Is it just me or does most men suck?

[peanutttttt]

Exactly just that. I really hate dating now a days, because you just never know if someone's intentions are genuine. Like how do you know anymore? Men of all ages just suck and at this point I have given up. I went on a date with this man, the connection was great before the date and the date was great. I even got a kiss at the end of it but never heard from him again. Like how weird! I don't dwell on it. It's just annoying I wish people would be honest now. I can't stand it. How's everyone else's dating life going? Because my love life is an absolute joke.

I guess what I'm asking you @BuggerBognor is your situation sounds very appealing to me. The problem is if lots of women feel the same then that just exacerbates the pay disparity between men and women.

[quote BuggerBognor]**@coronaway* I think it’s inevitable that pay disparity will continue because more women do* give up work. (It’s not a fashionable view, and I can’t defend it, but ime women are better are taking care of children generally). The unfairness comes on divorce when the (usually) father pays minimum CM if she’s lucky, she’s surviving on a smaller salary and the court just shrugs and says “needs are met” because we can’t have any unfairness towards the poor menz. I think that a joint decision where one parent steps down should result in a more equitable split recognizing that sacrifice in salary, pension etc. Spusal maintenance is rare as rocking horse shit these days and - unless extreme - only women pay the price for a joint decision on how best to raise the kids.[/quote]
That implies the pay disparity is inevitable and cannot be changed.

@Oreo01

The point about pay disparity is based on client meetings where women said (i.e. women at the clients in senior positions) that they didn't feel there was a pay disparity in their work force aside from the execs all being men which skewed their figures. A lot of the office based middle management were women, like HR and finance etc.

I'm not saying this to be deliberately awkward itsjust based on what I was told and what I understand the drivers to be. If there's evidence to the contrary please share it.

So what ? Your basing your incorrect assumptions on your experience In a workplace How about reading actual statistics put out by actual researchers who look at millions of women across various jobs

Also why is it you simply refuse to acknowledge all the male privilege points raised. Which of the male privileges I listed do you feel men ( or you specifically ) don’t have
Have you bothered to take ten minutes to look into the many many privileges you have

Your workplace isn’t representative of anything but one tiny workplace perhaps you can explain some of these statements by The World Health Organisation, considering you think things are so skewed in favour of women ....

Despite some important progress to change this in recent years, in no country have women achieved economic equality with men, and women are still more likely than men to live in poverty.
Lower-paid, unpaid, undervalued: gender inequality in work

Unpaid care work. Women do at least twice as much unpaid care work, such as childcare and housework, as men – sometimes 10 times as much, often on top of their paid work. The value of this work each year is estimated at at least $10.8 trillion – more than three times the size of the global tech industry.

@BuggerBognor

It probably is, I think - it’s a thorny issue. If men or women want/need to do a job that is shorter hours, more flexible, fewer/no weekends and enough leave to reasonably cover school hols, it’s inevitable (and fair) that people doing those jobs are paid less. We need to encourage the view that those jobs don’t necessarily need to be done by women, making childcare affordable so that women who want to can keep working, incentivize flexibility etc, but ultimately it’s still often the woman who takes the financial hit. But that is a choice made by both parents that (imo) should have financial consequences on separation.

The fathers that do want access to their children almost always want it when it fits in with them so that they can maintain their careers . Don’t know many who are prepared to go part time and share the childcare with the mother . No they gripe that they don’t get a ‘ fair go ‘ but fair is almost always on their terms Stuff the mum and if she is screwed over by having to find after school care or a job with short school hours

And whether it’s the woman who call for a divorce or not she should absolutely be compensated for any post earnings or earning potential if she has made sacrifices to raise THEIR children
Men very often forget that they wouldn’t have the careers they do have if it weren’t for their wives being at home raising their children
It’s irrelevant whether the wife wanted to or not .

Sorry for being dense but are we saying the gender pay gap is a problem or it's not a problem as it's a choice?

I'm trying to work out my own thoughts on this. I would ideally like a higher earning partner so it would allow me to work part time and do more childcare. Is this thinking acceptable or have I been brainwashed by society? If it is acceptable and widespread then the pay gap will always be present.

@coronaway

Sorry for being dense but are we saying the gender pay gap is a problem or it's not a problem as it's a choice?

I'm trying to work out my own thoughts on this. I would ideally like a higher earning partner so it would allow me to work part time and do more childcare. Is this thinking acceptable or have I been brainwashed by society? If it is acceptable and widespread then the pay gap will always be present.

No coronaway the pay gap is not just a matter of women working part time If you want to work part time and be gone with your child more then no issue The gender pay gap goes far far deeper . It’s about women who work the same job same hours as men and are paid less , it’s about positions of management and authors be given more frequently to men , it’s about the fact that many women who may not feel like you have expectations on them to be the ones to make career sacrifices , it’s about the fact working men are rarely if ever asked ‘ who looks after your children while your here working ‘ Really , situations like yours are not the issue at all What you need to decided is whether you think it’s acceptable for women to get fewer opportunities choices than men in what careers and to be paid and promoted less and whether it’s fair that expectations fall predominately on women to sacrifice careers

@coronaway
Also I’ll add be aware that whilst it’s perfectly ok for yoh to want to work part time abd have more time to stay home with kids . As you have seen from some of the men posting here you may well leave yourself in a very vulnerable Financial position should the relationship fail . Many men feel that although they benefit from their child’s mother sacrificing a career to raise the children they both brought into they world , once a relationship breaks down she is not going to be owed any type of compensation for the lost earning potential . Some have the ridiculous idea that 50/50 is a fair split even in case where there’s one of them and the other partner has themselves and several children to care for

I think if we choose to have children then it's warranted to work less / be offered less career progression. I think all being the same then it is absolutely not right of men and women are paid differently - I'm sure this exists due to sexism (and should be constantly pointed out) but I don't believe not have I ever seen it in larger companies - there would be no benefit for the company to do so.

My issue is more men than women will forgo children in pursuit of their career so there will always be an imbalance (not to mention we of course have to birth the child).

[quote Washingtofold]@coronaway
Also I’ll add be aware that whilst it’s perfectly ok for yoh to want to work part time abd have more time to stay home with kids . As you have seen from some of the men posting here you may well leave yourself in a very vulnerable Financial position should the relationship fail . Many men feel that although they benefit from their child’s mother sacrificing a career to raise the children they both brought into they world , once a relationship breaks down she is not going to be owed any type of compensation for the lost earning potential . Some have the ridiculous idea that 50/50 is a fair split even in case where there’s one of them and the other partner has themselves and several children to care for[/quote]
Yes I am aware that is a big risk

@coronaway

I think if we choose to have children then it's warranted to work less / be offered less career progression. I think all being the same then it is absolutely not right of men and women are paid differently - I'm sure this exists due to sexism (and should be constantly pointed out) but I don't believe not have I ever seen it in larger companies - there would be no benefit for the company to do so.

My issue is more men than women will forgo children in pursuit of their career so there will always be an imbalance (not to mention we of course have to birth the child).

No it’s not just that men forgo children to pursue careers Men have children but leave most of the child rearing to women WHETHER women want it or not They are seldom challenged on this It’s much much easier for a man to have children and a career than a woman

When do you ever hear of men having to make choices between children and careers

I think you are missing the point that these inherent sexism . Just because the traditional way is what you would like that doesn’t mean all women should be held to a choice of children OR career simply because most men refuse to do an equal amount of child rearing

[quote BuggerBognor]@Oreo01 that isn’t anything approaching “evidence” that pay disparity doesn’t exist. It’s (at best) conjecture. If they were unhappy, why would they tell you (in a professional context)? And the “all the execs are men” probably tells you everything you need to know.

We’ve had to legislate for equal pay since 1979. You’d think that legislation would never have been invoked if there was no pay disparity? Or at least that claims would be declining, right?

You’d be wrong. 29,000 claims a year and counting.[/quote]
So in your circumstances you took the decision to take time out and have children. This had a big negative impact on your potential earnings against obviously the priceless time you got to raise the children.

I think we're at cross purposes. I agree equal pay for the same job etc. I just believe the pay gap is primarily driven by two things:

1. Men occupying the top positions.

1. Child bearing and most often women then reducing their working time.

Both of these are driven primarily by societal pressures / norms.

If we can equalise this I'm all for it. But the only way to do that is look at the full picture and aim to equalise opportunity. Even then we can't equalise outcomes.

I think it's right to highlight the pay gap but more important to analyse why and see what realistically can be done to reduce. But referring to point to the above points we can't address point 1 without also addressing poibt 2

I am a woman in a department where all my colleagues are men. Only one of these men has ever to my knowledge taken a single day off for childcare reasons - he is younger and his wife also has a good job so maybe things are changing. The rest turn up come rain or shine while I have been stuffed for childcare on occasions or have had various child crises. But of course that is apparently a failing in me - it’s not a failing in them that they never take time out for their kids and there is a woman picking up the pieces for them.

For donkeys years I have juggled kids and work. Company gender pay gap figures are shocking because, surprise, surprise, most of those at the top are men! That’s apparently ok. I took on most domestic duties at home too. When I divorced my ex he took 55% of assets and I had the children to support and juggle with work. Still, men claim they are hard done by?

I won’t be dating anyone ever, I can’t afford to be robbed again! I find the idea of OLD repulsive - I am not a commodity to be traded in some online cattle market. Sometimes I feel lonely but it’s better than the alternative.

The issue as I see it though is men will often have children on the proviso their partner / wife will do the bulk of the child rearing. If the assumption was they had to do the majority share of childcare they would decide not to have children. Women on the other hand will often choose to have children over their career.

I can't think of anyone in my social circle where it was the man pushing to have children - it was always the women. That isn't to say the men in these relationships don't adore their children and are grateful to have them however it does highlight the difference in attitude. Unless this attitude changes (and perhaps it is now) then I can't see how we solve the problem.

Its so odd as I know so many of my good friends who met their current partners on apps, few dates, went well, they then decided to be 'exclusive' and now are happily living together and kids are on the way, they couldn't be happier. My own experience is that the ones i like just don't like me or pretend they do till they get what they want then they go distant and then vanish, but admittedly i have ghosted too. Sometimes its just so much easier than having the awkward conversation with them. So probably my experiences with being ghosted is my own karma coming to get me.
The only nice man i met in real life who would have been perfect, couldn't fault him one bit except there was no chemistry even though he was good looking, I hoped so much it would develop but just didn't. I realised I am pretty content single too. You do hear many many nightmare stories from couples about their partners so who know's which is really 'better.' I hope you do find someone who really treats you like you deserve and makes you happy and makes you laugh...

First of all it’s not true that it’s only women wanting children! I’d say my ex-husband was keener than I was initially. Children are not pets or playthings, they are humans and the building blocks of all human society! You can’t ignore them or abandon them on a whim - which many men seem to do. I wonder really how on Earth they can do it.

@Brakken

It’s so frustrating, like they have never been expected to grow the fuck up.

Well to be fair they're not expected to. Back in the day for example (before my time) it was the norm that many men married in their early 20s and had the responsibility of providing for their wife and family and self sacrificing to ensure they're safe and well.

Nowadays, men are encouraged to be selfish and women no longer expect commitment and responsibility from them anymore. They get everything on a plate without any responsibilities on their part. Even marriage and kids which are a normal.part of adulthood, is supposed to be something which "scares" grown adult men away if a woman wants to properly dicuss them 🙄

The worst part is women continue colluding in all this by rewarding all these bad men by giving them what they want(sex, support etc) and staying with them long term, instead of raising their standards and going with good men.

This.

@TorringtonDean

First of all it’s not true that it’s only women wanting children! I’d say my ex-husband was keener than I was initially. Children are not pets or playthings, they are humans and the building blocks of all human society! You can’t ignore them or abandon them on a whim - which many men seem to do. I wonder really how on Earth they can do it.

But would they be so keen if they knew they had to do the bulk of childcare? Or would they think, children would great but not great enough to sacrifice my career and life over. I don't doubt there are some examples where it has been the man pushing for children but that's still under the above proviso.

Also your post somewhat proves my point - many men seem to abandon them; so there does seem to be a difference in how men and women feel about children?

I don't think we can just overlook this as it obviously has a big impact in everything else.

Well yes, some men have always abandoned their children, which is one reason church and state enforced marriage to tie them to their responsibilities. But then that also made women tied to bad relationships and treated as chattels.

Now we have something called equality. We are meant to have it in the workplace - although we don’t as there is a gender pay gap. We certainly don’t have it in the home! I had a good career and kids and (female of course) also did the lion’s share of domestic tasks. My ex-husband was a passenger in the relationship then waltzed away with 55%. That is not equal or fair. But it is typically male!

I've raised my son on my own. His dad's never been involved really, sadly his choice. I tried my best to keep in touch with him but he never even met me half way. It's been far easier for me in one sense as i've been able to make the decisions for us and live life how i see is best but it's been completely without a second parent so not very little free time for me. He's 11 now though so thing are far easier than when he was little. We moved abroad when my son was 3 to be closer to my family and admittedly that made keeping in contact with his dad even more difficult but again i would have made it possible if he had showed some interest. Never had anything financially from him either.
But on the other hand I know two men who have bent over backwards battling nasty ex's for rights to see their children. One who managed to come to an arrangement with his ex that basically saw him agreeing to have his little girl whenever his ex needed him to, mainly Fridays and the weekends (surprise, surprise) and he kept them free for her. Sometimes she'd let him down last minute though and he'd be really upset. But he was adamant not to go through court. The other went through the courts and was 'awarded' every other weekend and an over-night stay mid-week once every two weeks. The little girl was so confused by all this as well. So i've sort of seen both sides of how men can be when it comes to children.