I have a theory: red flags, abusers, shark cage, etc

[WineAcademy]

I don't think anyone "attracts" abusive people into their lives.

I think abusers test the boundaries with EVERYONE they come into contact with, and they manage to get close with people who don't recognise the red flags, who maybe weren't taught to have strong boundaries as a child (shark cage analogy), etc.

I think that framing abusive people as hunting down vulnerable people, or framing vulnerable people as attracting abusers, is the wrong way to look at it.

I think abusive people are abusive to basically everyone, everywhere. Just some people recognise the red flags much sooner than others, and they don't allow them any further access.

What do you think of my theory?

@HelenHywater

I think it's a mixture too.

Abused people are those who don't have the boundaries, who are people pleasers. Strong boundaried people just walk away. Aren't taken in by people. Can spot a red flag from miles away.

But abusers are also very adept at identifying victims. A counsellor on here said that she can spot the abused people in a room of people, so she was sure that abusers can. I think that's what the specialists also think. and I agree. (and even if they can't spot it straight away, I'm sure they can make that assessment pretty quickly).

It's funny, I have a friend who is the strongest, most boundaried person I know. She has straight away spotted abusive people who I've dated, even before that became apparent. Have been absolutely immune to their charm.

@HelenHywater

Do you have a link to that please? Sounds really interesting x

I disagree
Abusers are experts in grooming and manipulation.
They simply dont abuse everyone and even in abusive relationships they are not abusive all the time.
They can spot someone who will be vulnerable within minutes and the pushing of boundaries can be incredibly subtle, they are masters of manipulation.
They are often people who others will be gobsmacked that they are abusive "such a nice bloke"
They will pick women they know can be manipulated or target women who have strong boundaries as its a challenge.
Its drip, drip, drip, the frog in hot water etc
Its like a key fitting a lock.
Thats not victim blaming at all

Spot on

@Templetreebreeze

I disagree Abusers are experts in grooming and manipulation. They simply dont abuse everyone and even in abusive relationships they are not abusive all the time. They can spot someone who will be vulnerable within minutes and the pushing of boundaries can be incredibly subtle, they are masters of manipulation. They are often people who others will be gobsmacked that they are abusive "such a nice bloke" They will pick women they know can be manipulated or target women who have strong boundaries as its a challenge. Its drip, drip, drip, the frog in hot water etc Its like a key fitting a lock. Thats not victim blaming at all

Yes this is true.

I’ve always been tough but I have fairly lax boundaries ... and have been abused and assaulted by predatory men and bullies m.
I e toughened my boundaries but I’m not changing who I am!!
But yes, it’s the abuser who goes looking for the opportunity to play their fucked up games. Every time

Yeah good theory, I have very strong boundaries which is why I also don't have many friends at all. I have a zero BS tolerance and women who try with the any form of drama or gossip just get the eyebrow raise from me and I time out.

Also in a relationship (bit always been this was just to be clear I've had to learn it) I say how I feel not bury it and I call out bad behaviour and make it very clear I don't need them I choose to be with.

In the past I wanted everyone to like me, would seek out and need male sexual attention to feel validation and worth anything. But something changed in me and I don't have those kind of ppl in my life anymore. If anything they are afraid of me because I "see" them for what they are.

@Templetreebreeze

I disagree Abusers are experts in grooming and manipulation. They simply dont abuse everyone and even in abusive relationships they are not abusive all the time. They can spot someone who will be vulnerable within minutes and the pushing of boundaries can be incredibly subtle, they are masters of manipulation. They are often people who others will be gobsmacked that they are abusive "such a nice bloke" They will pick women they know can be manipulated or target women who have strong boundaries as its a challenge. Its drip, drip, drip, the frog in hot water etc Its like a key fitting a lock. Thats not victim blaming at all

I think is true but then there are different types of abusers. Some are like this.

Some are just nasty arseholes, that everyone can see is and arse, and and everyone is telling their friend to dump his sorry arse, but the friend doesn't.

Grooming is normal human behaviour. Everyone does it. It's when the intentions are bad that we notice it, but we all groom each other. Beginning of relationships, during job interviews, friendliness to wait staff, gold star charts, etc etc.

But nobody would ever be abused - not ever - if an abuser didn't choose to hurt another person.

There is nothing wrong with someone or inherently vulnerable about someone that "leads" to abuse. Abusers are 100% at fault.

I do think they push boundaries with everyone, and I think they back off when a target doesn't behave as they'd like.

The theory that abused people are noticeable somehow doesn't really ring true to me, especially since 60%-odd of social workers have been abused themselves. People from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all professions have been subjected to abuse. There isn't a "tell."

Abusers often have great superficial charm. Almost like animal magnetism. A lot of people fall for it.

Yes I agree that some people/ men are unpleasant and just not very nice to everyone.
This is different to targeted abuse though.
I think its a dangerous game saying all abusers are abusive to everyone but the people with strong boundaries handle it.

Absolutely not how abuse plays out.
They watch and wait, the victim might tell him about previous abuse.
The abuser will observe quietly and pick their victim while appearing lovely to everyone else and initially to the victim.
Its part of the game.
Isolating their victim, "no one will believe you"
Street Angel / House Devil

The theory that abused people are noticeable somehow doesn't really ring true to me, especially since 60%-odd of social workers have been abused themselves. People from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all professions have been subjected to abuse. There isn't a tell

I can spot it a mile off if someone has not been through counselling/ recovery and sometimes if they have.
Literally within seconds
However Im trained but essentially the abuser looks for signs that someone might be vulnerable and then pushes against boundaries in small ways at first to test the waters so to speak.
I do agree that it is 100% the fault of the abuser though.

@Templetreebreeze

The theory that abused people are noticeable somehow doesn't really ring true to me, especially since 60%-odd of social workers have been abused themselves. People from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all professions have been subjected to abuse. There isn't a tell

I can spot it a mile off if someone has not been through counselling/ recovery and sometimes if they have.
Literally within seconds
However Im trained but essentially the abuser looks for signs that someone might be vulnerable and then pushes against boundaries in small ways at first to test the waters so to speak.
I do agree that it is 100% the fault of the abuser though.

Could you let us in on some of the tells?

I feel things like slouching and appearing a little lost in thought in ones own world might draw these sorts in. I'm not an unconfident person but I find a lot of these sorts approach when I'm 'checked out' shall we say. Basically, when I dont look on my guard.

I'd guess things like over apologising or failing to make eye contact ect would draw them in to. Basically anything that makes you look insecure or overly kind.

I would urge you and anyone to work on your self esteem and look for help/ counselling if you feel you have issues.
I think its important to remember that not all victims of abuse have experienced previous abuse/ trauma but are still targeted

I have thought a lot about this theory, having been a victim of abuse myself also. I agree with both lines of thought - an abuser will find a gap in any victim's boundaries to gain control but if you think about it, we all exist as people on a spectrum of 'victimness' or 'abusiveness' in theory. Some victims can also become abusive although it tends to be a reactive abuse situation but could also be non reactive. The advice given out there is generally black or white and can come across as 'victim blaming' etc to the person suffering the abuse. I think it's a complex intermix of personality types and situations which can't be quantified that easily. Because the 'advice out there' is railroading and aiming us to classify ourselves as either abuser or victim we have trained ourselves to identify mainly with either one of these labels. Self awareness seems to be a trendy concept nowadays which isn't all that easy to do in reality. People are complex creatures, as highlighted by the 'no real answer' nature v. nuture debate. The same applies here. Loads of things influence us in life and having 'boundaries' is only one small part of a complex picture. Hey even the top bods in psychiatry are working on mental health, how we interact with each other, different theories come out all the time. No one has the true definitive answer. Learning about the human being and their mindset is about as complicated as classifying the intricacies of a snowflake and how quickly and likely it is to melt due to it's individual structure. I think it's a really interesting topic and I do think that some of the modern pop psychology and theories out there could sometimes be doing more damage to people than good.

@FrozenVag I can't remember which thread it was on I'm afraid. Don Hennessey in his book also says this - abusers can identify their victims.

I do agree with @Templetreebreeze . But that doesn't make it victim blaming - it's still the abuser doing the abusing. And we, the victims, still have the power and the agency to learn to spot abuse and run. If you've been abused in one relationship, you owe it to yourself to learn what you can do, what you did, to enable that, and to learn from that experience and make the changes necessary.

Excellent addition to the thread @wobblywinelover, thank you.

@Templetreebreeze

I disagree Abusers are experts in grooming and manipulation. They simply dont abuse everyone and even in abusive relationships they are not abusive all the time. They can spot someone who will be vulnerable within minutes and the pushing of boundaries can be incredibly subtle, they are masters of manipulation. They are often people who others will be gobsmacked that they are abusive "such a nice bloke" They will pick women they know can be manipulated or target women who have strong boundaries as its a challenge. Its drip, drip, drip, the frog in hot water etc Its like a key fitting a lock. Thats not victim blaming at all

I agree with this.

I also think that even the strongest, most assertive person, who wouldn’t normally take any shit, can let their guard down and loosen their boundaries when they care deeply for someone.

I also think some abusive partners are very good at concealing certain behaviours until they get to a point where that person has fallen for them. Once they know that person is hooked, then the red flag behaviour comes out and that person may actually see those red flags, but try and ignore them because they’ve already fallen for that person.

So some abusers are extremely good at playing the long game. Because they have to, if they want to work their abusive magic on someone who wouldn’t normally put up with that kind of shit and could easily see through their behaviour and challenge it. As Temple says, it’s almost like a challenge for them.

@WineAcademy you're welcome! Feeling in one of my philosophical moods, I definitely think wine isn't that bad after all ;-)

@wobblywinelover

I have thought a lot about this theory, having been a victim of abuse myself also. I agree with both lines of thought - an abuser will find a gap in any victim's boundaries to gain control but if you think about it, we all exist as people on a spectrum of 'victimness' or 'abusiveness' in theory. Some victims can also become abusive although it tends to be a reactive abuse situation but could also be non reactive. The advice given out there is generally black or white and can come across as 'victim blaming' etc to the person suffering the abuse. I think it's a complex intermix of personality types and situations which can't be quantified that easily. Because the 'advice out there' is railroading and aiming us to classify ourselves as either abuser or victim we have trained ourselves to identify mainly with either one of these labels. Self awareness seems to be a trendy concept nowadays which isn't all that easy to do in reality. People are complex creatures, as highlighted by the 'no real answer' nature v. nuture debate. The same applies here. Loads of things influence us in life and having 'boundaries' is only one small part of a complex picture. Hey even the top bods in psychiatry are working on mental health, how we interact with each other, different theories come out all the time. No one has the true definitive answer. Learning about the human being and their mindset is about as complicated as classifying the intricacies of a snowflake and how quickly and likely it is to melt due to it's individual structure. I think it's a really interesting topic and I do think that some of the modern pop psychology and theories out there could sometimes be doing more damage to people than good.

All very good points

I think if abusers were abusive to everyone, they would be much easier to spot! In fact, quite a lot of what we are brought up to believe is romantic behaviour can slide into control. Here, let me buy you this dress, it would look lovely on you; let me choose the restaurant and drive you there and pay, this dish is lovely, why don’t you have that?; let me call you every day to see what you have been doing, I care about you; spend time with me and not that friend who is a bit weird, don’t you think? I love you; your hair suits you better longer; your glasses don’t really suit you what about this pair? I care about your appearance; I don’t like those jeans, I don’t think you should wear them; who is George? Why is he calling you?; you are putting on a bit of weight, I preferred you thinner, don’t eat so much cheese; did you dust this properly, look it is still dirty; my ex was crazy, you are not like her at all ... all dressed up as love and care until then you find that your days are organised around what he wants to do, your wardrobe is chosen for what he likes, your hair is the length he likes, you are making sure the food he likes is in the fridge, you have not spoken to George or ‘weird’ friend in weeks and weeks and weeks and if you do, he is there. And if you try to challenge it, then the behaviour turns and you wonder what you have done wrong, and want to get it back to loving, so you acquiesce some more, or if you don’t acquiesce you are unfriendly or aggressive or any number of negative names and there is conflict (your fault for not being nice), but of course it does not happen in quick succession like I have written it but as a previous poster said, a bit at a time, until you are in danger of losing your own identity, by which time you might have a baby and a marriage and then of course, why would you break up this perfect family?

The best advice I have seen on MN is how does someone react when you say no.

I had a lovely relationship at uni -the only one I ever had and I 'blew' it as they disapproved (parents) that he wasn't ambitious enough etc I realize now the snide digs they made acted on my childhood instincts that I didn't really know what I wanted. He was wonderful.
They never wanted me to have anyone else.

I've looked for pricks and controlling arses ever since and then I run away.

@KatySun

I think if abusers were abusive to everyone, they would be much easier to spot! In fact, quite a lot of what we are brought up to believe is romantic behaviour can slide into control. Here, let me buy you this dress, it would look lovely on you; let me choose the restaurant and drive you there and pay, this dish is lovely, why don’t you have that?; let me call you every day to see what you have been doing, I care about you; spend time with me and not that friend who is a bit weird, don’t you think? I love you; your hair suits you better longer; your glasses don’t really suit you what about this pair? I care about your appearance; I don’t like those jeans, I don’t think you should wear them; who is George? Why is he calling you?; you are putting on a bit of weight, I preferred you thinner, don’t eat so much cheese; did you dust this properly, look it is still dirty; my ex was crazy, you are not like her at all ... all dressed up as love and care until then you find that your days are organised around what he wants to do, your wardrobe is chosen for what he likes, your hair is the length he likes, you are making sure the food he likes is in the fridge, you have not spoken to George or ‘weird’ friend in weeks and weeks and weeks and if you do, he is there. And if you try to challenge it, then the behaviour turns and you wonder what you have done wrong, and want to get it back to loving, so you acquiesce some more, or if you don’t acquiesce you are unfriendly or aggressive or any number of negative names and there is conflict (your fault for not being nice), but of course it does not happen in quick succession like I have written it but as a previous poster said, a bit at a time, until you are in danger of losing your own identity, by which time you might have a baby and a marriage and then of course, why would you break up this perfect family?

The best advice I have seen on MN is how does someone react when you say no.

Totally. My last relationship counsellor said 'test early' say no and see what they do -do they justify themselves or respect it?

@KatySun I think that's the point of the OP - the people who say no are unattractive to abusers. The ones who say yes look to be good victims. Either way, abusers are always testing boundaries.

I think there are lots of different kind of abusers.
I also think sometimes (but not always) there is a link between being vunruable and actually being the abuser. Certainly my ex husband came across as vulnerable I don't think he was putting it on, not at all. He was lost, he also wasn't abusive to start with, but certainly became that way. The flip side to his vulnerable and uncertainty was anger and control. A very complicated and damaged person. But this took many many years to come out.
As with all human traits it's not clear cut. I think it's important not to lump everyone together.

Agree, I guess my point was that red flags are not always obvious because of what can be dressed up culturally as loving behaviour, therefore when to say no is not always obvious.