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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bad combination of hoarding, delusions of wealth, dangerous housing situation and coercive control (long!)

107 replies

Seashore2018 · 06/04/2021 21:11

I’ve got a very complicated & difficult situation with my MIL and FIL. I’m posting here in case anyone has experienced anything similar and has advice to give. Sorry in advance, it’s long!

MIL and FIL are in their late 70s and 80s and have three sons, one of whom is my DH. All three of the sons are grown with young families of their own. DH and I have lived abroad for some years and, pre-covid, visited every few years.

The heart of the problem is MIL, who has a very bad combination of issues. She is a severe hoarder, to the point where her and FIL’s house became unliveable a few years ago. MIL had a fall and they moved out temporarily while she was recovering, into what was supposed to be temporary accommodation, but it became their permanent base and is now being rented by the week at considerable cost. A combination of many decades of accumulated junk, plus a leaking roof has meant that everything in the house is now covered in mould, vermin are running around, utilities have long been disconnected etc, so no toilet - they were using a bucket Shock. It’s not a place anyone could live in, let alone two elderly people locked in a toxic co-dependent relationship (more on that in a moment). The state of the house is a deep source of shame for MIL, so any attempt to talk to her about it goes nowhere - she just starts screaming hysterically.

Unfortunately, MIL’s hoarding goes along with a delusion that FIL is actually incredibly wealthy and is hiding millions from her, and also has had various mistresses on whom he has lavished his money. According to MIL (who comes from a fairly wealthy family and is addicted to buying absurd lots of gifts from high-end stores to demonstrate both her bounty and her class position Hmm), FIL is loaded and has the ability to buy her the luxury mansion and luxury car that she deserves. Because he won’t do this, she feels justified in making his life a living hell and also letting her own house run into a state of unliveability. (This is a conscious choice on her part - DH has told me various stories, eg. how MIL would make FIL do the family’s laundry when he and his brothers were school-age, and she very deliberately broke the washing machine so he would have to wash the clothes in the bath. So all through his school days, his dad did the family’s laundry in the bath.)

The reality is very far from this. DH, his brothers and I are 100% confident that FIL has never had an affair, does not have millions stashed away and is in fact probably deep in debt from many years of MIL’s performative overspending and complete inability to understand that it makes terrible financial sense to, say, rent a high-end car by the week when you could just buy a more modest secondhand one. As the years have gone on, it’s become increasingly hard to watch his decline: as well as getting frailer, he's gotten progressively thinner and more unkempt. His clothes have become more threadbare and stained, and prior to them moving out of the house you could smell the mould and mustiness on him: it's really not the kind of state a closet millionaire or even someone who was very frugal would allow themselves to get into. It is also very obvious that MIL controls everything he does. This was the norm all through DH’s childhood, and I’ve seen it many times myself: MIL has to have control of the car keys, she controls access to FIL's phone, when she phones DH she will allow FIL only a few short minutes to talk to him and snatches the phone away when she disapproves of what he is saying, etc. Most distressingly of all, FIL seems to have lost the ability to look after himself, including eating enough: his own needs now take second place to MIL's demands, and the need to minimise the abuse he gets from her.

Here's one relatively minor incident that illustrates the difficulty of helping him and stopping her. We were at the the zoo with them and she started ordering him to buy our kids completely unnecessary and ridiculous things from the gift shop, despite our repeated forceful insistence that they didn't need these gifts and that she shouldn't be wasting money on such things. (I'm happy to have grandparents buy our kids treats and presents, but not when I know it'll cause hardship later.) I jumped up and ran after him and told him not to buy the things, and he just said quietly that it was easier to just buy the things than deal with the falllout later. Later that same day she wouldn't let him buy himself anything to eat, and of course we pressed our own snacks on him and got our kids to offer him food (thinking that she wouldn't stoop so low to get angry at small children), but she immediately got angry, jumped in to say no on his behalf, and then he refused anyway because he knew accepting would just mean more abuse later. Shortly afterwards he almost passed out from lack of food. I was absolutely infuriated and got the zoo security people involved (at this point he had to lie down and I was worried he'd need an ambulance to be called, plus she was beginning to get hysterical in front of my kids who are quite young and I didn't want them subjected to her screaming), but he recovered, insisted he was fine and MIL swept them both home.

If you are reading this and thinking ‘This sounds ridiculous: they are adults, why don't they just stop giving in to her?’, it’s because MIL is the most proficient manipulator I have ever met. She controls people with strategic screaming tantrums, and if you're able to stand up to them (as I have, once or twice) then it becomes clear that once you have walked away, she will take out her rage on FIL, so if you continue to cross her then it's him who will suffer. Normally these rages when other people aren’t around, but once I became part of the family I was privy to a few and they are genuinely unbearable - she screams and rants hysterically for literally hours on end and will appear to lose control and put herself in danger (eg. by trying to get out of a car in the middle of the road when stopped at traffic lights). Even if the screaming isn't directed at you, it’s extremely stressful to experience even a few minutes of it. FIL has this all day every day, I suspect, and quite honestly I don’t know how he’s still standing. I don’t even know how she manages it day in day out, as it must be incredibly physically taxing to scream for hours on end, but she does. (When DH was a kid the neighbours occasionally called the police because it got so bad: the police did nothing.)

The obvious solution would be for FIL to leave MIL, but he won’t. It’s a really severe example of coercive control, where he seems to have lost the ability to care for himself or go against her in any way. One of my BILs has rented him a small studio apartment where FIL can go for respite, and he does spend occasional nights there, which is something, but every time he goes away MIL gets even more convinced that he has a mistress somewhere and redoubles her abuse of him when he returns. He seems to feel responsible for her mental health issues and so can’t abandon her (which is an indication both of his integrity, and also of the iron grip she has over him).

In the past decade FIL has had a little bit of money here and there - certainly not in the order MIL thinks, but probably enough to live a modest if frugal retired life. In the past few years, though, it's become clear that his money has completely run out, as he's stopped paying for essential things and has also had to start asking his sons if they can give him money. He obviously finds this very embarrassing but the alternative is getting screamed and shouted at by MIL, so he does it and then passes the money to her (so she thinks it is his, and as he keeps producing money this feeds her delusion that he still has a pile of money stashed somewhere). DH & I would be incredibly happy to give FIL money if we thought he would use it to buy himself food, non-mildewy clothing, and other things to improve his own life, but we know the money won’t be spent on that - he’ll end up giving it to MIL so she can buy herself and others luxuries that should be much further down her priority list than, say, safe and clean accommodation. I think he probably waits until she's screamed herself out and has fallen asleep, and then sneaks into the kitchen to get scraps - he's able to get himself some food but only on her terms.

MIL clearly needs help but will not countenance any suggestion that she has any problems, and will not engage at all with any support we offer. Even a gentle, supportive conversation intended to help her inevitably results, usually within less than a minute, in her hysterical screaming (often the same thing over and over just so she doesn’t hear what we are trying to say) and her repeated insistence that FIL has plenty of money and is hiding it, giving it to his mistress. She hates the idea of taking money from her sons, even though they are all working professionals and in a much better position to fund her than her 80-year-old husband, which is why the money given to FIL which then gets funnelled to her has to be done on the sly. The amount of lies and deception is staggering.

So, that’s the background (and there's plenty more - I’ll give that detail if needed, but I’m trying to keep it as short as possible so as not to put people off reading this).

I’m posting now because after decades of deterioration, things have reached a crisis point. Whatever money was funding MIL & FIL’s stay in the pay-by-the-week expensive apartment hotel seems to have run out, and the hotel is trying to throw them out. MIL has apparently filled one of the rooms with hoarded things already, and has been verbally abusive to the hotel staff, as she eventually is to most people who get in the way of what she wants (she has had multiple restraining orders taken out against her). I suspect one or both of my BILs have been funding the hotel stay (without admitting it to their partners, but that’s another whole thread Angry), but one of them has lost patience with his mother and said he won't pay any longer. I think this is actually a good thing because it may prompt change: the expensive hotel is just a band-aid solution that isn’t at all sustainable long-term. If she and FIL sold their house then they would probably have the money for a modest flat in a retirement complex, where they could get the care they need as they get older, but MIL would consider that far, far beneath her and the luxury house she imagines herself to deserve. Also, she will literally never agree to do anything with FIL - she disagrees with him about the smallest trivial decisions just on principle, so she certainly isn’t going to agree to sell the house they jointly own.

Personally I'm of the opinion that actually this crisis might be something we could take advantage of, so to speak - eg. the hotel gets the police involved and that triggers the involvement of social work and mental health services - but my DH and BILs are very uncomfortable with that (she is their mum after all, even after everything she’s done).

So, I’m posting to see if anyone has a family member or friend who exhibits some combination of these problems. If so, I would love to hear of anything that helped the situation, or even just accounts of how this has played out for other people. If the police or mental health services have become involved, it'd be good to know if that’s been positive or negative. MIL and FIL are not in the UK so I am not as familiar with all the services/laws in their country (coercive control is, for example, unfortunately not illegal there so I don’t know how/whether one could charge MIL with it), but it is an English-speaking country that is very similar to the UK in many ways.

Thank you & sorry that was so long (it was cathartic to type though!)

OP posts:
Tankflybosswalkjam · 07/04/2021 00:02

It’s going back a few years but we had similar with my MIL. She had a long history of severe mental health issues and when she was medicated, was brilliant but then would come off her meds and it would all start again. My husband and his siblings, all educated outgoing people, were paralysed with it all. She was a very strange mixture of vulnerable and (to them) terrifying. There was also a lot of guilt thrown in too. Things reached a head and we ended up sitting her down for a Serious Talk and I was stunned to watch DH and siblings clam up. No words came out. I was so frustrated. DH’s brother’s girlfriend took no prisoners and was very blunt and gave it to her straight - there were to be no more tantrums, she would be dealing direct with her medical care, she would be speaking to the warden of the place where she lived, there would be a cleaner coming, and there was to be no more screaming, arguments, late night phone calls, lies and playing off everyone. MIL was open mouthed. DH and brother were both crying, and afterwards, thanked her for being their “voice.” There were still ups and downs but things improved enormously, because I think MIL was suddenly aware of the negative consequences of her behaviour. I must add that this wasn’t in U.K. and wasn’t in English but brother’s girlfriend realised MIL’s GP was an English speaker and then went from there.

Tankflybosswalkjam · 07/04/2021 00:04

Sorry I’ve just seen your last post - I wouldn’t bother trying to get a plan in place. Just get the first domino knocked over. She sounds like a right old bitch.

cerealgamechanger · 07/04/2021 01:22

You're ALL enabling her. Stop it now.

cerealgamechanger · 07/04/2021 01:33

Pps. Look up Dr Romini's videos on YouTube. You can't ever 'win' against a narc but you can stop giving them the narc supply they so badly crave.

Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 07:19

@Tankflybosswalkjam

It’s going back a few years but we had similar with my MIL. She had a long history of severe mental health issues and when she was medicated, was brilliant but then would come off her meds and it would all start again. My husband and his siblings, all educated outgoing people, were paralysed with it all. She was a very strange mixture of vulnerable and (to them) terrifying. There was also a lot of guilt thrown in too. Things reached a head and we ended up sitting her down for a Serious Talk and I was stunned to watch DH and siblings clam up. No words came out. I was so frustrated. DH’s brother’s girlfriend took no prisoners and was very blunt and gave it to her straight - there were to be no more tantrums, she would be dealing direct with her medical care, she would be speaking to the warden of the place where she lived, there would be a cleaner coming, and there was to be no more screaming, arguments, late night phone calls, lies and playing off everyone. MIL was open mouthed. DH and brother were both crying, and afterwards, thanked her for being their “voice.” There were still ups and downs but things improved enormously, because I think MIL was suddenly aware of the negative consequences of her behaviour. I must add that this wasn’t in U.K. and wasn’t in English but brother’s girlfriend realised MIL’s GP was an English speaker and then went from there.
Thank you *@Tankflybosswalkjam, this is really* helpful and the kind of thing I was hoping to find out. Your BIL's girlfriend sounds like a boss. My BILs and DH are also educated, outgoing, organised people with professional careers - I'm relieved, in a weird way, to hear of another situation in which people who seem otherwise highly capable aren't able to act. And the similarities (the phone calls! My god, the phone calls - the phone gets used as a weapon in ways I couldn't have imagined) lead me to think that maybe this is a pattern that mental health professionals will have seen before.

Can I ask - did your MIL do the thing where she shouts and screams if she doesn't like what she hears? I would do what your BIL's girlfriend did in a heartbeat if I thought MIL would actually listen, but even suggesting to her, say, that it might be better to park in this car parking spot rather than that car parking spot can set her off. And was there anything that convinced her to go on her meds in the first place? I would love it if she agreed to take medication but that involves admitting she has a problem.

We also have the practical problem of where she will stay - if she's taken into the care of mental health services/the police - when she comes out. One of my SILs is looking into the logistics of getting the house cleaned up (by the kind of firm who do crime scene/forensic cleaning Sad) but that will take time, and I also know that taking away a hoarder's hoard just means they start hoarding again with greater intensity. We could all club together a get her a flat, but the city she lives in is an expensive one for real estate and we all have young families, mortgages etc so simply don't have the kind of £ to get her the kind of flat that she thinks she is owed. We have also got to the point of realising that any place she stays in the future will need to have a cleaner come in, so she doesn't wreck it (this is one problem with us all clubbing together to buy or rent her a flat - she'll hoard in it and let it fall into disrepair) but fear she'll just turn them away every week, start the screaming etc etc. Were you able to keep the cleaner coming, @Tankflybosswalkjam?

OP posts:
Rubytinsleslippers · 07/04/2021 08:41

You are focusing on not upsetting MIL. You have to stop, anything you do will cause a huge backlash.
Get all the services involved, they have seen it all before.
She will try and sack a cleaner- so have it set up that she is not the employer so can't.
Are there any of the sons living close? Hard to coordinate across the globe during a pandemic.
Show her assisted living as the goal but to do this the house must be sold.
Tell her there is no money so this is the option or whatever the family agree. Get FIL assessed, probably already in steep decline if not eating properly. To be harsh, when did you see him? How long has he been withheld food? At 70/80 years old he could be very poorly but hiding it.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 07/04/2021 09:26

Even if they were in the UK which they are not, this would need both their family and multiple services engagement. They living overseas (and in a country which may have expensive healthcare and limited resources in terms of mental health provision) makes this situation a thousand times harder.

Re your comment:-

"We also have the practical problem of where she will stay - if she's taken into the care of mental health services/the police - when she comes out".

TBH it is more likely that if she was ever admitted to some sort of mental institution (which is very unlikely given that she as well as your FIL are currently well below the radar in their home country) she would not be able to leave. If they are forcefully separated what will FIL say and what would happen to FIL?.

Your FIL in the eyes of their laws is an adult with agency (I can see why that policeman said what he did). He can and has made choices here and he has remained with his wife to date for also his own reasons. People have taken out restraining orders against his wife and yet he has remained with her despite all that too. Their relationship is indeed a destructive and codependent one.

All you can do from your end is find out as much as possible about mental health provision and services available in their home country and you may well have to consult lawyers in their home nation. I would find out if there is any provision in law for determining mental capacity.

"Coercive control" may not be a term recognised in their statute books but other laws may be applicable. May I ask what continent you are referring to here re them; is it Asia for instance?.

Therapy for your DH here would be helpful to him if he is willing; growing up in such an environment would have affected him markedly to his own detriment.

WildishBambino · 07/04/2021 10:19

OP, what a terrible story. You mentioned FIL was in a country several time zones away. If it's Singapore, then look at the Vulnerable Adults Act 2018 which was passed in part to deal with elder abuse issues. Responsibility for protecting abused elderly persons comes under the Ministry of Social & Family Development. (Sorry, I could be barking up the wrong tree, but you mentioned the distance from the UK, zoo, property costs, and English speaking nature of the country).
Flowers

yetmorecrap · 07/04/2021 10:21

I think they are in the USA or Canada. I’m not sure what the equivalent of social services are but you need to involve them. All of you have to be prepared for a massive fallout and possibly one of you to take FIL in if necessary. I think this lady is extremely mentally ill and playing along makes it worse. Your family need to realise that the chances of her coming to her senses without external help are nil . I feel so sorry for your FIL, he must know she is very ill mentally.

daysofthunder · 07/04/2021 10:21

Oh wow. I can't even imagine dealing with this. My instinct would be to get FIL in the the car and drive away with him then cut all contact with MIL!

It sounds like FIL wouldn't want this. He sounds completely enmeshed in her madness. This is so sad.

Doidontimmm · 07/04/2021 11:25

I honestly don’t know how your DH and his brothers can stand by and watch their dad be starved and abused. I couldn’t live with myself. Does he realised his dad will die through starvation and what an agonising death that is. Sorry to be dramatic but some sort of intervention is needed, can you speak to the other SILs?

Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 11:38

Just to be clear, FIL has a flat of his own he can go to, which has a fridge, cooking facilities etc. I am sure he gets enough food when he is there (he is perfectly capable of cooking, shopping etc), it's just the times when he takes himself back to MIL and the hotel apartment that I'm worried about. I'm not meaning to downplay the seriousness of her restricting his ability to eat - I find it horrifying - but the bigger problem is him being, as @daysofthunder put it, enmeshed in her madness and unable to stay away.

OP posts:
Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 11:40

Also, I'm sorry to be cagey about the location. I really want to guard against this being linked to people in the real world. It's not in any of the places mentioned but I will say that the conversation I had with the police made me reflect on how a culture of toxic masculinity harms men as well as women.

OP posts:
Doidontimmm · 07/04/2021 11:46

I’m so glad he has somewhere to eat, I was honestly feeling ill at the thought of this poor man being starved and I don’t even know him. I’d have to do something though, I think I’d hate my mum if she did this to my dad. Feel for you.

daysofthunder · 07/04/2021 11:50

@Seashore2018

Just to be clear, FIL has a flat of his own he can go to, which has a fridge, cooking facilities etc. I am sure he gets enough food when he is there (he is perfectly capable of cooking, shopping etc), it's just the times when he takes himself back to MIL and the hotel apartment that I'm worried about. I'm not meaning to downplay the seriousness of her restricting his ability to eat - I find it horrifying - but the bigger problem is him being, as *@daysofthunder* put it, enmeshed in her madness and unable to stay away.

That's really tough. How often does he spend time in his own flat away from her? If he's safe most of the time maybe it's best to cut contact?

Honestly, I just don't know. What would happen if you phoned the police and got social services involved?

We had a family member die recently and it hurts that it could have been avoided. But years of trying to help them didn't work. People don't get better unless they really want to and it seems like your FIL doesn't actually want to be helped at this point in time which must be infuriating for you and your family.

Sarahlou63 · 07/04/2021 11:53

Could you arrange for your FIL to meet with a solicitor and/or doctor at his flat? Or could his sons meet him there and decide on a plan of action?

Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 12:37

@Doidontimmm

I’m so glad he has somewhere to eat, I was honestly feeling ill at the thought of this poor man being starved and I don’t even know him. I’d have to do something though, I think I’d hate my mum if she did this to my dad. Feel for you.
I find it incredibly difficult to wrap my head around the fact that they don't hate her for treating their dad - whom they adore - so appallingly. It's one of the things that makes me realise that there's a complexity to the psychological dimension of all of this that I'm not remotely qualified to understand, and just one of the many reasons to try and get mental health professional involved pronto.
OP posts:
Doidontimmm · 07/04/2021 12:54

I agree, they have definitely been affected somehow growing up like this. I feel so sad this is his life.

randomlyLostInWales · 07/04/2021 13:10

Fear obligation and guilt - fog is often mentioned on here with books by DR Susan Forward being recommended might help explain the paralaysis

It does sound like professional help is needed - so researching the services out there and depending on your relatiionship with your SIL trying a united front in a meeting like Tankflybosswalkjam - with all the sons see if you can get through to them or get a plan agreeded.

It does sound though like a crisis point and local servcies sweeping in is mostly catalyst for change.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 07/04/2021 13:21

This website may be useful to your DH. Its for family members and loved ones of those affected by personality disorders:-

outofthefog.website/

Tankflybosswalkjam · 07/04/2021 13:28

Hi, brother’s girlfriend said right into her face that if she carried on behaving like that she would call the hospital mental health team and she could explain to them why she was behaving like that. But, MIL being unwell, she didn’t stop. So that’s what happened. She was forcibly sectioned, she spent about 18 months in a psych hospital and was eventually discharged into a more appropriate supported living, which came with warden control and cleaners.

Please don’t overthink it - you don’t need to be concerned about where she goes when she comes out. Just get the ball moving. In MIL’s case the neighbours had also contacted social services with their concerns too, and brother’s girlfriend became the main point of contact for agencies because my husband and his siblings, including a well meaning sister, were utterly unable to. She would still call them when she was able, ranting down the phone about how cruel everyone was, how she was being beaten and everyone had stolen her things, massive paranoid rants but as she was stabilised that became less and also the psych hospital was informed that her phone calls had to be supervised. (Husbands sister was guilt tripped into getting her a secret mobile, FFS. The manipulation was unreal.)

It was interesting to see how her family morphed into something unrecognisable around her - utter deference and obedience of even the most illogical bollocks. She died a few years later and I was surprised at how bereft they all were, not one of them saw it as a relief, it was like they were partially defined somehow by their difficult mother, United against a common enemy or something. Really weird dynamics.

Tankflybosswalkjam · 07/04/2021 13:36

to add, FIL had passed away so we only had her to deal with - but assuming you’re in a country with a similar set up to here, aside from getting MIL sectioned, I would also be minded to call social care and keep on and on and on about them needing to do a separate assessment on FIL. Again don’t overthink it. Even if they say no, keep on calling so you’re starting a paper trail so that you can say “we contacted social care 11 times” with dates etc, same with GP. Be a polite and persistent pain in the arse.

Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 14:05

Thank you again @Tankflybosswalkjam. So so helpful to hear how others dealt with it. The sister being guilt tripped into getting her a secret phone sounds exactly like something MIL would do.

Thanks also to those who have posted links about grandiose narcissistic personality disorder and the Out of the Fog site. I am reading and learning.

OP posts:
CyberPixie · 07/04/2021 14:16

Psychotherapist here. Yes, she appears to have a recognisable condition. She needs help and fast. As you're in a different country I can't really advise too much as services vary but contacting social services stating there are 2 vulnerable adults and that she's a danger to herself and others. This can't go on.

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