I have a theory: red flags, abusers, shark cage, etc

[WineAcademy]

I don't think anyone "attracts" abusive people into their lives.

I think abusers test the boundaries with EVERYONE they come into contact with, and they manage to get close with people who don't recognise the red flags, who maybe weren't taught to have strong boundaries as a child (shark cage analogy), etc.

I think that framing abusive people as hunting down vulnerable people, or framing vulnerable people as attracting abusers, is the wrong way to look at it.

I think abusive people are abusive to basically everyone, everywhere. Just some people recognise the red flags much sooner than others, and they don't allow them any further access.

What do you think of my theory?

I think that's spot on actually.

Totally agree. Thank you.

I think that’s an excellent theory

I think you are spot on. I have found that being brought up as a people pleaser and not being assertive with strong boundaries has let these people in, in the past. I cringe when I think of some of the crap I put up with. Wouldn't get past go now because I am much more aware but learnt the hard way. Now I say no although I am still dealing with some longterm unhealthy friendships that I am backing away from.

Assertiveness should be taught in schools and especially to girls.

I agree

I'm glad you've said this - I agree too.

I think it's between the two. Abusers do go looking and hone their skills at finding the right people. Those with good boundaries are better equipped to avoid them.

And one problem I have with your whole theory being accepted in isolation is then it becomes the fault of the abused for not having strong enough boundaries, or the fault of their family for not teaching them better, or society for the same reason. I had a very toxic and abusive friendship. My boundaries were trampled. Was it my fault? No because she was great at finding people in unusual and stressful situations, and DH was away in a war zone. She did hunt her friends down.

So yes to teaching the red flags, boundaries etc at school. No to blaming anyone other than abusive twats for their abuse.

I agree with you.

That is really interesting, and I definitely think there is some truth in it. I wonder if that's why sometimes we just instinctively don't like or trust someone, even if we couldn't explain why. It's a subconscious response to that behaviour.

@elfycat

I think it's between the two. Abusers do go looking and hone their skills at finding the right people. Those with good boundaries are better equipped to avoid them.

And one problem I have with your whole theory being accepted in isolation is then it becomes the fault of the abused for not having strong enough boundaries, or the fault of their family for not teaching them better, or society for the same reason. I had a very toxic and abusive friendship. My boundaries were trampled. Was it my fault? No because she was great at finding people in unusual and stressful situations, and DH was away in a war zone. She did hunt her friends down.

So yes to teaching the red flags, boundaries etc at school. No to blaming anyone other than abusive twats for their abuse.

This is a great point, thank you.

My theory needs this kind of nuance!

Spot on.

Unfortunately lots of people have no idea that these sort of people are a thing and so never really learn to spot them.

But these sorts can break down anyone. They are not fussy who they target.

I do think the just being a nice,normal person who is good though puts you more at risk. Because good people tend to just assume goodness in others.

@elfycat

I think it's between the two. Abusers do go looking and hone their skills at finding the right people. Those with good boundaries are better equipped to avoid them.

And one problem I have with your whole theory being accepted in isolation is then it becomes the fault of the abused for not having strong enough boundaries, or the fault of their family for not teaching them better, or society for the same reason. I had a very toxic and abusive friendship. My boundaries were trampled. Was it my fault? No because she was great at finding people in unusual and stressful situations, and DH was away in a war zone. She did hunt her friends down.

So yes to teaching the red flags, boundaries etc at school. No to blaming anyone other than abusive twats for their abuse.

I agree with this more. Abusers know exactly who they can use straight away unfortunately and they will target them. I've seen it happen to people I know, the abuser wouldn't try to rope me into it, they'd try and stay on my good side knowing that I knew what they were really like while dragging in the other person. I'd try to warn the victim, but you can't force someone to listen unfortunately.

@WineAcademy

I usually have incredibly strong boundaries - that in itself is a challenge to some abusers. I had the misfortune to have to deal with my 'friend' and also PIL who wanted nothing more than to put me in my place (misogynistic bigots) at the same time, while suffering from PND.

Came out of it with cast iron boundaries (and NC) and have reflected on how I ended up in that situation. It was bad people taking advantage the second they perceived weakness. I wasn't to blame for that.

This is exactly what is explained during domestic abuse training.

I kind of agree but I wouldn't say abusive people abuse everyone they come in contact with, i think they'll abuse those who won't put them in their place straight away. I've seen that a lot over the years in work situations where an abusive person will be horrible to some people but the ones who pulled them up on it or treated them the same back they suddenly started treating those people normally

I think it's a mixture too.

Abused people are those who don't have the boundaries, who are people pleasers. Strong boundaried people just walk away. Aren't taken in by people. Can spot a red flag from miles away.

But abusers are also very adept at identifying victims. A counsellor on here said that she can spot the abused people in a room of people, so she was sure that abusers can. I think that's what the specialists also think. and I agree. (and even if they can't spot it straight away, I'm sure they can make that assessment pretty quickly).

It's funny, I have a friend who is the strongest, most boundaried person I know. She has straight away spotted abusive people who I've dated, even before that became apparent. Have been absolutely immune to their charm.

I think it's a mixture, too.

I think that some people have no idea about red flags and all that, simply because that kind of thing is outside anything they've experienced before.

Yes, I think it's something like that. I have wondered why some people always seem to end up with abusers and I think I have felt it was something like that - it's not that their victims 'attract' them (which is a very blame-y way of looking at it), it's their abusers 'recognising' someone who they can get into their grip.

@AryaStarkWolf

I kind of agree but I wouldn't say abusive people abuse everyone they come in contact with, i think they'll abuse those who won't put them in their place straight away. I've seen that a lot over the years in work situations where an abusive person will be horrible to some people but the ones who pulled them up on it or treated them the same back they suddenly started treating those people normally

I think it works the other way about too though because if they realise you see them fir what they are, it makes you a threat to them and they will attack you all guns blazing, nust as they would someone they see as an easy target.

@MorriseysGladioli absolutely - I was so naive after my marriage ended and walked right into the arms of an emotionally abusive arsehole.

I had no idea about boundaries or red flags ( or lovebombing or silent treatment) having been with my ExH since I was 18. I'm so grateful to the many Mumsnet threads which opened my eyes to his behaviour.

Great theory OP

[quote elfycat]@WineAcademy

I usually have incredibly strong boundaries - that in itself is a challenge to some abusers. I had the misfortune to have to deal with my 'friend' and also PIL who wanted nothing more than to put me in my place (misogynistic bigots) at the same time, while suffering from PND.

Came out of it with cast iron boundaries (and NC) and have reflected on how I ended up in that situation. It was bad people taking advantage the second they perceived weakness. I wasn't to blame for that.[/quote]
Yeah, I get that - I'm not trying to blame anyone for being abused, only the abuser is to blame, 100% of the time.

I am still learning to have strong boundaries with people after years of being trained to let people do whatever, whenever, however - in every area of my life. I didn't have a strong 'shark cage' because I was raised to always doubt my own feelings and give way to everyone first, as an important way to be 'kind.'

My partner, however, (also a woman) developed much stronger boundaries at a much younger age than me, and she's run into arseholes of one degree or another throughout her life, too. There's plenty of them about.

Having strong personal boundaries isn't going to protect us from all the abusers out there, but it could mean we don't marry one, or have children with one, or we move on from a club/group/job when we recognise the situation, rather than getting sucked into something that is very difficult to extricate oneself out of if/when we do notice the truth of their behaviour.

I generally agree but you could toss into the pot ‘red lines’ and consequences. Abusers and cheeky fuckers in life generally push at boundaries but people have different elasticity on boundaries and their red lines are set at different points. Someone might lend money to someone three times before issuing a consequence - whilst another would do after the first misdemeanour. We can all learn to shift our red lines and sense people who are overly intense, flattering, flaky, demanding - and then swerve them.

I think it works the other way about too though because if they realise you see them fir what they are, it makes you a threat to them and they will attack you all guns blazing, nust as they would someone they see as an easy target.

Yeah that's true too

I think it works the other way about too though because if they realise you see them fir what they are, it makes you a threat to them and they will attack you all guns blazing, nust as they would someone they see as an easy target.

Yes this happens but it’s not the reason not to deal with a difficult person and let them trample on you repeatedly. It just means that you have to handle them calmly and assertively. Be ready to weather the storm of words or if it’s worse take any other actions. Or choose to not comply and swerve.