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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Past crime - do leopards really never change their spots

104 replies

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 09:13

I've been seeing a man for nearly a year and have found out (in the context of discussing stupid things we did when we were young) that he shop lifted when he was about 19/20. This didn't sound like a one off thing, more like an ongoing thing until he was caught. He was a student at the time. He's from a reasonably comfortably off family and I can't imagine it would have been for essentials, as such. I was pretty taken aback, and didn't say much. He didn't seem focussed on if being wrong, he talked more about the effect in his career/job interviews - because his previous job (he changed career a couple of years back) involved access to confidential records and he had to declare the conviction for ship lifting even though it's spent or whatever the right term is. He said he also had to for a recent application to teach part-time in an FE college - because it's young people. He seemed more focussed on the embarrassment or having to declare it and maybe talk about it interviews than anything else.

I should make it clear we're in our mid 30s now (me a bit older, with kids whereas he has none; I met him through one of my kids hobbies). He has a decent job (though not well paid), he's studying part-time, and he's on the housing ladder with a doer-upper, but I can't help wondering about his honestly and character as a result of this. I've spoken to my closest friend about this and their strong view is "leopards don't change their spots, I'd be very wary about him around money etc.".

Before I knew about this I let him use my card a few times to do chip & pin and to get cash out of the cash machine when I was busy with kids etc. Had I known I probably wouldn't have. I can obviously change the pin and avoid asking him to use it again (though he might notice & wonder why I've totally stopped asking him to use the card) but it still makes me uneasy. I feel like I have to think about what access to money he has, not be able to have it lying around the house etc. And also about things like taking him into relatives houses, which I would do for parties etc.

I can be a bit disorganised with money and couldnt even say for sure that nothing was taken (in small amounts) from my account during the period he's known the pin and had access to the card. I mentioned to him that I felt like I had less money in my account than I should have at times etc. and I couldn't really read his expression, he didn't seem to look guilty or anything; he just said if I thought I had less than I should have or didn't know where my money was going, I needed to get all my statements and go through them with a fine tooth comb etc.

I've also remembered that he found something he gave my eldest (who tbh has not liked anyone I've been involved with) shoved in the dresser in the kitchen/dining room and I can't remember why he said he was looking in there (maybe for a pen) but I'm wondering if that's really why he was looking through it. My friend thinks he was going through it for cash etc.

I've not had much luck with relationships in the last few years and thought I'd met a good one. He doesn't seem to have much money to spare (eg he doesn't run a car, he cycles to work - he said he can't really afford one while he's doing up the house) but he has really made an effort on special occasions (got me a lovely hotel break for my birthday). But this is playing in my mind.

OP posts:
AdventureCode · 02/03/2021 11:30

I'd stop sharing your card with any and everyone for a start op, especially with teenagers. No wonder your friends are protective of you.

Look, i think its 1 in 4 adults in the UK have a criminal background of some kind with most convictions happening whilst under 30. Chances are you interact with someone with a conviction every single day, they could include your family and friends they simply don't tell you as they dont want to be judged. And that's not including those who weren't caught. Most people grow out of the risk taking that got them into trouble in the first place, or move away from the bad influences of their past.

This man seems to hold a responsible job and saved enough to buy a house and shows ongoing financial commitment to doing it up. If a FE college deems him safe and he clearly doesn't have further convictions you didn't know about which would bar him from certain work and to be of very poor character. I think if you trusted him before, give him a chance. However you owe noone a relationship, if you now feel he's not for you, fine. But dont use this as a stick to beat him with forever.
People can change if they want to, especially if it was done during their younger years.

Tallybeebloom · 02/03/2021 11:42

You're really holding onto his past, despite not having anything to suggest that's who he is now. I absolutely disagree with the idea of 'a leopard doesn't change its spots', people absolutely do and can change, particularly from who they were as teenagers, young adults.

picklemewalnuts · 02/03/2021 11:44

I was all set to say no, a leopard can't change its spots. But shoplifting at 20 is very different to a crime with a visible victim at 30.
I wouldn't ever trust someone who had deliberately hurt others. Someone who stole from a faceless business when they were a youth, less bothered.

He was influenced by someone else, presumably away from home, possibly strapped for cash- it's not an unusual mistake to make, and he's been punished for it.

gannett · 02/03/2021 11:52

OP, your friend has very black-and-white thinking. Of course people can change from when they were teenagers. Think about all the silly things you did then that you wouldn't do now. And it goes the other way too, I know people who by all accounts never stepped out of line when they were young go off the rails with mid-life crises.

Having said that I think you should make an effort to be more on-the-ball with your finances. Not specifically because of your BF but because it's just a good habit to be aware of your incomings and outgoings. And then if he or anyone else does try to scam you, you'll know about it based on something more concrete than vague suspicions and cliches.

Eckhart · 02/03/2021 11:53

Did you do things at 19/20 that you would frown upon now?

BitOfFun · 02/03/2021 11:53

Unless there is some other reason not to trust him, I'd completely dismiss it as a stupid thing he did when young.

How many threads do you read on here where perfectly ordinary mumsnetters admit to shoplifting years ago? Or to feeling ashamed about nicking from their mum's purse, say? It is fairly common to have behaved in a way which would be utterly alien to them now, and I suspect you'd have far fewer pals if you allowed this one very judgemental "friend" to forensically examine their pasts.

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 11:55

@KarensChoppyBob

I agree OP.

Was pointing out that your surprise at his appearance/class combined his past was unfounded.

Fair enough, it just seems more common for people from deprived backgrounds to get caught up in petty crime etc.
OP posts:
AllMyPrettyOnes · 02/03/2021 12:00

I'd not let this bother me too much. I know quite a few people (some being my step-family) who did prison time when they were younger, but who are now really decent, nice people. People most certainly can change.

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:00

I'd stop sharing your card with any and everyone for a start op, especially with teenagers

A steady partner who up to that point I had no reason to think had a history of shop lifting/theft and my teenagers - who mostly work (often handling money) and are responsible; is hardly any and everybody.

OP posts:
Crimeismymiddlename · 02/03/2021 12:04

This is a funny one. As he was so young it should be easy to write it off to a youthful indiscretion, but I had friends that shoplifted, and one that stole someone’s bank card and spent loads of money on it and it made me change how I saw them, not trusting them less per say more thinking that the persona that they projected was false and that I needed to distance myself from them.

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:11

@KarensChoppyBob

I think him telling you willingly about it smacks of honesty and a sense of responsibility. He obviously feels strongly about you too, to have let his guard down like that, he didn't have to.
We've both told each other we love each other.

He is quite "filter less" at times though.
About things like this and also about past relationships etc.

OP posts:
MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:13

I know quite a few people (some being my step-family) who did prison time when they were younger, but who are now really decent, nice people

What did they do prison time for?

Would that not have to be quite serious.

OP posts:
thosetalesofunexpected · 02/03/2021 12:17

@MarshmallowAra

Op
I would say trust your emotion-gut instincts.
Don't be so Naive in future just letting him use your bank card without knowing him for a long/good time or letting your teenagers use your bank card whenever they feel like it.

The fact your partner has mentioned about his past to you,when he did not have to shows emotional integrity (honestly).
He is being open and vulnerable to you.

People can change with right kind
of support often and without it too.

Don't hold his youthful misdeamer against him,.
Don't let your friends/family influence your decision, whether to continue this relantship or not.

Have a honest talk conversation about this aspect of your relantship ,and say how confused youfeel finding out about this ect.

(Don't accuse/or be Judgemental of him in any way.

I had a toxic relantship with an ex partner who was dodgy as fuck ,but to outsiders he looks the part of Mr nice facade.
He has got away with emptying his fathers will bank account through drinking Addication.
He also lied/helped his now dead friend to get compensation claim for a fall his friend had outside his flat cause he was totally pissed of his head,not cause of any genuine reasons.
And other really disgusting dodgy stuff such as a female flatmate of his woke up from sleeping finding my ex partner doing oral sex on her whilst she was sleeping.

What i am saying op this guy sounds like he regrets /is embarrassed by his past misdeemer he was easily influenced at that time,he has grown up and showing some kind of responsiblity.
Its Ok if you feel is no longer the right guy for you, give him a chance to prove himself to you,if you think he is worth it, he paid the price for his past misdeemer leave it in the past.
But do not be Niave aswell.

There's some men like my ex partner who are seriously dodgy suspect as fucking hell ,have got away it and could not care less about the way they are like,
those are the ones to seriously worry about op.
Not so much your partner.

EvenMoreFuriousVexation · 02/03/2021 12:18

Most teens shoplift at some point, surely? I was an absolute thieving magpie from around 15 to 21, started with clothes and makeup, graduated to twoccing cars and ripping out the stereos. Never got caught.

He sounds like he learned his lesson and it's unlikely to ever be repeated. But it also sounds like you can't let this go, so I'd end the relationship if that were me.

And STOP giving your card and pin to people! As soon as you do that you've just blown to bits your financial protection in the event the card or pin is used fraudulently. Including the very likely scenario of your teen going out with your card and getting pick-pocketed. You'd have no protection for anything.

Unless you were prepared to lie to the bank and say you hadn't given it to anyone. Which would be insurance fraud... or to put it another way, theft.

RantyAnty · 02/03/2021 12:24

I think I would want to see the record of the conviction.

Agree with PPs about getting more serious about your bank account and finances and access to them.

Bagamoyo1 · 02/03/2021 12:25

I’m astounded you hand your card around so freely! I’d never give my partner my card, and we’ve been together for 5 years. You seem ridiculously trusting - I wonder if that’s one of the things that attracted you to him.

Bagamoyo1 · 02/03/2021 12:26

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

Most teens shoplift at some point, surely? I was an absolute thieving magpie from around 15 to 21, started with clothes and makeup, graduated to twoccing cars and ripping out the stereos. Never got caught.

He sounds like he learned his lesson and it's unlikely to ever be repeated. But it also sounds like you can't let this go, so I'd end the relationship if that were me.

And STOP giving your card and pin to people! As soon as you do that you've just blown to bits your financial protection in the event the card or pin is used fraudulently. Including the very likely scenario of your teen going out with your card and getting pick-pocketed. You'd have no protection for anything.

Unless you were prepared to lie to the bank and say you hadn't given it to anyone. Which would be insurance fraud... or to put it another way, theft.

That really isn’t normal teen behaviour. You must know that surely?
youvegottenminuteslynn · 02/03/2021 12:27

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation

Most teens shoplift at some point, surely? I was an absolute thieving magpie from around 15 to 21, started with clothes and makeup, graduated to twoccing cars and ripping out the stereos. Never got caught.

He sounds like he learned his lesson and it's unlikely to ever be repeated. But it also sounds like you can't let this go, so I'd end the relationship if that were me.

And STOP giving your card and pin to people! As soon as you do that you've just blown to bits your financial protection in the event the card or pin is used fraudulently. Including the very likely scenario of your teen going out with your card and getting pick-pocketed. You'd have no protection for anything.

Unless you were prepared to lie to the bank and say you hadn't given it to anyone. Which would be insurance fraud... or to put it another way, theft.

Christ, I don't think that's regular teen behaviour (and into your twenties) to be honest!
HeartsAndClubs · 02/03/2021 12:28

A steady partner who up to that point I had no reason to think had a history of shop lifting/theft and my teenagers - who mostly work (often handling money) and are responsible; is hardly any and everybody. yes it is. And it is beyond stupid to do so.

If your bank account is defrauded you will have 0 protection because the terms are very specific, that only you can have access to your bank account.

if your teenagers fancy taking out an extra tenner they know that you’re lax enough with your finances that you’ll never notice.

How long have you been letting this man use your card? You say he’s your partner of a year, so I’m guessing you’ve been letting him use your card for the majority of that time? In which case you could have had no idea.

The reason scammers get away with fraud etc is because of people like you who care so little about their money that they’re prepared to allow all and sundry to have access to it.

duchesspodcast · 02/03/2021 12:30

Is it that you're picking up on a lack of regret, or sense that it was morally wrong? What's he like normally with personal responsibility/conscience?

I once stole something at about 17 and if I talked about it now (still wouldn't!) it would be with a sense of shame or at least acknowledgement that it was wrong.

I'd keep an eye on the way he acts ethically (I know that sounds pompous but if we're going to share our life with someone we want them to be honest and take responsibility)

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:33

graduated to twoccing cars and ripping out the stereos.

Twoccing?

I thought a certain percentage might have shop lifted but not the majority.

OP posts:
Eckhart · 02/03/2021 12:34

I suppose the real question is: Do you trust him?

It's a yes or no question. If you don't know, it's 'no'.

I'm thinking that if the answer was 'yes', you wouldn't have posted.

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:36

if your teenagers fancy taking out an extra tenner they know that you’re lax enough with your finances that you’ll never notice.

They gave no reason to do that without telling me - I would not say no without really good reason. And they earn their own money too.

They buy stuff for the house - entertainment and tech stuff.

In regard to a newish partner, no I shouldn't have gotten him to use the card.

OP posts:
sergeilavrov · 02/03/2021 12:41

It feels like you’ve made your mind up about him, and if that’s the case, you owe this man the respect to be honest and not lead him on. I think - as do many MNers here - that you’re being over sensitive due to your past relationships and your retrospective bias is shaping your perception of him. But that won’t change your position.

My best friend shoplifted because he was bored in his late teens. It was a creative enterprise, not a financial one, while he also had angst about the tyranny of big business. He was competent/lucky enough not to be caught, and now is the PI doing cutting edge cancer research. I’d trust him with my life: he is very honest and he shared that story freely. I’d be horrified if someone took that one element of him and dismissed him on that basis, but I’d also know it’s their loss of being with a wonderful person. Think about what you felt for him, whether you trusted him, prior to his honesty with you. That may help you identify your own biases more systematically.

MarshmallowAra · 02/03/2021 12:42

Is it that you're picking up on a lack of regret, or sense that it was morally wrong?

I didnt pick up regret/remorse - more just how embarrassing & inconvenient it is to have to declare it and maybe talk about during job apps.

And I got the same vibe when we talked about past relationships and he talked about essentially cheating on an ex from when he was 25 (there was no sex bur there was sexual contact).

(I haven't cheated on anyone - though I have cheated with someone, so I'm not saying I've been perfect).

OP posts: