in god on a date.

And you'll notice that no one on this thread has felt the need to explain the reason for their religious beliefs. Or disparaged atheists for not having belief.

Of course this thread is not representative of society as a whole. And arguably may bring atheists in at a defensive stance and that can naturally make people want to explain their beliefs.

But basically I wonder if atheists are on the defensive in general a bit more...

Like they are just expecting someone to come running out of a cave at any moment and convert them lol.

There's nothing worse than anyone trying to push their beliefs on to someone else. People can make up their own minds.

@TurquoiseLemur - no, Jews are non-prostheletising, so they don't actively convert , although some movements like Lubavitch do bother non/less observant Jews to become more religious.

It is slightly different when you're Jewish, but the stuff about not understanding how religion fits in someone's life and making other assumptions about them (that they're old-fashioned, gulliable, superior, weird, will defend religion against all criticism and, ironically, are judgemental) can apply to anyone

I don't think that revealing your thoughts anonymously to another anonymous person falls into the same category as sneering at someone you're on a date with. And as the OP does seem to ask why atheists feel the need to proselytise, then atheists are going to explain their thought processes.

If you say you're an atheist you do get a bit of stick for it too. I don't ram it down people's throats but still get people asking me why I'm not an agnostic, for instance. The word "atheist" does seem to conjure up an image of a humourless person who goes round popping children's balloons.

Technically I'm probably an agnostic as I think there could potentially be something to religion, if not exactly what is described in the bible etc. I don't have proof that god doesn't exist. No-one does. Atheism is a belief. I'd rather believe there is no god, so I call myself an atheist.

(If I did have proof, I would absolutely argue with believers more! :) )

I've met people like this, it really proves the old adage about never discussing religion or politics. It seems to bring out the dickhead in people (ok that's not the exact wording).

I'm a lazy atheist, I cba to discuss my own standpoint, it just IS. Same goes for that of other people. Why do some take it as a personal affront, it's nothing to do with them?

As an atheist it is just very difficult to comprehend an intelligent person relying on belief rather than evidence.

Intelligent believers exist. There is loads of evidence for that, yet you can't understand it?

In any case, maybe you need to drop in a few clues in your dating profile to filter out people who have issues with this from the start.

Yep, put "Dickheads who think they know my mind better than me need not apply."😆

I know those guys. They often say they're feminist as well.

Absolutely. I know someone like this and while he (ironically) prides himself on his tolerance and liberalism, sneers quite openly at anyone 'stupid' enough to have a religious belief or faith.

I get it, I really do, that some people cannot understand why others have a faith. That the experiences and beliefs of others appear, for all intents and purposes, to be arbitrary, or a coping mechanism, or just what they've been taught. I can understand that point of view and respect it, but in return I would expect respect for my point of view that that isn't how such things appear to me.

Ultimately, I couldn't date - or indeed have any sort of relationship - with anyone who has such a fundamental lack of respect for any view other than their own and is a) arrogant enough to believe that they are correct (everyone else being, by definition, wrong) and b) this gives them the right to sit in judgment of others, sneering away about "sky fairies" because they cannot be arsed to look beyond their own point of view.

However, I don't agree that this is the behaviour of all atheists; ultimately it's the same with all strong viewpoints such as veganism, environmentalism, politics...the vast majority are respectful but you only hear the ones that are shouting their mouths off and being a pain in the arse!

As an atheist it is just very difficult to comprehend an intelligent person relying on belief rather than evidence... It is so difficult to suppress smirks and general incredulity at the absence of reality and to go on and examine how that belief is possible.

It's difficult for me not to raise an eyebrow at people using atheism as reality and evidence-backed. A lack of evidence isn't evidence of lack. That's why agnostic philosophy focuses on the evidence needed to say we know something rather than relying on the belief that not having evidence of something is enough. It's as against anti-theological ideologies as much as theological ones - it's the definitive claims that tends to lead to the issues of organized groups. Exploring the what ifs and possibilities of fairies doesn't really do that often.

One's perspective doesn't mean it's objective reality or backed by actual evidence. I think data as we have it so far points towards a monistic universe, doesn't mean that's reality -- like all humans, I'm limited in my understanding and very limited in my capacity to gather data on this.

Also, in all my years on the planet, I (a non-Jew) have never been harangued by a Jewish person trying to get me to convert. Does this even happen, I wonder?

Yes, though mainly by fringe groups who take particular scriptures and Rabbinical writings about the Messianic Era literally and very seriously - particularly ones about all nations turning towards God (though I've heard some discuss that either all turning towards or all against would increase a potential messianic candidates chance of succeeding). It's a whole thing, best known to me within Chassidim groups which try to promote Noachidism (essentially Judaism without converting based on the idea that Noah was given laws meant for everyone) to Gentiles, sometimes to the level of haranguing.

There are also Jewish people who try convince Gentiles out of it too with about as much furvor as the fringe groups that promote this can end up with features of cults. I had a fantastic Orthodox Jewish man talk through some of it as he's worked in this area. It was an interesting lesson both on Rabbinic literature and how more modern Rabbis wrestle with ancient war tactics of the texts and how power structures like to hide parts of themselves while trying to re-invent their image to get others to a goal.

These are very small groups of Jewish people, but there are those elements in settings that incentivize these behaviours and beliefs are for the greater good much like any other group.

Everything echobelly says chimes with me but for Catholicism.

For me any connection to religion or spirituality is about history, culture, art, theology, self-reflection, growth, comfort, community, philosophy, ritual etc.

Nothing to do with sky fairies although they sound rather lovely.

I do notice smug outspoken dismissive atheists more than religious people but maybe that's because they get my back up more. If they choose to be intolerant of others they can be I suppose as they're only limiting their own life, but it would be nice if they weren't total dicks about it.

For me, religion is quite a big issue in a relationship. I don't really care if people want to put a colander on their hat and worship the divine pasta being. By all means, knock yourselves out. However, I just could not be with someone that actively follows a religion. I find it hard to reconcile if an intelligent educated person believes in either the Christian, Muslim, Jewish or any other faith. It's actually a deal breaker for me, as I just could not respect that person as a partner and I would not want our children indoctrinated. That said, it is not ok to push your belief or non-belief on others per se. However, for every outspoken atheist, I have encountered a lot more entitled and rude religious people. On a scale, the religious mob are far less accepting and tolerant in my personal experience. To me religious belief/faith is like someone's dick. Put it away and don't show it unless specifically invited to do so! However, I also believe that one should still be tactful when someone is religious if they do not push it on you. That’s their personal right. Neither should attempt to sway the other and just agree to disagree. But it crosses boundaries for example when they exclaim that they are praying for you etc. However, ultimately, it is also about kindness and decency. Someone close to me was dying and they told me how scared they were and asked me if I thought someone was going to be there for them on the ‘other side’. They were never specifically religious but spiritual. I told them that everyone they ever loved and who had ‘gone’ was there waiting for them. It gave them peace and that was ultimately what mattered.

@AnotherKrampus

But do you not hear how it sounds to say that an intelligent or educated person can't possibly believe in god?

There ARE plenty of educated people who believe in god. Even scientists who believe in God. And plenty of people who I'm sure are way more intelligent than either of us. Whether you can reconcile with the idea of it or not.

But I love that dick analogy you made xD
And yeah agree its absolutely about tact.

I find it hard to reconcile if an intelligent educated person believes in either the Christian, Muslim, Jewish or any other faith
That's a limitation in your intellect not theirs'.

To me religious belief/faith is like someone's dick. Put it away and don't show it unless specifically invited to do so!
Do you think that way about the expression of any opinions/ values?
If not, you have a serious prejudice.

Religious or not (and I am certainly not) it's rigid zealotry in ANY set of beliefs that causes all the problems .

'As an atheist it's hard not to want to change someone's views as many of us see how damaging organised religion is and find it upsetting. That said, the behaviour you describe is rude. Everyone is entitled to their views'

I agree with the last part here. But why would, or should you, try to change someone's mind? It's their mind! Their opinion, their feelings and their choice, based on a perhaps complex combination of life experiences and beliefs influenced by factors you have no experience of. You don't get to decide what other people are allowed to feel or believe in. What is right or wrong. Just like you can't tell someone who to love. It's very personal and sometimes beyond explanation.

Organised religion has been historically, and still is (or can be) incredibly destructive and detrimental to individuals and societies. You can still be religious and think that. But religion and faith are different things (to me anyway).

I was raised Christian, I'm now agnostic. My dad is very religious still, mom a bit but less so, and my siblings are all outright atheists. We all manage to love each other and co exist harmoniously without arguing about who is 'right' or what the others 'should' believe. We can all respect each other's opinions without being dicks about it even if we disagree.

I probably wouldn't have a relationship with someone who was deeply religious because it would probably cause clashes in the way we live our day to day life but I also would absolutely not date someone who was so disrespectful as to mock me or anyone else for having faith.

You can't definitively prove a negative. So I'm open to all possibilities!

As an atheist it is just very difficult to comprehend an intelligent person relying on belief rather than evidence... It is so difficult to suppress smirks and general incredulity at the absence of reality and to go on and examine how that belief is possible

It's absolutely this - incredulity.

I will happily admit to being one of the atheists that would be described as 'sneery'. I don't pick fights with people who have a belief just to try and feel superior, but I do think it's an interesting matter to debate so I'm happy to engage in discussing it if and when it does come up.

My view of faith with zero evidence is literally incredulity. What might come across as a 'sneer' isn't intended to be condescending or belittling, it quite literally is confusion, bewilderment, and bemusement that someone could believe utterly in something that, to me at least, is entirely illogical, without any merit whatsoever, and requires the suspension of rational thought and common sense to maintain. My reaction is 'really?... no, really really? You actually believe this based on nothing whatsoever??? Wow'. It's just a natural reaction to something that I find totally and utterly ridiculous, which goes a long way to explaining why it sometimes leads to ridicule.

And no, I don't believe that there is any requirement to be 'respectful' of religious beliefs.

I absolutely accept your right to believe in whatever you like, for whatever reasons you choose, but that acceptance does not come along with a requirement that I have to be respectful, or find your beliefs any less ridiculous. Surely if you are content to believe in something with no proof whatsoever, then your belief is robust enough that you wouldn't be at all bothered by what someone else thinks, or someone who challenges your belief?

I genuinely don't understand why some people with faith get so angry about this. After all, yours is the one genuine religion right? That's an absolute. So what if someone mocks or ridicules it, it's surely beyond question or doubt anyway?

If someone was being ridiculous for any other reason, they'd rightly expect to be ridiculed, but no, not when it comes to faith or religion. Apparently the rules are different there somehow.

You are right, OP. I bet they think of themselves as open-minded as well, when in fact they are as narrow-minded and blinkered as any religious zealot. And just thoroughly unpleasant company. People pulling you up, being negative and critical all the time are not fun to be around.

Look at Dawkins' tweet about Kafka, I mean ok, not everyone has to enjoy Kafka. But it just demonstrated to me though how limited, and in some ways stupid, ostensibly intelligent people can be.

I blame The Matrix, they all think they've taken the red pill.