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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bad combination of hoarding, delusions of wealth, dangerous housing situation and coercive control (long!)

107 replies

Seashore2018 · 06/04/2021 21:11

I’ve got a very complicated & difficult situation with my MIL and FIL. I’m posting here in case anyone has experienced anything similar and has advice to give. Sorry in advance, it’s long!

MIL and FIL are in their late 70s and 80s and have three sons, one of whom is my DH. All three of the sons are grown with young families of their own. DH and I have lived abroad for some years and, pre-covid, visited every few years.

The heart of the problem is MIL, who has a very bad combination of issues. She is a severe hoarder, to the point where her and FIL’s house became unliveable a few years ago. MIL had a fall and they moved out temporarily while she was recovering, into what was supposed to be temporary accommodation, but it became their permanent base and is now being rented by the week at considerable cost. A combination of many decades of accumulated junk, plus a leaking roof has meant that everything in the house is now covered in mould, vermin are running around, utilities have long been disconnected etc, so no toilet - they were using a bucket Shock. It’s not a place anyone could live in, let alone two elderly people locked in a toxic co-dependent relationship (more on that in a moment). The state of the house is a deep source of shame for MIL, so any attempt to talk to her about it goes nowhere - she just starts screaming hysterically.

Unfortunately, MIL’s hoarding goes along with a delusion that FIL is actually incredibly wealthy and is hiding millions from her, and also has had various mistresses on whom he has lavished his money. According to MIL (who comes from a fairly wealthy family and is addicted to buying absurd lots of gifts from high-end stores to demonstrate both her bounty and her class position Hmm), FIL is loaded and has the ability to buy her the luxury mansion and luxury car that she deserves. Because he won’t do this, she feels justified in making his life a living hell and also letting her own house run into a state of unliveability. (This is a conscious choice on her part - DH has told me various stories, eg. how MIL would make FIL do the family’s laundry when he and his brothers were school-age, and she very deliberately broke the washing machine so he would have to wash the clothes in the bath. So all through his school days, his dad did the family’s laundry in the bath.)

The reality is very far from this. DH, his brothers and I are 100% confident that FIL has never had an affair, does not have millions stashed away and is in fact probably deep in debt from many years of MIL’s performative overspending and complete inability to understand that it makes terrible financial sense to, say, rent a high-end car by the week when you could just buy a more modest secondhand one. As the years have gone on, it’s become increasingly hard to watch his decline: as well as getting frailer, he's gotten progressively thinner and more unkempt. His clothes have become more threadbare and stained, and prior to them moving out of the house you could smell the mould and mustiness on him: it's really not the kind of state a closet millionaire or even someone who was very frugal would allow themselves to get into. It is also very obvious that MIL controls everything he does. This was the norm all through DH’s childhood, and I’ve seen it many times myself: MIL has to have control of the car keys, she controls access to FIL's phone, when she phones DH she will allow FIL only a few short minutes to talk to him and snatches the phone away when she disapproves of what he is saying, etc. Most distressingly of all, FIL seems to have lost the ability to look after himself, including eating enough: his own needs now take second place to MIL's demands, and the need to minimise the abuse he gets from her.

Here's one relatively minor incident that illustrates the difficulty of helping him and stopping her. We were at the the zoo with them and she started ordering him to buy our kids completely unnecessary and ridiculous things from the gift shop, despite our repeated forceful insistence that they didn't need these gifts and that she shouldn't be wasting money on such things. (I'm happy to have grandparents buy our kids treats and presents, but not when I know it'll cause hardship later.) I jumped up and ran after him and told him not to buy the things, and he just said quietly that it was easier to just buy the things than deal with the falllout later. Later that same day she wouldn't let him buy himself anything to eat, and of course we pressed our own snacks on him and got our kids to offer him food (thinking that she wouldn't stoop so low to get angry at small children), but she immediately got angry, jumped in to say no on his behalf, and then he refused anyway because he knew accepting would just mean more abuse later. Shortly afterwards he almost passed out from lack of food. I was absolutely infuriated and got the zoo security people involved (at this point he had to lie down and I was worried he'd need an ambulance to be called, plus she was beginning to get hysterical in front of my kids who are quite young and I didn't want them subjected to her screaming), but he recovered, insisted he was fine and MIL swept them both home.

If you are reading this and thinking ‘This sounds ridiculous: they are adults, why don't they just stop giving in to her?’, it’s because MIL is the most proficient manipulator I have ever met. She controls people with strategic screaming tantrums, and if you're able to stand up to them (as I have, once or twice) then it becomes clear that once you have walked away, she will take out her rage on FIL, so if you continue to cross her then it's him who will suffer. Normally these rages when other people aren’t around, but once I became part of the family I was privy to a few and they are genuinely unbearable - she screams and rants hysterically for literally hours on end and will appear to lose control and put herself in danger (eg. by trying to get out of a car in the middle of the road when stopped at traffic lights). Even if the screaming isn't directed at you, it’s extremely stressful to experience even a few minutes of it. FIL has this all day every day, I suspect, and quite honestly I don’t know how he’s still standing. I don’t even know how she manages it day in day out, as it must be incredibly physically taxing to scream for hours on end, but she does. (When DH was a kid the neighbours occasionally called the police because it got so bad: the police did nothing.)

The obvious solution would be for FIL to leave MIL, but he won’t. It’s a really severe example of coercive control, where he seems to have lost the ability to care for himself or go against her in any way. One of my BILs has rented him a small studio apartment where FIL can go for respite, and he does spend occasional nights there, which is something, but every time he goes away MIL gets even more convinced that he has a mistress somewhere and redoubles her abuse of him when he returns. He seems to feel responsible for her mental health issues and so can’t abandon her (which is an indication both of his integrity, and also of the iron grip she has over him).

In the past decade FIL has had a little bit of money here and there - certainly not in the order MIL thinks, but probably enough to live a modest if frugal retired life. In the past few years, though, it's become clear that his money has completely run out, as he's stopped paying for essential things and has also had to start asking his sons if they can give him money. He obviously finds this very embarrassing but the alternative is getting screamed and shouted at by MIL, so he does it and then passes the money to her (so she thinks it is his, and as he keeps producing money this feeds her delusion that he still has a pile of money stashed somewhere). DH & I would be incredibly happy to give FIL money if we thought he would use it to buy himself food, non-mildewy clothing, and other things to improve his own life, but we know the money won’t be spent on that - he’ll end up giving it to MIL so she can buy herself and others luxuries that should be much further down her priority list than, say, safe and clean accommodation. I think he probably waits until she's screamed herself out and has fallen asleep, and then sneaks into the kitchen to get scraps - he's able to get himself some food but only on her terms.

MIL clearly needs help but will not countenance any suggestion that she has any problems, and will not engage at all with any support we offer. Even a gentle, supportive conversation intended to help her inevitably results, usually within less than a minute, in her hysterical screaming (often the same thing over and over just so she doesn’t hear what we are trying to say) and her repeated insistence that FIL has plenty of money and is hiding it, giving it to his mistress. She hates the idea of taking money from her sons, even though they are all working professionals and in a much better position to fund her than her 80-year-old husband, which is why the money given to FIL which then gets funnelled to her has to be done on the sly. The amount of lies and deception is staggering.

So, that’s the background (and there's plenty more - I’ll give that detail if needed, but I’m trying to keep it as short as possible so as not to put people off reading this).

I’m posting now because after decades of deterioration, things have reached a crisis point. Whatever money was funding MIL & FIL’s stay in the pay-by-the-week expensive apartment hotel seems to have run out, and the hotel is trying to throw them out. MIL has apparently filled one of the rooms with hoarded things already, and has been verbally abusive to the hotel staff, as she eventually is to most people who get in the way of what she wants (she has had multiple restraining orders taken out against her). I suspect one or both of my BILs have been funding the hotel stay (without admitting it to their partners, but that’s another whole thread Angry), but one of them has lost patience with his mother and said he won't pay any longer. I think this is actually a good thing because it may prompt change: the expensive hotel is just a band-aid solution that isn’t at all sustainable long-term. If she and FIL sold their house then they would probably have the money for a modest flat in a retirement complex, where they could get the care they need as they get older, but MIL would consider that far, far beneath her and the luxury house she imagines herself to deserve. Also, she will literally never agree to do anything with FIL - she disagrees with him about the smallest trivial decisions just on principle, so she certainly isn’t going to agree to sell the house they jointly own.

Personally I'm of the opinion that actually this crisis might be something we could take advantage of, so to speak - eg. the hotel gets the police involved and that triggers the involvement of social work and mental health services - but my DH and BILs are very uncomfortable with that (she is their mum after all, even after everything she’s done).

So, I’m posting to see if anyone has a family member or friend who exhibits some combination of these problems. If so, I would love to hear of anything that helped the situation, or even just accounts of how this has played out for other people. If the police or mental health services have become involved, it'd be good to know if that’s been positive or negative. MIL and FIL are not in the UK so I am not as familiar with all the services/laws in their country (coercive control is, for example, unfortunately not illegal there so I don’t know how/whether one could charge MIL with it), but it is an English-speaking country that is very similar to the UK in many ways.

Thank you & sorry that was so long (it was cathartic to type though!)

OP posts:
Quaverscrisps · 09/04/2021 06:15

Haven't read whole thread but this is a POVA case.

Cuntryhouse · 09/04/2021 06:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ - identifying.

friskybivalves · 09/04/2021 07:46

Agree on the house clearance issue and keeping the cleaners on afterwards so that the rats don't return. And had also assumed down under. Which makes logistics super difficult owing to impossibility of getting in and out owing to covid restrictions. Really need those in - country already to do their bit!

user1471538283 · 09/04/2021 10:29

My DF tried for years to get DM to see the doctor about her mental health but she refused. She was eventually sectioned when I was an adult but only for two weeks. She was medicated and was okay whilst she was in the hospital. She was a little better for a while but by then our relationship was damaged beyond repair. She like your MIL was manipulative though and talked the nurse out of coming to give her medication every day (because she could not be trusted to take it herself) and then stopped all of it completely.

It wasn't always her mental health. She was deliberately spiteful, cruel and constantly seeking attention.

She died at 70 of a heart attack so not very old really but she did nothing at all with her life. When she died we found enough unused medication to fill two black bin bags.

I really hope there is a resolution to this x

Seashore2018 · 09/04/2021 13:10

@user1471538283

My DF tried for years to get DM to see the doctor about her mental health but she refused. She was eventually sectioned when I was an adult but only for two weeks. She was medicated and was okay whilst she was in the hospital. She was a little better for a while but by then our relationship was damaged beyond repair. She like your MIL was manipulative though and talked the nurse out of coming to give her medication every day (because she could not be trusted to take it herself) and then stopped all of it completely.

It wasn't always her mental health. She was deliberately spiteful, cruel and constantly seeking attention.

She died at 70 of a heart attack so not very old really but she did nothing at all with her life. When she died we found enough unused medication to fill two black bin bags.

I really hope there is a resolution to this x

That sounds eerily similar. MIL also has done nothing with her life: I think she worked before she had children but stopped when they came along (as was standard for the time and place, I guess) and never did anything - no hobbies, or involvement in her children's extra-curricular things or helping with school activities beyond showing up at school plays or sports matches. I always read her obsessive consumerism and buying unnecessary stuff as the thing that stood in for the regular hobbies and social activities that other people had.

Also good to be forewarned about refusing to take the medication. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she pulls that stunt. Thank you again and Flowers for being an involuntary member of the shitty mothers (and mothers-in-law) club.

OP posts:
yetmorewaiting · 09/04/2021 13:48

There is an organisation called HelpAge International which has a pretty global network - do they have a partner local to where you need who might know on the ground services better helpage.org

Seashore2018 · 09/04/2021 14:24

Thanks @yetmorewaiting, I appreciate the pointer. I checked that site and unfortunately they don't work in the country where MIL & FIL are.

OP posts:
WobbleHead · 09/04/2021 15:06

Is there anything that MIL did, or does, that could be proven as a criminal act? Is there any definition in law in their country of what comprises abuse?

Seashore2018 · 09/04/2021 15:39

@WobbleHead

Is there anything that MIL did, or does, that could be proven as a criminal act? Is there any definition in law in their country of what comprises abuse?
I wondered that when I saw her deny food to FIL at the zoo incident. It was one of the things I asked when I went to the police station, and the response there indicated to me that no, even with a bunch of evidence, eg. affidavits from my SILs witnessing similar things, the police would likely not take it seriously.

I imagine there's a lot of shouting and screaming at the hotel but I can't imagine it'd be easy to persuade someone poor unfortunate tourist who's had the bad luck to be given the hotel room next door to hers to go through the hassle of making a statement, when all they no doubt want is to be given a different room and have the hotel deal with it. But one of the things I want to explore is whether the hotel itself would be able to make a statement, and whether that counts as evidence. I shall talk to SIL about when we next speak, which will hopefully be soon if we can work something out with the always annoying time difference.

OP posts:
ginandvomit · 10/04/2021 05:11

Are there any family members in the same country? If so they're really going to have to shoulder the responsibility of supporting your FIL. Where will they go when they get evicted from the hotel?

PankhurstTastic · 10/04/2021 07:19

The key question here is does either you MIL or FIL actually have an illness? From your description it sounds like MIL is manipulative & controlling, but can switch her tantrums on & off depending on the audience- in which case she is an unpleasant abuser, but not mentally ill. You describe your FIL as being under her control but capable of living independently- in which case he is being abused but is not ill. So any expectation of either of them being admitted to hospital/sectioned/treated is unrealistic, there is no illness to treat (I'm in the UK & whilst hoarding can be a psychiatric disorder, no way would you section someone for that). The situation is one of coercive control & emotional abuse- even in the UK the police would only act if your FIL made a complaint, so it is a very very difficult situation. I'd be trying to communicate with FIL as really the only solution is him not physically being with MIL. The priority is his welfare, not trying to fix her behaviour (because frankly that is not going to happen). Would reframing the conversation with DH to be all about FIL help? Realistically his welfare will only improve if he does not live with MIL.

Oneeyeopen · 10/04/2021 07:38

Have you asked you dh if this was his adult dc, in the future, being so obviously abused would he say dc is an adult and refuse to look for help?
I couldn't do nothing with this level of toxicity.

RandomMess · 10/04/2021 08:26

@PankhurstTastic actually it has occurred to me that my ex-MIL (now deceased) had many similar traits. When she was finally sectioned she was diagnosed with schizophrenia which actually covers a wide range of behaviours. MIL knew what she was doing and felt perfectly entitled to do it.

Seashore2018 · 12/04/2021 10:39

@PankhurstTastic

The key question here is does either you MIL or FIL actually have an illness? From your description it sounds like MIL is manipulative & controlling, but can switch her tantrums on & off depending on the audience- in which case she is an unpleasant abuser, but not mentally ill. You describe your FIL as being under her control but capable of living independently- in which case he is being abused but is not ill. So any expectation of either of them being admitted to hospital/sectioned/treated is unrealistic, there is no illness to treat (I'm in the UK & whilst hoarding can be a psychiatric disorder, no way would you section someone for that). The situation is one of coercive control & emotional abuse- even in the UK the police would only act if your FIL made a complaint, so it is a very very difficult situation. I'd be trying to communicate with FIL as really the only solution is him not physically being with MIL. The priority is his welfare, not trying to fix her behaviour (because frankly that is not going to happen). Would reframing the conversation with DH to be all about FIL help? Realistically his welfare will only improve if he does not live with MIL.
Minor update. We managed to speak to one of my DH's brothers and his wife over the weekend and @PankhurstTastic has it about right, I think - both BIL and SIL were very dubious that MIL would satisfy the requirements for being sectioned. The mental health system in their country is under strain and they knew of much more severe cases where people had asked to be institutionalised and were turned away, so they didn't think MIL being admitted as an inpatient was a realistic option. (Side note: is there any place in the world where the mental health system isn't in extreme crisis and is able to actually serve its population?!)

Anyway, we have some plans in place to get FIL the independence he needs, which I don't want to be explicit about here but we have consultations lined up with some professionals and a plan of action that, I hope, will bring results quite soon. My SIL has been a hero and this thread has been helpful in showing me that, as much as it grates on me that it's the two women in this situation rather than the actual flesh-and-blood-sons who have to take the initiative, I need to revise my initial stance of thinking it isn't my place to come in and bulldoze everyone into following my own plan (which, believe it or not, is my usual approach) because the paralysis that frustrates me and my SILs so much is actually a direct result of the situation we're now trying to deal with.

I will come back and update if we get anywhere with any of our approaches but in the meantime, if others are reading this with similar dynamics with family members, I'm still really interested in hearing how you addressed it or how things shook out.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 12/04/2021 12:36

Well for Christmas you know what to buy all the brothers!!

Books such as
Out of the FOG
Toxic Parents
And some of the others for Adults of Narcissistic Parents!

Gingernaut · 19/07/2021 11:13

Sorry to drag things up again and feel free to ignore @Seashore2018 😳

Dare I ask how things are going?

Seashore2018 · 19/07/2021 11:57

Well, there has been a little progress, but things still feel very much like a slow-motion car crash. We've managed to staunch two of the main things that MIL was using to bleed FIL of money, and my DH was crucial for that: to his credit, he was up at ungodly hours talking FIL through it on the phone, trying to keep his dad's resolve strong from the other side of the planet. But FIL is coming to the end of the meagre amount of money he does have left, and has also recently developed a health condition (of the painful rather than the life-threatening kind) which just reminded me of the urgency of getting him sorted in proper accommodation before a genuine health emergency occurs.

As for MIL, we have some long-term plans in place which I don't want to talk about here, but one depressing thing is that even when her sons lay out how concerned they are for her and how they want to help her organise her life so that her future will be as safe and happy as possible, it prompts explosions of anger and endless tantrums left on voicemails Angry. She's a vile woman who interpret expressions of love and concern as evidence of her husband colluding with her sons to defraud her.

I have been following EatingTheElephantInChunks's extraordinary thread about cleaning a hoarder's house and as well as being inspired by her as an amazing human being, I am also further saddened and disheartened because the hoarding in this situation sounds quite a bit worse than what Ele is dealing with, and she's been persistently working away at it for many years Sad.

OP posts:
bibliomania · 19/07/2021 12:20

I think you have to be blunt with your DH - "You and your brothers are colluding with the abuse of your father". I don't think you can find a solution if you're having to fight them too.

bibliomania · 19/07/2021 12:25

Ah, things had moved on before I posted. Good luck with it - sounds horrific. You're a good person not to close your eyes to it as being too far away and hard to deal with.

Gingernaut · 19/07/2021 13:36

Christ OP. Sorry to hear that.

Maxiedog123 · 19/07/2021 16:00

I work for an Aged Care Assessment Team in Australia, and this is the sort of case with hoarding, neglect and ?delusional jealousy that we do get involved with with or without involvement of aged care psychiatry services.
Typically they would be referred by GP, and a home visit with a Senior Social Worker and Geriatrician would be arranged to assess.

Seashore2018 · 21/07/2021 12:37

@Maxiedog123

I work for an Aged Care Assessment Team in Australia, and this is the sort of case with hoarding, neglect and ?delusional jealousy that we do get involved with with or without involvement of aged care psychiatry services. Typically they would be referred by GP, and a home visit with a Senior Social Worker and Geriatrician would be arranged to assess.
@Maxiedog123 ah, you get it!

We wondered about a GP referral but MIL would certainly not allow anyone else into a GP appointment or even tell us who her GP was (it wouldn't surprise me if she was using different medical practices each time) so is there another route other than GP via which people come to you? And about the home visit, she would certainly not allow that either (shame over the hoarded house - she even said recently that no one was going to come to the house) so is a home visit a necessity? Would it be possible to do a 'home visit' to a hotel apartment? She will definitely not let anyone in so would that be enough of a basis on which to get her into the mental health system?

And what do you think is the likelihood of a referral and/or getting her involuntarily into a mental health facility, given that she can be extremely manipulative and convincing about it being her husband that's abusing her rather than the other way around?

Sorry for all the questions ... but I think you will have the best sense of the bureaucracy/referral procedures out of everyone who's posted here so far.

OP posts:
Maxiedog123 · 21/07/2021 13:22

Hi. Assuming they are in Australia...
The ACATs are usually based in a local hospital and each cover a particular group of suburbs. The choice of ACAT is based on where they are currently resident, so that would be the hotel rather than the house. They could do a visit at a hotel or some ACATs also have a clinic .
My understanding from what you have written that the family concern is that the father is at risk, and may need alternative accommodation, and that there are concerns re elder abuse .
It would be appropriate that your father is referred for assessment by his GP , if he has been unwell should have a GP. Once a referral has gone in then commonly family will provide information about their concerns to the ACAT intake officer. In this circumstances you would emphasise the concern re elder abuse and neglect. Once the possibility of elder abuse is flagged there should be a pathway that is followed.
Your MIL may never agree to be assessed but your FIL is from the sounds of it the one at risk presently . They don't need to be referred together and maybe the focus should be on protecting the vulnerable FIL. If your MIL is preventing appropriate help for FIL that may prompt referral for her but you have to have suspected mental illness placing yourself or others at significant risk for an involuntary assessment

Seashore2018 · 21/07/2021 14:18

Thank you @Maxiedog123. This is illuminating. I didn't realise the ACAT teams were connected to hospitals.

FIL & MIL are now living pretty much apart from each other, only he visits her from time to time at her request because he feels he should (I know that sounds crazy, he admits it makes no sense, and she shouts at him and treats him badly when he does come - he made a trip to go and see her and she wouldn't open the door to him, so he waited for some hours and then went back to his tiny flat). But it means that he isn't having food withheld and can (in theory if not in practice) walk away when she starts shouting. So even though I know it is coercive control and must be stopped for him to have a better quality of life, I'm worried that overstretched services (in lockdown mode, too) will look at him and say, well, he has a safe place to stay so we don't need to do anything urgently.

Day by day, week by week, month by month MIL is frittering away the money that needs to help them both in old age. FIL won't do anything about it. MIL will not be told what to do by anyone. The hotel she's in must be absolutely loving the cash cow they've got in her, and I'm sure she's extremely charming to the staff and tips them well. It's such a mess. I am going to use this ACAT information when we're next able to travel there, but getting there is now even harder with the new lockdown.

OP posts:
MrsRockAndRoll · 31/07/2021 20:54

So sorry to read your update OP. I have no advice but sending you a HH