I have a theory: red flags, abusers, shark cage, etc

[WineAcademy]

I don't think anyone "attracts" abusive people into their lives.

I think abusers test the boundaries with EVERYONE they come into contact with, and they manage to get close with people who don't recognise the red flags, who maybe weren't taught to have strong boundaries as a child (shark cage analogy), etc.

I think that framing abusive people as hunting down vulnerable people, or framing vulnerable people as attracting abusers, is the wrong way to look at it.

I think abusive people are abusive to basically everyone, everywhere. Just some people recognise the red flags much sooner than others, and they don't allow them any further access.

What do you think of my theory?

@Umberellatheweatha, 100% agree.

I was raised to think the best of people but my family generally have very strong boundaries however because I was intuitive and empathic I somehow didn't learn to trust my instincts.

I can vividly recall my instincts screaming at me but because the abuse was not concrete, I ignored the behaviours. I didn't have the words to name the behaviour, tbf neither did family or friends...gaslighting, manipulation. I couldn't comprehend that some people were controlling as it made no sense that someone would want to control another person.

I judged people on my behaviours not toxic behaviours because I didn't have the knowledge.

[quote gelatodipistacchio]@KatySun I think that's the point of the OP - the people who say no are unattractive to abusers. The ones who say yes look to be good victims. Either way, abusers are always testing boundaries.[/quote]
But abusers dont try to abuse everyone.
For a start they are not trying to have an intimate relationship with every single person they meet.
Also in the early stages its all about grooming their chosen victim.
Image is everything, the nice guy, they do tend to move very fast and it all seems super romantic ( I agree with the previous comments on that)
Everyone talks about red flags like its really obvious and its just a matter of saying no.
Well some women dont see the red flags / abuse starting until they are trapped by pregnancy or marriage.

Everyone talks about red flags like its really obvious and its just a matter of saying no.
Well some women dont see the red flags / abuse starting until they are trapped by pregnancy or marriage.

And this is why I like the shark cage analogy. I wasn't raised with good boundaries, I thought the actions of my exh were romantic and sweet and funny, but looking back on it now, he was being a dick and constantly pushing up against the weak/nonexistent 'bars' of my 'cage' to see how much I would accept.

Slowly but surely, I became isolated from friends and family, had no career, no qualifications, had baby after baby... it did creep up on me. I didn't notice for a long time, and whenever I felt something was wrong, I thought it was my fault.

I accepted a lot from him, up until the point he grabbed hold of my neck and slapped me across the face. Something snapped in me then.

And this is why I like the shark cage analogy. I wasn't raised with good boundaries, I thought the actions of my exh were romantic and sweet and funny, but looking back on it now, he was being a dick and constantly pushing up against the weak/nonexistent 'bars' of my 'cage' to see how much I would accept.

I was the same, my father was very controlling of my mother and she was 'doing her duty' by taking it. I didn't know any different. My then fiance raped me when I was asleep (not violently) and although it didn't sit well with me I loved him then so didn't question it until we were splitting up nearly 30 years later (when he immediately snapped back "I thought you were awake!" not even questioning what event I was talking about ...).

Slowly but surely, I became isolated from friends and family .......... it did creep up on me. I didn't notice for a long time, and whenever I felt something was wrong, I thought it was my fault.

We married within months of meeting because he was going hundreds of miles away to the middle of nowhere for work and "the locals won't accept an unmarried couple". After a few months he was undeniably violent towards me and I couldn't get away safely that night as there was no public transport so I had to stay and ended up apologising for 'winding him up'. He didn't speak to me for three days, claiming he was ashamed of himself but I know now it was because he was giving me the silent treatment.

So many things happened over the years but it wasn't until I discovered "FUCKING MUMSNET" as he called it that I realised the extent of his abuse and that it wasn't okay. That's when he ramped it up because that's when I started having stronger boundaries.

I don't think he did hunt me down in the beginning but I do agree about the shark cage thing and I now know my boundaries were pretty hopeless then due to my upbringing.

Even when we learn to spot red flags and avoid abusers like the plague they just move on to the next unsuspecting victim - what I want to know is how can we stop them from wanting to abuse in the first place? Is it even possible?

I agree, all this should be taught in schools, how to behave and signs to spot in a relationship.

My ex wasn't ever physically violent.
His tactic was emotional stealth shredding.

All that hot and cold, and chopping and changing.
It blew my.mind, because I had never experienced it before.

I agree with your theory but I still think abusers are very astute at identifying people to abuse. I also think its easy to miss warning signs with abusers because if you don't have an abusers mindset then you will not attribute sinister motives to some of their "red flag" behaviours. Which decent person behaves in a calculated way to hurt someone they claim to care about? It sounds crazy and paranoid to assert such a thing but abusers do just that.

My ex husband would make some very insightful comments about people's characters and vulnerabilities, often people he had just met and nearly always women, I thought some of the comments he made were a bit odd in a sort of, why would you notice that much less comment on it, way. After the marriage was over I realised he was always scanning the crowd for victims, the realisation he had so little empathy and was hard wired to exploit was terrifying.

However I do credit him for teaching me about boundaries, it was a very hard lesson but I have rock solid boundaries now. I always describe my situation as one of volunteer not victim because I had poor boundaries and projected my basic decency onto someone who was anything but decent.

I remember a woman on a Jimmy saville documentary saying a priest just knew she had been abused previously so knew he could target her. She said it so matter of fact.
It was like a lightbulb going on in my head, I can see us a mile off so if I can, so can abusers.

So I do think it’s a mixture, I get what your saying and I do agree, but I also think if your in tune you know.

I think that's also part of their charm, when you first meet.
It's as if they are so tuned into what really makes you tick.

and projected my basic decency onto someone who was anything but decent

This is something I have learned. I assumed everyone was fundamentally decent, maybe flawed due to childhood traumas but I didn't know people existed who deliberately sought to exploit others.

My parents never spoke of this so I"m not sure where you are supposed to learn??

From a friendship group it seems 10-15% of partners are exploitative/abusive so I think the victims of abusers are targetted for 2 reasons, firstly they have something the abuser wants and secondly they are unaware or lacking in knowledge.

I now have good boundaries..its akin to online fraud, maybe you didn't realise how phising work but once you know you put security measures in place.

OP, you are right, and I think it's really counter-productive when people accuse people like you of 'victim blaming'. It is no more victim-blaming than pointing out that if you leave your windows open when you aren't home, you are more at risk of being burgled.

It doesn't make what the burglars do ok and it doesn't let them off the hook. But it does say that there are reasons why some houses are safer than others.

I've locked my metaphorical doors now - and the red flags are so obvious when they happen now. I look back at my first meeting with the abuser, and nowadays I'd have walked at his second sentence.

And something I see in recovery groups all the time, and also on Mumsnet, is that seeing the red flags isn't enough. If you are not self--partnered, the urge is to explain them away - so much of the MN 'well-meaning bad advice' is this in action.

And something I see in recovery groups all the time, and also on Mumsnet, is that seeing the red flags isn't enough. If you are not self--partnered, the urge is to explain them away - so much of the MN 'well-meaning bad advice' is this in action.

Can you expand on this @ChristmasFluff please - do you mean you need to have a zero tolerance policy and that others inadvertently minimise issues?

@ChristmasFluff, I not 100% sure everyone grows up to know of the need for boundaries, unlike burglaries.

I also see in my children a difference in personality that makes some people more vulnerable, one is just a little "nicer", more trusting and very empathic. Another child seems to be more cynical of people and less trusting and doesn't give many 2nd chances. I know the empathic one needs greater guidance on trusting their instinct and feeling OK about saying no to people. Personality, nurture, knowledge and luck seem to be a factors in someone noticing red flags and choosing an emotionally healthy partner.

@MorriseysGladioli

My ex wasn't ever physically violent. His tactic was emotional stealth shredding.

All that hot and cold, and chopping and changing.
It blew my.mind, because I had never experienced it before.

Emotional stealth shredding is such a great way of describing what I went through. I'm another who had years of mostly lovely before the abuse ramped up post marriage. Obviously with hindsight I can now see the red flags were there and I allowed them to be explained away by him or would blame myself.

I thought my boundaries were ok at the time but I see now how in reality they really weren't. I come from a dysfunctional family with iffy boundaries too.

I think the Shark Cage analogy is the best I've seen so far that explains how abusers go about finding victims.

I agree with a PP who said that assertiveness, what healthy relationships look like and how to spot red flags and deal with them should be taught to girls in schools. I have a few thoughts about it in addition and I am very women centric usually.

I agree, it's really important for girls in particular because of how society is set up to have women come secondary to men but I actually think it's important to have boys in those classes too.

If we didn't teach the boys the same ^, we leave out those boys who are likely to be abused themselves and could benefit from those classes.
If we leave the boys out of the classes and the general discussion about healthy relationships, it just seems to me it would not be talked about between the sexes. It would be firmly put under the heading of "for women, about women" and I think it would have next to no weight for the boys because they'd think it didn't apply to them and things would continue much as they are.

Interesting thread. I was in an abusive relationship years ago.

Now, the problem I have is that I can spot narcissists too easily. There have been two women in my life who because I didn't blow smoke up their asses, have set out to covertly exclude me from a group. The two women didn't know each other but their behavior was identical. Both of them love bombed everybody else around them and were like ice to me. Both had covert ways of manipulating the social dynamics around us so that I was trying to edge in. It was amazing.

So, that's the recurring problem I'm left with now. The first scapegoating narc left my work thankfully but the second is still in my life and still trying to exclude me from all chat/discusions etc.

@Templetreebreeze

I disagree Abusers are experts in grooming and manipulation. They simply dont abuse everyone and even in abusive relationships they are not abusive all the time. They can spot someone who will be vulnerable within minutes and the pushing of boundaries can be incredibly subtle, they are masters of manipulation. They are often people who others will be gobsmacked that they are abusive "such a nice bloke" They will pick women they know can be manipulated or target women who have strong boundaries as its a challenge. Its drip, drip, drip, the frog in hot water etc Its like a key fitting a lock. Thats not victim blaming at all

this

If you are not self--partnered
I like the idea of being self-partnered! (if it means what I think it means)

Being taught about abusers’ tactics, boundaries, red flags is only necessary for those who, for whatever reason, aren’t naturally able to sense wrong behaviour in others.

If you’ve had a really stable, secure and loving upbringing then you instinctively know. Even then occasionally abusers will, as PPs have said, take you on as a challenge.

I agree that some people have implicit knowledge of how abusers operate but having explicit knowledge is also very helpful

I think people are getting slightly too bogged down in the red flag spotting as The Shark Cage.
The bars of the shark cage are also our boundaries and self esteem, our rights and our needs which are built with good parenting.
In abusive childhoods the child is simply an extension of the parent, a tool to be used to prop up the parents fragile self esteem.
These children grow into adults who dont have a strong sense of self, their rights, needs or boundaries.
They are susceptible to abuse from others.
They are needy and what others would see as abuse they see as love because thats what they know.

you’ve had a really stable, secure and loving upbringing then you instinctivelyknow. Even then occasionally abusers will, as PPs have said, take you on as a challenge.

This is an excellent point however even if poorly parented women/ people recognise there is something " off" they have been taught to override their own feelings and shamed for them so they dont respond appropriately.
Some abusers love a woman with firm boundaries as over turning them makes them feel invincible.

Some people are rescuers and it’s almost like they get something out of tending to a “wounded bird”. Their self esteem is low so they receive a reward (ie an internal boost that doesn’t last) when the unpredictable target of their efforts actually responds in the way the helper wants. The wounded bird will never be healed unless HE takes the steps personally to heal himself. But the rescuer thinks “next time/if I just do this/if I love them enough”.
Psychology calls this random reinforcement