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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Bad combination of hoarding, delusions of wealth, dangerous housing situation and coercive control (long!)

107 replies

Seashore2018 · 06/04/2021 21:11

I’ve got a very complicated & difficult situation with my MIL and FIL. I’m posting here in case anyone has experienced anything similar and has advice to give. Sorry in advance, it’s long!

MIL and FIL are in their late 70s and 80s and have three sons, one of whom is my DH. All three of the sons are grown with young families of their own. DH and I have lived abroad for some years and, pre-covid, visited every few years.

The heart of the problem is MIL, who has a very bad combination of issues. She is a severe hoarder, to the point where her and FIL’s house became unliveable a few years ago. MIL had a fall and they moved out temporarily while she was recovering, into what was supposed to be temporary accommodation, but it became their permanent base and is now being rented by the week at considerable cost. A combination of many decades of accumulated junk, plus a leaking roof has meant that everything in the house is now covered in mould, vermin are running around, utilities have long been disconnected etc, so no toilet - they were using a bucket Shock. It’s not a place anyone could live in, let alone two elderly people locked in a toxic co-dependent relationship (more on that in a moment). The state of the house is a deep source of shame for MIL, so any attempt to talk to her about it goes nowhere - she just starts screaming hysterically.

Unfortunately, MIL’s hoarding goes along with a delusion that FIL is actually incredibly wealthy and is hiding millions from her, and also has had various mistresses on whom he has lavished his money. According to MIL (who comes from a fairly wealthy family and is addicted to buying absurd lots of gifts from high-end stores to demonstrate both her bounty and her class position Hmm), FIL is loaded and has the ability to buy her the luxury mansion and luxury car that she deserves. Because he won’t do this, she feels justified in making his life a living hell and also letting her own house run into a state of unliveability. (This is a conscious choice on her part - DH has told me various stories, eg. how MIL would make FIL do the family’s laundry when he and his brothers were school-age, and she very deliberately broke the washing machine so he would have to wash the clothes in the bath. So all through his school days, his dad did the family’s laundry in the bath.)

The reality is very far from this. DH, his brothers and I are 100% confident that FIL has never had an affair, does not have millions stashed away and is in fact probably deep in debt from many years of MIL’s performative overspending and complete inability to understand that it makes terrible financial sense to, say, rent a high-end car by the week when you could just buy a more modest secondhand one. As the years have gone on, it’s become increasingly hard to watch his decline: as well as getting frailer, he's gotten progressively thinner and more unkempt. His clothes have become more threadbare and stained, and prior to them moving out of the house you could smell the mould and mustiness on him: it's really not the kind of state a closet millionaire or even someone who was very frugal would allow themselves to get into. It is also very obvious that MIL controls everything he does. This was the norm all through DH’s childhood, and I’ve seen it many times myself: MIL has to have control of the car keys, she controls access to FIL's phone, when she phones DH she will allow FIL only a few short minutes to talk to him and snatches the phone away when she disapproves of what he is saying, etc. Most distressingly of all, FIL seems to have lost the ability to look after himself, including eating enough: his own needs now take second place to MIL's demands, and the need to minimise the abuse he gets from her.

Here's one relatively minor incident that illustrates the difficulty of helping him and stopping her. We were at the the zoo with them and she started ordering him to buy our kids completely unnecessary and ridiculous things from the gift shop, despite our repeated forceful insistence that they didn't need these gifts and that she shouldn't be wasting money on such things. (I'm happy to have grandparents buy our kids treats and presents, but not when I know it'll cause hardship later.) I jumped up and ran after him and told him not to buy the things, and he just said quietly that it was easier to just buy the things than deal with the falllout later. Later that same day she wouldn't let him buy himself anything to eat, and of course we pressed our own snacks on him and got our kids to offer him food (thinking that she wouldn't stoop so low to get angry at small children), but she immediately got angry, jumped in to say no on his behalf, and then he refused anyway because he knew accepting would just mean more abuse later. Shortly afterwards he almost passed out from lack of food. I was absolutely infuriated and got the zoo security people involved (at this point he had to lie down and I was worried he'd need an ambulance to be called, plus she was beginning to get hysterical in front of my kids who are quite young and I didn't want them subjected to her screaming), but he recovered, insisted he was fine and MIL swept them both home.

If you are reading this and thinking ‘This sounds ridiculous: they are adults, why don't they just stop giving in to her?’, it’s because MIL is the most proficient manipulator I have ever met. She controls people with strategic screaming tantrums, and if you're able to stand up to them (as I have, once or twice) then it becomes clear that once you have walked away, she will take out her rage on FIL, so if you continue to cross her then it's him who will suffer. Normally these rages when other people aren’t around, but once I became part of the family I was privy to a few and they are genuinely unbearable - she screams and rants hysterically for literally hours on end and will appear to lose control and put herself in danger (eg. by trying to get out of a car in the middle of the road when stopped at traffic lights). Even if the screaming isn't directed at you, it’s extremely stressful to experience even a few minutes of it. FIL has this all day every day, I suspect, and quite honestly I don’t know how he’s still standing. I don’t even know how she manages it day in day out, as it must be incredibly physically taxing to scream for hours on end, but she does. (When DH was a kid the neighbours occasionally called the police because it got so bad: the police did nothing.)

The obvious solution would be for FIL to leave MIL, but he won’t. It’s a really severe example of coercive control, where he seems to have lost the ability to care for himself or go against her in any way. One of my BILs has rented him a small studio apartment where FIL can go for respite, and he does spend occasional nights there, which is something, but every time he goes away MIL gets even more convinced that he has a mistress somewhere and redoubles her abuse of him when he returns. He seems to feel responsible for her mental health issues and so can’t abandon her (which is an indication both of his integrity, and also of the iron grip she has over him).

In the past decade FIL has had a little bit of money here and there - certainly not in the order MIL thinks, but probably enough to live a modest if frugal retired life. In the past few years, though, it's become clear that his money has completely run out, as he's stopped paying for essential things and has also had to start asking his sons if they can give him money. He obviously finds this very embarrassing but the alternative is getting screamed and shouted at by MIL, so he does it and then passes the money to her (so she thinks it is his, and as he keeps producing money this feeds her delusion that he still has a pile of money stashed somewhere). DH & I would be incredibly happy to give FIL money if we thought he would use it to buy himself food, non-mildewy clothing, and other things to improve his own life, but we know the money won’t be spent on that - he’ll end up giving it to MIL so she can buy herself and others luxuries that should be much further down her priority list than, say, safe and clean accommodation. I think he probably waits until she's screamed herself out and has fallen asleep, and then sneaks into the kitchen to get scraps - he's able to get himself some food but only on her terms.

MIL clearly needs help but will not countenance any suggestion that she has any problems, and will not engage at all with any support we offer. Even a gentle, supportive conversation intended to help her inevitably results, usually within less than a minute, in her hysterical screaming (often the same thing over and over just so she doesn’t hear what we are trying to say) and her repeated insistence that FIL has plenty of money and is hiding it, giving it to his mistress. She hates the idea of taking money from her sons, even though they are all working professionals and in a much better position to fund her than her 80-year-old husband, which is why the money given to FIL which then gets funnelled to her has to be done on the sly. The amount of lies and deception is staggering.

So, that’s the background (and there's plenty more - I’ll give that detail if needed, but I’m trying to keep it as short as possible so as not to put people off reading this).

I’m posting now because after decades of deterioration, things have reached a crisis point. Whatever money was funding MIL & FIL’s stay in the pay-by-the-week expensive apartment hotel seems to have run out, and the hotel is trying to throw them out. MIL has apparently filled one of the rooms with hoarded things already, and has been verbally abusive to the hotel staff, as she eventually is to most people who get in the way of what she wants (she has had multiple restraining orders taken out against her). I suspect one or both of my BILs have been funding the hotel stay (without admitting it to their partners, but that’s another whole thread Angry), but one of them has lost patience with his mother and said he won't pay any longer. I think this is actually a good thing because it may prompt change: the expensive hotel is just a band-aid solution that isn’t at all sustainable long-term. If she and FIL sold their house then they would probably have the money for a modest flat in a retirement complex, where they could get the care they need as they get older, but MIL would consider that far, far beneath her and the luxury house she imagines herself to deserve. Also, she will literally never agree to do anything with FIL - she disagrees with him about the smallest trivial decisions just on principle, so she certainly isn’t going to agree to sell the house they jointly own.

Personally I'm of the opinion that actually this crisis might be something we could take advantage of, so to speak - eg. the hotel gets the police involved and that triggers the involvement of social work and mental health services - but my DH and BILs are very uncomfortable with that (she is their mum after all, even after everything she’s done).

So, I’m posting to see if anyone has a family member or friend who exhibits some combination of these problems. If so, I would love to hear of anything that helped the situation, or even just accounts of how this has played out for other people. If the police or mental health services have become involved, it'd be good to know if that’s been positive or negative. MIL and FIL are not in the UK so I am not as familiar with all the services/laws in their country (coercive control is, for example, unfortunately not illegal there so I don’t know how/whether one could charge MIL with it), but it is an English-speaking country that is very similar to the UK in many ways.

Thank you & sorry that was so long (it was cathartic to type though!)

OP posts:
Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 15:00

@CyberPixie

Psychotherapist here. Yes, she appears to have a recognisable condition. She needs help and fast. As you're in a different country I can't really advise too much as services vary but contacting social services stating there are 2 vulnerable adults and that she's a danger to herself and others. This can't go on.
Thank you @CyberPixie. I feel like she's needed help, and fast, for the past twenty years, but better later than never ...

DH is having a very hard time with the idea of her being institutionalised, so it would be helpful to know (if you or anyone else reading this has professional experience of it) what exactly would happen if an elderly, hysterically screaming woman who was claiming very persuasively that her husband was an alcoholic and hiding money and abusing her was admitted to a mental health facility. Is she likely to be sedated? Will they need her consent to sedate her? Will it be a prison-type place or are they careful these days to make it look more like a residential facility? If she refuses medication, will she be forced to take it? (I don't really care about these things myself - she needs to be removed from FIL and she needs help and probably medication - but I think it would help DH and his brothers to agree to this course of action if they have something of an idea of how she'll be treated, and how humane the process will be.)

OP posts:
Seashore2018 · 07/04/2021 15:09

I also wonder if there's anything we (DH, BILs, SILs) can do in advance to get her sorted with the right kind of support as quickly as possible. Can we tell the police who are local to the hotel apartment place (who I'm guessing will be the ones attending when she is thrown out) that she will tell lies about FIL abusing her, that she will make out that he is an alcoholic (one of her favourite things to say about him, and neither DH or I have ever seen him drunk)? The thing is that if we or FIL were abusing her, then this is the kind of thing we'd do maliciously - prep the police with lies - so who do they trust? She's very, very persuasive and manipulative. Any police officers reading this who have insights on who it is you beileve when you are called to a mental health/domestic violence type situation?

I suppose I could try and get evidence of the restraining orders that have been taken out against her over the years, though I'm guessing there are big data protection issues there and people aren't going to merrily hand over paperwork where they've had to report some distressing and probably very private things. I know it's a different jurisdiction to the UK but any insights at all are helpful at this point.

Feel like I'm asking a lot of questions, so thank you very much to those who are being kind enough to reply Daffodil

OP posts:
rainbowfairydust · 07/04/2021 15:30

Gosh this sounds awful and it will only get worse as FIL gets older and might depend on her even more, he might end up actually starving to death!
I'd tell your husband that his childhood must have impacted their ability to see this is totally unacceptable, they have always lived this way with her being controlling over their father so it's probably not as shocking to them perhaps.
I'd step in and try to contact the Dr over there and ask who else you can contact, maybe they can do repeated drop in visits and might end up sectioning her. Then perhaps she will get a diagnosis and medication. Maybe then things can calm down and improve. Cruel to be kind and I think maybe you need to take control of this incase your husband can't make the decisions that need to be made.
Even speak to the gp confidentially and don't tell your husband or the brothers

Teenytinyvoice · 07/04/2021 15:30

I think the answer to this will vary greatly by location, and whether this is being covered by private medical insurance, state paid for or private?

Mummyratbag · 07/04/2021 15:52

My heart breaks for FIL. It sounds like she will never change and he is not going to get away without help. His health is going to continue to deteriorate and his sons are so under her control they can't/won't do anything. I would want to go and get him in the same way I would an abused child. I wish I had answers for you, but this poor man needs rescuing or DH and BILs are going to have a lot of guilt to deal with if the worst happens. A country that speaks English, many timezones away where there appears to be a culture of grown men don't get abused..hmmmm...I think I can guess. You are doing the right thing trying to help, please don't give up in the face of family apathy and distance. Good luck.

daysofthunder · 07/04/2021 17:41

@Seashore2018

Could you speak to a lawyer about where to begin with all of this? Could you phone a domestic abuse helpline?

Seashore2018 · 08/04/2021 10:55

[quote daysofthunder]@Seashore2018

Could you speak to a lawyer about where to begin with all of this? Could you phone a domestic abuse helpline? [/quote]
BIL and SIL have an appointment with a solicitor lined up soon. So we'll see what results from that.

Those who've said that FIL needs therapy: yes, absolutely agree. All of them need therapy.

OP posts:
daysofthunder · 08/04/2021 13:06

@Seashore2018

Fingers crossed for you that they get somewhere with it.

Sexnotgender · 08/04/2021 13:23

What a heartbreaking situation!

Could you let us know at least what continent we’re looking at as that may help from a practical perspective.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/04/2021 13:28

I have previously asked that question re a continent if not the country, no answer was forthcoming but the OP herself may not have seen it.

Sexnotgender · 08/04/2021 13:34

@AttilaTheMeerkat

I have previously asked that question re a continent if not the country, no answer was forthcoming but the OP herself may not have seen it.
It really would help. We had an issue regarding MILs health a few years back and most uk solutions (personal alarm etc.) were a no go because they were in a gated community in South Africa.
Seashore2018 · 08/04/2021 14:25

It's the Asia-Pacific. I'm sorry, not trying to be coy, just trying to guard against anyone who knows about this situation finding and recognising this thread.

I realise there are country-specific things such as legislation, the way services are configured, etc, that it makes it much harder to advise on if you don't know the country, but what I would value the most is hearing from anyone who has met this particular combination of pathologies in their own parents or elderly relatives. On rare, rare occasions MIL doesn't behave as we all assume she will and I'm hoping to maybe find a tiny chink like this that can be leveraged to get her & FIL help. What I'm mostly discovering though is the overwhelming opinion that it's a matter of leaving it for the professionals. Which my DH and BILs aren't likely to go for anytime soon.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 08/04/2021 14:37

Actually I would get your DH some therapy and fast so he can accept and understand the situation for what it really is. That way he can be the voice of reason/bad guy when it comes to make decisions/getting professionals involved.

MIL actually kicking off and get her out of the "hotel" and properly assessed would be a good start.

Meanwhile just how much debt are they actually in - original house possibly either less etc? Does debt get cancelled when they die where they live or is that going to haunt the brothers in the future?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 08/04/2021 14:55

"On rare, rare occasions MIL doesn't behave as we all assume she will and I'm hoping to maybe find a tiny chink like this that can be leveraged to get her & FIL help".

Sadly it does not work like that. There is nothing you can personally do to make either of them seek help. Both are adults with agency; the phrase you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink applies.

"What I'm mostly discovering though is the overwhelming opinion that it's a matter of leaving it for the professionals".

Correct

"Which my DH and BILs aren't likely to go for anytime soon".
Which is also very sad and its a position that helps no-one and ultimately them least of all. There will be a likely fast moving crisis situation at some point that is really going to make them sit up. Your H certainly needs therapy like yesterday; he like the rest of his now adult siblings have been and remain profoundly affected by growing up within such a home environment.

Is there a family Solicitor for legal advice?. Am glad you gave details of a continent at least because that will help.

Peachy66 · 08/04/2021 15:03

This is so sad to read.

I don't mean to sound harsh but your husband/siblings & Bil need to grow a backbone and help their father. I understand they don't want to upset their mother but surely their Father's wellbeing is paramount with this situation.
Are they aware that by not eating enough their Father could run the risk of disease or organ failure. If this happens it will be much too late for their intervention & wishing they had acted sooner.
I really hope you can find some organisation that can help your FIL & MIL.
I cannot believe your husband and siblings are burying their heads in the sand when they know this situation is wrong on every level.
I am so glad you are trying to source some form of help for your FIL.
You have said your In-Laws are in the Asia-Pacific area. Have you tried contacting:
Agency for Integrated Care (AIC) which acts as a central repository of information for older adults and provides them with referrals and placements with health and social services. Hopefully, they may be able to help or suggest another organisation that will be better suited regarding your In-Laws situation.
Good Luck.

Tankflybosswalkjam · 08/04/2021 15:25

OP, your husband and his family cannot do anything. They’re groomed and trained not to hold her to account.

You have a choice; either risk being seen in the short term as the Bad Guy, by haunting the social care services about the situation, until the professionals step in, or do nothing and watch it continue.

UCOinaUCG · 08/04/2021 15:39

I rather suspect nothing will ch age until they are thrown out of their accommodation and your MIL goes off on one. This may end in the police being called and social services involved which is what is needed.

PissTestRightNowDaniella · 08/04/2021 16:55

There is no 'nicey nicey' solution here, your husband and his brothers need to toughen up and look after their dad first and foremost.

Do they really want their fathers old age years to be like this? No, so they've got to be cruel to be kind. There is no other way.

user1471538283 · 08/04/2021 17:13

This is the sort of shit my DM woukd have pulled had my DF not finally divorced her.

She constantly complained about not having what she deserved, was prone to screaming, was obsessed with money but never wanted to work for it and towards the end took to hiding food.

I am hoping that when they are forced to leave the apartment she throws a big enough fit that she is sectioned and your FIL can finally have a decent life. I really feel for him.

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 08/04/2021 19:35

Get social services and adult safeguarding involved immediately.
The police will get hold of adult safeguarding for you but you all need to tell them whats going on, you cannot shy away from this task.
She needs to be sectioned and he needs to be removed from the situation.
This is horrendous spousal abuse, don't stand back and let it happen.

Seashore2018 · 08/04/2021 21:12

@user1471538283

This is the sort of shit my DM woukd have pulled had my DF not finally divorced her.

She constantly complained about not having what she deserved, was prone to screaming, was obsessed with money but never wanted to work for it and towards the end took to hiding food.

I am hoping that when they are forced to leave the apartment she throws a big enough fit that she is sectioned and your FIL can finally have a decent life. I really feel for him.

I'm sorry, @user1471538283. Going through it as a DIL it's not such an emotional wrench for me as it would be if it were my own parents. I hope your childhood wasn't too awful.

Could I ask whether you had any involvement from mental health professionals? I can see MIL totally refusing to engage with any mental health help until she has to be forcibly restrained and sedated which is going to be horrific for her sons to witness/hear about. (Me, not so much ...). I also genuinely wonder about the effect that being in a state of constant hyped-upness does to someone's health and blood pressure, so if you don't mind me asking, did it have any effect on your DM's health? Did she pass away sooner than expected? (Reading the Out of the Fog boards I can see many, many narcissist parents who live to a ripe old age, so I assume not ...)

OP posts:
CrumbsThatsQuick · 08/04/2021 22:06

To be sectioned, in the UK... you would need to be deemed not to have the mental capacity to make decisions about your own care. If you had committed a criminal offence you might also be detained against you will. I don't think that either of these would be successful dor your MIL given what you have said. I know they are in a different country/ jurisdiction... But, my impression is there is not enough here to get an official intervention which against you MILs will. Therefore social care, whatever that is where they are, working with both MIL and FIL to find a resolution to their situation... with their consent and collaboration seems the only way forward..

CrumbsThatsQuick · 08/04/2021 22:12

To be clear, in the UK... in the current state your MiL is in, she would not be forcibly restrained or sedated unless she demonstrably did not have capacity to make decisions about her care or she was committing criminal offences. I dont think she is at this stage (she is being horrific, but not sectionals in this country)

Seashore2018 · 08/04/2021 22:39

Thank you, @CrumbsThatsQuick - so very helpful to have these kinds of insights. What you've said chimes with what the social work person I spoke to on the phone said. I am kind of hoping that MIL may throw such an almighty tantrum when evicted from the hotel (and with the prospect of being separated from her hoard) that she may present as being a danger to herself or lacking capacity, but she has a way of being very canny and strategic at times and may hold herself back from going too far or say all the right things when she's assessed. Aargh. It's one thing to have lots of people saying 'just call the police, just call social services' but what if they can't section her?

Have been reading the Mental Health Act in the relevant country this evening to get a sense of where the line is between sectionable and not. It's fucking ridiculous - of the six adults in this situation, I am the only one without a professional qualification in a relevant field (I have qualifications of my own, just not in this specific area) and I'm the one looking up the legislation ....

OP posts:
HopelesslyOptimistic · 08/04/2021 22:55

I would make an anonymous report to the police or social services to help support a vulnerable adult. I'm sure a case conference will convene with multi-agencies. If possible an appropriate adult should be present with the FIL to offer support. Not sure of the logistics & perhaps those in social services could offer more advice.

My other response was going to be - what on Earth are the three children doing to help their father. This sounds unbearably sad.