June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you, Attila and Nc4. I shall look into those.
He is recovering at home from an elective surgery.
Thank you again x

Another little update: a few days ago I arranged to meet my parents with my son and husband at a local attraction so they could spend some time with my DS. When we arrived I got my phone out to see which part of the attraction they were at and saw that I had several missed calls from them (my husband also had several) and I had a text message to say that had waited until a certain time ( but that time was still 10mins in the future) but they had left because they must have got the wrong day and of course that's there fault and they take full responsibility- it was all a bit passive aggressive and martyr-ish. To be clear we were bang on time, in fact we were a few mins early.

I then called my mum and acted like a hadn't seen the text and just said 'we're here'. Well, she was hysterical, crying and sobbing (but sounded a bit fake - like there were no tears, just a lot of noise). She kept saying "we've left" and "sorry" and saying my name flowed by "please don't do this, please don't be like this". I was literally just saying we are here do you want to come back or we can arrange something for another day. I had my son in the car and so was being very upbeat and pleasant. Along the lines of, "do you want to pop back granny or shall we arrange to feed the ducks another day instead?". I think she was doing it so my dad, would think I was being unkind to her or shouting at her.

Anyway they came to meet us and my mum looked completely fine, like she hadn't shed a tear. They never mentioned it and just continued the afternoon like everything was normal!!

This is not normal.........I think she needs professional help.....

You really do need to keep well away from your parents because any interactions with them will end like this. They've behaved awfully towards you on many previous occasions too.

Please for your sake and that of your H and son here, drop the rope these two hold out to you. Your own FOG keeps you also mired with them.

You are right in that your mother (and father) need professional help but they are not going to get it because they do not want it.

Mummyopoly, I think you do right to keep the upbeat tone and not get dragged into whatever strange reality they are inhabiting where they are wronged, betrayed and everything is awful when in fact they forgot how to tell the time and keep to an agreed meet-up.

By god though they sound like hard work. You're quite right - normal people aren't like that, and you sound to have handled their, frankly, bizarre behaviour very well. Hope you otherwise enjoyed the ducks and day out.

On FOG - I'm coming to recognise that more in the interactions with my parents. Great little acronym, isn't it. Really does occlude all you see and make safe travel difficult. I think I'm doing better on the fear and guilt. I don't really feel guilty at all, and while I am afraid of my mum often, I can think, what's the worst she's going to do? I'm still alive so far, so there's nothing really to be afraid of.

Obligation, though, that's the killer. I cannot seem to shake off feeling that I have filial duties and that they've got me indebted in a way I can't ever repay. Even if I turned up with a wheelbarrow of cash to repay all the financial and practical help they gave me over the years, they still gave me life. I can't repay that!

@Mummyoply (great name BTW!). It’s pure drama and victimhood with your mum designed to make you feel bad. If you start the ‘you need professional help’ conversation it will end up with her accusing you of something and it will become another drama. You’re doing the right thing by being upbeat and jolly.

I’m back to Hagsville. I had a last minute holiday with my family Tuesday to Friday. And then I’m back. I tense up as soon as I’m home. I had a stupid row with Mr Monkey on Friday night which I’m sure is triggered by my tension.

She’s, of course, being her usual self. On Saturday, we got a letter for her about a hospital appointment. Not me - I don’t open them or engage.

MM on the phone: I’ll drop it round later. (he’d read the letter out over the phone to her)
Hag: I’ll send Slave Son (BIL) round in the car to pick it up.
BIL Slave is disabled, takes ages to get into his car), lives 15 minutes away AND HAS A LIFE. In theory.

He is totally under her thumb - Stockholm Syndrome - and just does as he’s bid. Pointless.

Mr Monkey annoyed.

Fast forward to yesterday. I went out with friends which was lovely. I came back to the news of the nephew’s 18th in Aberdeen planned for next summer. Lovely Sister in law (wife of abusive Golden Boy brother in law who’s disappeared) has arranged it all. Brilliant.

Mr Monkey in one of his ‘I want a normal happy family’ moots the idea of going on the train with The Hag to Aberdeen (plus BIL with my mum acting as chaperone) MM is totally deluded. The Hag won’t go as she thinks everyone should come to her - she hasn’t visited her grandsons (late teens) since they were five or so.

Absolutely fucking ridiculous idea. It will become a massive game with her where it’ll be no and then we’re expected to beg. I’ve told him he can do the new routine with her: ask up to three times and then just tell her that’s decided then, you don’t want to come. End of.

I’m also NOT having this game playing about Christmas. I’m either going to my mum’s or my brother and brother in law and not dealing with her deluded shit anymore.

I’ve increasingly been able to spot the games and patterns. Predictable. Very.

We then got talking about her relationship with her daughters in law. Brother in law isn’t allowed to have relationships and what woman in her right mind would put up with The Hag, especially as she has so much control over him? She doesn’t like me. I can see she’s faked it over the years. Ditto sister in law. Mr Monkey is now waking up to this fact and said ‘oh yeah, she WAS hostile to my ex’. Of course she was. He’s waking up to the fact that her version of events isn’t the true one.

Roll on another weekend away over Bank Holiday weekend, no phone calls and not having my life overshadowed by the Fucking Hag.

I think for anyone dealing with a Narc is to trust your instincts and unpick the true meanings of their words and actions. And step away.

@AttilaTheMeerkat @TirisfalPumpkin @MonkeyfromManchester thank you for understanding and yes you are all right.

@TirisfalPumpkin I really do still have the obligation, not so much the guilt anymore but I do fear my dad may harm himself and blame me and then I will have to live with that.

I have received a text from my mum, just a breezy, how are you all, we love you message!. I really want to reply and ask her why she was so dramatic when we last met and that I think she is unstable and need help - but that's not a good idea right?

@Mummyoply
This is a great place to get support. Sounds like both parents are manipulating you into a place where you feel constant guilt. Keep it bright and breezy. Don’t open up for ‘deep’ conversations is my advice.

Thanks @MonkeyfromManchester great advice. I follow your journey and really admire the way you handle the Hag - you are so clear and strong. I don't know how you do it!

@Mummyoply thank you. This forum is a bloody lifeline for me. So many pennies have dropped about my partner’s fucked up family through reading stories here and people’s very sound advice. I wouldn’t have survived the Reign of The Hag when she was here for 10 weeks.

Mr Monkey is taking her for one of her (many) medical appointments tomorrow which is when he’s going to moot the idea of Summer 2022’s trip to Aberdeen for my nephew’s 18th birthday. The Hag coming along. It’s not going to happen (well, I hope not) and it will just cause a load of drama as she guilt trips us all and is ‘indecisive’ (e.g. wanting a huge drama) . By summer 2022, I will have pushed her under a bus anyway even if she did say yes.

Ha ha @MonkeyfromManchester the way you write is amazing but I completely understand that the situation you are in is not a funny one at all. When the Hag is no longer with this world you should write a book!

@Mummyoply thank you! Humour gets me through. I’m going to write a hilarious obituary when she’s gone.

Hello lovely people. I've dipped in and out of this thread over the years, not even sure if I've posted under this name before. Sometimes it helps to read it all the time and sometimes it helps to not think about it for a while. But this last week or so, I just feel really sad.

I've been NC for over two years now 🎉. And while that has put me in the best place mentally, ever in my life, sometimes I still feel rubbish. Last week DD & I drove past DM - I didn't even realise, DD mentioned it, and now I'm wondering if I would even notice if I passed her in the street.

DD & DS are mid teens and occasionally ask why they don't see them. DD knows more / remembers more / was involved more so often asks questions. I see these as challenges but generally I feel she agrees with me. But I get completely torn between slagging their GP off, being honest, wanting to keep them safe, and wanting to stay NC. And the more they ask, the more memories it dredges up. And not just asking about the disagreements - just usual kid questions like "what were you're summer holidays like" - and I can't find anything good to say, I just remember more bad things!

It's also the anniversary of me setting my new business up. DP said I was wasting my education, I was a disappointment, wasting my life, not going to do well at it, what would people think?! I've made a damn good success of it, and yet all I can hear all the time is these comments in my head.

I don't know what my point is. I just feel sad - sad that I don't recognise my own DM, but equally sad that this doesn't bother me, sad that I have no memories of long fun summers to share with DC, sad that I have no extended family...I don't feel lonely, as I love my own company and have good friends, but sometimes I just feel so alone...

Welcome @copernicium
And hello to all our regular Stately Homies

I recently wrote 2 letters - first to one of my brothers who (last I heard) was clueless about why I was NC. His wife sent a really aggressive email to my DH about it. The 2nd letter - well, I don't even know who I was writing it to. But both letters set out the reasons why I was NC, with numerous examples of the hideous behaviour displayed by various members of my family of origin and how I had been scapegoated.

I have absolutely no intention of sending these letters, but I think writing them was helpful. It helped me to really simplify the reasons why I don't want to have anything to do with any of them. It's helpful to remind myself how and why I got to this position.

When I found and read them today it was a very stark reminder, and I was grateful for it.

I had a really nice day today and started to have thoughts about maybe I should try again with them and all that. I know that this would be madness so I was grateful for the reminder to stay well away.

@Sicario
You’re so right about writing. It’s so powerful to get it all down on paper. It’s right in front of you in black and white. I don’t think I would have survived the Reign of The Hag without writing my thoughts here. Like you say, you don’t need to send a letter, but it’s important to have that conversation with yourself.

@Sicario you know you are right.

Hello all,

I have hesitated greatly over if I should begin to write on here again.
I also contemplated name changing to do so, more so because I don’t feel much like the ‘real anything let alone ‘me’ currently.
It’s as if I’ve taken a massive step back. I know that’s not strictly true but in essence I am still stuck and if I am stuck it’s because that is what I’m choosing. To be explored.
This has really begun to affect my mental health and so I began a few weeks back to seek out this thread. I was so relieved to see it is still going!! It has been in the past very much a life line.
Writing on here often opened up my heart and my thoughts so that I could really see what was really going on with me . Others insights and thoughts often offered a revelation or epiphany.
My heart goes out to all of you that are in this position. Some of you with terrible struggles and hardship of your own. Life is hard enough but for someone like me or any of you, there are no reserves to dip into. The reserves that are built from being born into a family structure that cherishes and loves unconditionally.
In terms of where I’m at now in I am very low contact with all my family and switch into nc when times / feelings become hard for me . This is clearly no longer working for me and I want to explore why I am still lying to myself about letting go. My biggest abuser is DM and DF both manipulative, self serving and DM in particular controlling.
I don’t want to post on here much more after such absence, to appear and dump all my stuff feels wrong. I just wanted to say hello foremost and that I hear all of you.
A Particular warm hello to @AttilaTheMeerkat who found me and rescued me many moons ago.
It is very much an ongoing journey and sometimes a battle but facing the demons head on and calling them out, on paper, on this forum or to their faces is a great form of protection. For me, it means I won’t just internalise their bull crap.

therealSmithfield!!😄 oh my stars you’re back!

I have often wondered how you have got on over the years!.

@therealsmithfield we are your allies. Keep posting and talking here. The worst thing about abusive family is 1) it makes you doubt yourself 2) you compare yourself with others and think ‘it wasn’t that bad’ 3) they keep you enmeshed through the guilt 4) you don’t think you deserve the peace of LC/NC.

Mr Monkey has worked on getting to his place of seeing the Hag for what she is. TBH I’m exhausted by getting him to this place by standing up to her and getting him to see the light. But so so SO worth it.

So, Hag update.

Mr Monkey took her for her hospital appointment, minor moaning.

He mooted the idea of her going to Aberdeen in summer 22 for her grandson’s 18th which she was first was enthusiastic about. Sinking heart when he told me she was considering. Of course, she would have been basking in the thought of being the centre of attention. It would NOT be about her grandson.

The first thing was ‘what will I wear’.

We no longer go through the rigmarole of going clothes shopping as the very idea fuels an attention seeking
drama. Even the suggestion.

MM: well, you know what the option is. We go shopping or we don’t. Closes her down.
HAG: it’ll be expensive.
MM: train is expensive, flying less so.
HAG: well, I’m not flying.
MM: that’s your choice. Closes her down.
HAG: I don’t think I’ll go.
MM: well, we can talk about it in the New Year when they release the train tickets. Closes her down.

£100 each way first class. She’ll LOVE that.

The new rule is we don’t go through a massive drama of attention seeking. We ask her once, maximum twice, and that’s it.

Xmas will be the same. I may wangle it that we go elsewhere e.g. either of my brothers’. She’s NOT going.

But NOT having the drama if we stay in Manchester. Three hour max meal. Xmas will NOT be about her.

The best bit of the 18th Gate was ‘who’s going?’ at the start of the conversation.

MM: me and Monkey.

THAT’S when the ‘doubts’ kicked in. Surprise, surprise.

She would have been thinking, because I’m now absent from the scene of constant miserable drama with her, that I wouldn’t be going. She’s hideous to think this is a win/lose. Lol.

No Fucking way would I miss a holiday in Scotland, miss seeing my lovely sister in law and nephews, and throughly pissing on her bonfire of “my son to MYSELF”.

She does my Fucking head in, but I think I’m outmanoeuvring her. It’s GREAT. Exhausting to get to this point, but GREAT.

LADIES, it’s a military operation second guessing them.

PLUS I’m going to sit in a corner with my sister in law necking gin and get the lowdown on her thoughts on the Hag and the manoeuvres to live in Aberdeen and totally take her over her son when her grandchildren were small. We have, of course, a totally different version of that point in time.

Hag: THEY didn’t want me there. Will never step over their door. Etc etc etc.

She left in a massive huff. Of course.

Code: daughter in law not malleable enough and not willing to be second wife to Golden Boy Narc BIL.

DYING to hear the real story.

Oh @MonkeyfromManchester you have a golden boy narc BIL. Cheers to that . I have one of those too tick ✅ DB1!

My DM is also attention seeking to the endth degree. She’s particularly good at weddings 🙄.

@therealsmithfield the Golden Boy Narcs, eh? Truly a special thing. When they behave badly - if EVER noticed by the parents who’ve created them - there’s a mystified silence as to where it came from. Hag can’t understand how/why Narc son is like that.

I need to know more @therealsmithfield!

I wouldn’t get married to MM until Hag’s 10 feet under for that reason. She would probably ask if I was going.

Impressive ‘closing them down’ skills on display there.

Is there like a bank of stock phrases or responses anywhere? I’m not the best communicator but often I get tongue-tied or just plain shouted over. It’d be good to have the language on hand.

‘That’s your choice’ - good example.

Timing eh

So we’re no contact now. Have done as advised. Been building up to it over the past few days but today just tipped it over the edge. She was screaming at me in the street, accusing me of things that not only I hadn’t done, hadn’t happened at all, like she was inhabiting a completely different reality. So I’ve done it, told not to contact me any more or come to house. Blocked on everything.

I’m not going to be abused any more I guess, but it doesn’t feel like it matters. I feel empty. I’ve systematically failed at every relationship in my life, and that was the very last one. I feel like I’ve been a net negative on the world. I guess at least I paid my taxes.

I’m not going to harm myself or anything (did think about it but I am full of spite and vinegar, I’m going to live). And I’m not really sure where I’m going with this post, other than to document and make a reference point of cutting ties. That’s it, no more family. My kid self is probably cheering, but I would not say it feels triumphant, at all. It feels like abject failure. Even my cat is avoiding me now.

@TirisfalPumpkin - well done on asserting your boundaries and cutting contact with her. The problem is she has no boundaries and screaming at you in the street is not acceptable and I imagine it’s won’t have been the first time this has happened either.
The feelings you have are down to years of abuse leaving you with low self worth and esteem.
You have not failed at anything! You have survived! Survived in spite of your toxic parent . So hold your head up high. Look at yourself in the mirror straight in the eye and say ‘well done , you deserve so much better. From here on in so much better is what you will have’.
Accept it will be raw and you may take steps back and forth. You’ve got this xx

Thank you, @therealsmithfield. Boundaries are what triggered the whole thing. When she had none and I had none, things were mostly OK. Me having some, even basic, non-demanding ones very politely asserted, this she could not deal with at all and just massively blew up.

It was more peaceful, but life without boundaries is pretty unhealthy and I guess I've got to remember that. I've got a visible bodily scar from it already and lots of life mess. It's always been, we'll just get through x event/situation then I'll stand up for myself, but there's always another thing, it never happens. Until it did!

Thank you for responding, I truly appreciate it. It's kind of pathetic I have no-one IRL to talk to but it's good to be able to reach through the magic internet box and connect with someone else who's been there.