June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

The photo in my room is of me in my Dad's lap. He adored me and the feeling was very much mutual. He was the only person in my family who loved me. I haven't had therapy specifically for childhood trauma. It was more general than that and I guess I managed to come to terms with it all, over time, by myself.

This support thread is a godsend. After my dad died 15 years ago, the so-called family unit began to disintegrate. I didn't particularly enjoy spending time with any of the others and the scapegoating really ramped up. I'm glad I'm out of it. The guilt was brutal, but that's all subsided now and I don't feel bad about it any more.

to all here. Same for me, this thread is a godsend.
Can't talk to any friends about my family dynamics and NC situation. I always come back to this thread so that I don't feel so alone. The years have passed and I do feel more hardened up to the NC but sometimes it just gets to me and I keep thinking about it and wishing I had a caring supportive mother. I realise my life has to go on so I am trying to make the most of it but there are some hard times.

I've noticed quite a few threads cropping up recently on MN about the looming Christmas season. So many women anticipating a tsunami of family-related aggro, obligation and unwanted arrangements. Somebody posted something along the lines of "Christmas is a feminist issue".

I know I had a massive wobble last year. @AttilaTheMeerkat came through with stern and very welcome advice which pulled me back from the edge.

Going NC does take nerves of steel, but I can also say that it gets a lot easier as time goes by and clarity emerges with distance.

@sleeplessem I hear you. Hugs to little you and grown up you.

Reminds me of being a kid and, being a disrespectful smartass, trying to negotiate with god or make deals. I'd promise to do all sorts of weird challenge things if he would let me grow up faster and get away. (I also conflated god with santa and did this about christmas presents)

Toxic-mum (via enabler-dad) is now saying 'we'll do anything to bring this situation (no-contact) to an end, tell us what we need to do so you feel comfortable' so I've written back, suggested mental health intervention and therapy for TM, to find another way to deal with difficult emotions than control, rage and abuse, and I re-stated my boundaries that that doesn't happen around me any more in any circumstances. Let's see if they really meant 'anything'. I am not optimistic, but I need to feel like I've tried. It took 3 hours to write and in the process I've chewed all my finger nails off and most of the skin too, so my hands are bleeding, I feel gross and stressed and it's messed up my plans for the day so I'm behind with stuff. Sucks don't it. Thanks for listening.

Hi everyone
I am in a horrible situation. Backstory is I went low contact after several years of put downs and remained quiet. Married now and stronger in myself. Keep the boundaries and grey rock etc

Name changed but have had so much help from atilla and several of you here. Anyway about 2 years ago I was no contact due to dmother screaming and abusive. Calling me names. Stayed away but meanwhile my nieces christening was on and genuinely couldn't attend due to health.

I got a lot of abuse. Also told my father had an accident and even though sibling organised christening and so we were in contact he didn't tell me !! So obviously heartbreaking and father survived.

Since then things slightly rocky and strained. DB and wife have another baby and we are bot invited to the christening.
Just need to get it off my chest. I won't mention the christening but my own son has a special occasion next year. Does that mean I don't invite them? They live abroad so it's fine day to day but so awkward and so sad.

I feel punished for looking after myself but being not allowed to enjoy my own family. I am blamed for everything. My mother has severe mental health issues and can be cruel while promising the world (I don't want to world just maybe once to hear I was a good person)
Once in my whole life.

@Snowdropsandbluebells you are a good person and you have to accept that from within and from those close to you you truly know you and love you.
Not telling you about your father sounds really spiteful, punishing and cruel.
What I read from your post is a kind of see saw balance between wanting approval and needing to protect yourself from them .
Please do continue to choose yourself. You have every right to do so. You are 100% equal and your needs and feelings and boundaries are as valid as any other human being in this planet.
Your need to have boundaries is even more necessary than most because of the toxicity of your FOO.
Imagine your sons special occasion free from toxicity .
Now imagine it again with.
Which would you choose ?

Choose yourself snowdropsandbluebells.

You do not need your family of origin's approval, not that they would ever give it to you anyway. Your mother is out and out abusive (MH issues are not a free pass to treat other people abusively) and have you considered she may well have some form of untreated - and untreatable - personality disorder.

Invite whom you want to invite to your son's special occasion next year. You are really under no obligation to invite people who will put you down and or otherwise try and mar your own family's special day.

Hey snowdrops, I think that if you weren’t a good person, you wouldn’t even be thinking or agonising about this. You’d just do what you wanted, to hell with other people.

I think, given what you’ve said, having them around for your son’s event benefits no-one. Kid will benefit more from a happy and secure mum than grandparents being facilitated in abusing her.

@Snowdropsandbluebells - the notion of being punished for daring to have boundaries is, I think, quite common. Once you're the scapegoat, you can never escape, so you'll continue to be blamed for every little thing, even when you remove yourself from the family of origin.

You cannot reason with unreasonable people, and those people will never accept any blame or responsibility. Far easier for everyone to point the finger at you.

It's upsetting, but please try to accept that there is nothing you can do about it and it's not your fault. As for the family special occasions - it's a shame, but what can you do? I chose to miss the wedding of a beloved niece because I knew my toxic sister would be there and would definitely cause a scene as she always does.

Sometimes freedom comes with a price tag, and this is a price I was prepared to pay.

@Snowdropsandbluebells you’ve been so strong and you can keep them at a distance. Keep your priorities as YOU. No matter what your family do, they are happy to be horrible to you. Good on you for keeping your distance and ensuring that your mental well-being is paramount.

@Sicario exactly this! As soon as you put boundaries in place, you get more punishment. Mr Monkey is putting more boundaries in place about the ‘necessity’ of him ringing The Hag every day at 6pm on the dot. He never used to ring her like this pre Covid and before the frigging weeks of her staying here. Of course, it’s been about meshing him like the Slave Brother In Law. He got home at 7 last night after busy day at work - cue her phoning Slave to ring him to see where MM was. Complete and unnecessary drama. He told her that he wasn’t going to ring her every night - the phone calls are misery, spiteful or angry and not good for his mental health.
‘We might have something we want to do like go to the theatre’
‘you could just ring me for seconds.’
‘I don’t need to ring you everynight’
‘But I need to know you are alright’
‘I’m fine’
‘but I’m your mother’

What a fucking mother she is. It’s complete control and drawing him in. So proud of him for pushing back.

He’s taking her to a load of medical appointments tomorrow and she will wheedle away. Hag can’t believe people actually have agency and don’t want to be subjected to emotional abuse.

But @MonkeyfromManchester how dare Mr Monkey have a life of his own? I have given up trying to fathom why some people operate like this. I think their lives are so empty that they operate as total emotional vampires and have to create drama to force interactions.

The irony is that WE are the ones accused of creating drama when we drop the rope and walk away.

I wish there was a MN emoji thing for BIG FAT I DON'T CARE FACE.

Wholeheartedly agree - they can’t help themselves and no amount of boundaries work because they make it their sole purpose to plough through them.
Well done though to MM for pushing back. If she won’t listen and she continues to send in slave son as flying monkey you can block the mobile post 5pm maybe? Even if if he only does it a few days a week to give you both a ruddy break 🤨

@Sicario & @therealsmithfield emotional vampire is 100 per cent what she is. Everything - every single little thing - is about her and for her to suck up and use in some way.

She thrives on misery. She would LOVE nothing more than something terrible to happen so it can be another drama. Thing is, she’s trained Slave BIL to be at her beck and call and have no life, so he can deal with it.

Yes, she WILL ring him, so a plan will have to put in place.

He’s getting his act together re therapy after a row with me at the weekend which was purely him projecting her shit on to me. I dealt with it - I know what happened in his head - and that decided him as he felt terrible. The sooner he talks about this shit the better.

Waiting for 6pm. Pulls up chair.

She’s VILE.

@Sicario @therealsmithfield

Classic Hag. Mr Monkey rings her at 6.45 to make arrangements to pick her up from The Lair for her medical appointment tomorrow morning.

‘Are you alright you sound out of breath’

Pathetic voice ‘I’ve been sitting here all day wondering how I would get to the doctor’s because you don’t want to take me’

The options in this scenario are, of course, IF THIS WAS GENUINE RATHER THAN A GUILT TRIP, that 1) she would phone Slave Son (but that call wasn’t made) or 2) check the arrangements with Mr Monkey.

‘No, you know what the arrangements are’

‘you don’t want anything to do with me. You told me that last night’

Me in my head: you don’t know the half of it.

‘No, I told you that I wasn’t going to ring you every night as sometimes it’s not convenient.’

Mr Monkey deals effectively with the call and keeps it to five minutes, blocking any haggery.

Comes upstairs: ‘she’s just tried to guilt trip me’

Me: ‘did it work?’

Him: ‘no, I know what she’s doing.’

Right now, she must be SEETHING in her flat.

She knows I’ve 💯 supported Mr Monkey to get out of her clutches. She knows she can’t manipulate him as she thought she could.

So proud of him.

Great work mr monkey, keep up the good work

Thank You all for your kindness xxx

@AttilaTheMeerkat MM took The Hag to her medical appointments today. NO moaning.

She even said ‘you don’t have to ring me every day’.

Perhaps, she’s playing nice because she thinks NO calls could be on the cards which in my ideal world - along with the rock in the Atlantic - would be ideal.

Of course, she will change tactics. Very proud of MM to do this. It takes a lot after being under her rule for 53 years.

And @AttilaTheMeerkat OF COURSE when I was in a work zoom, Hag rang Mr Monkey this evening at 5.30pm to say ‘good night and god bless. I love you.’ Vomit.

Nice as pie. Taking back control. 10 second call. At unexpected time of 5.30pm. It’s work time, he has to take her call, or she’ll ring and ring.* Pushing at boundaries.

Not unexpected by me.

*I’d switch it off.

Christ, she’s like a dog with a rat.

I’m going to remind him about boundaries tomorrow.

@MonkeyfromManchester it’s so hard isn’t it. The simple fact is the can’t and won’t do boundaries. The phone became my adversary in the end. It was her last and she only had that and my siblings left as any real means of control.
He will see this eventually with your help. It’s incredibly hard but a supportive partner is a gift.

I have not relented on the contact. I have a birthday looming though next week so I am bracing myself .
It was DSis birthday last week so I did send her flowers and text her a message. I did this because I wanted to and for no other reason.
Myself and dsis are 10 years apart in age but have the best connection. I feel sad that TM would not allow that relationship and the constant triangulating became unbearable.
Dsis thanked me but did not ask any questions for which I was grateful.
Not having contact feels like self care and it’s something that I’m not great at generally . I don’t think that’s uncommon for women but my lack of self care can be extreme and almost tip into self harm my way of punishment.
I think this has begun to happen again and I have picked up on it. I am clearly punishing myself for not being able to sustain a lc relationship with TM.
I think just by acknowledging this on here and to myself is helpful.
I agree this forum is a life line

@therealsmithfield - oh god, the triangulation! It used to absolutely do my head in. Before I knew the correct expression, I used to call it "orchestration", with my toxic sister calling all the shots and getting everyone running around like headless chickens while she screamed and cried and blamed everyone around her for situations of her own making.

@therealsmithfield @Sicario
Hag is going to fight to the death on this one. The sweet old lady mask will slip.

I know this sounds spiteful (who cares?) but going out for dinner with my mum on Saturday and I hope that gets slipped into conversation with the Hag by MM.

She’s intensely jealous of my mum. And on reflection always has been hence enjoying my mum’s isolation during the worse of lockdown; thinking my mum wouldn’t have a Xmas last year, gloating over Mother’s Day which saw us stood in the pissing rain in a car park, lots of innocent questions as to her isolation, being pissed off that my mum had stopped ringing her, going on about spending time with HER sons (without my mum being there and driving her around) . She forgets how much my mum did for her with medical appointments etc.

My mum has ceased all that because Hag is an ungrateful, vicious Bitch and my mum has seen the impact of her vileness on us. My mum now makes some negative comments which isn’t in her nature.

@therealsmithfield. That’s lovely. You’re prioritising who matters. Triangulation is a nightmare and when spotted - wow, everything falls into place. Divide abd rule! Doing that to your kids - awful. Self care is mega important. MM is now starting to do that. Mine is stepping the fuck out of it all.

@Sicario your mum trained your sister to do that. Awful.

To the person above ? @trisfalpumpkin ? I chew my fingers (oddly not my nails) down to the knuckle when I have contact and they are always bleeding. If you see a woman with 9 plasters that’s me! My alcohol consumption also goes up at that time. Sending love. I’m LC and to go NC would mean I would lose a lot of the rest of my family. I have a friend who’s mother was an alcoholic and she said that when she died she felt a wonderful release as there were no more stories in her head about what was next or what had happened etc etc it was firmly in the past she didn’t need to worry about the next encounter.
It’s what I wish, for my own mental health I wish she wasn’t around.

@Readingtoaster - another stress-finger-eater! It's really bad, I need to stop it. When I run out of hands I start on the skin inside my mouth, and that bleeds as well - gross. It's also really obviously correlated to parent encounters. Work stress, I fidget and tap and destroy pens - my mother make me want to take my literal skin off. I've never been a classic 'self harmer' but I think it's in the same sphere. I guess pain reminds me I exist and am separate, so it's probably a habit I need to keep an eye on. Love to you also. I got a really hefty fidget toy and it does help a little bit.

I do often think of the future. I think I'd be genuinely sad if my mother dropped dead tomorrow. She's clearly not been happy or got what she wants out of life. That said, I think I would have that socially-unacceptable feeling of relief that you mention.