Help me navigate this PIL issue

[OrganicCoffeeBeans]

When we arrange to see PIL who live a bit of a distance from us, it's a day trip, so I try and make it an outing. They actually really like this. I also do it because I have 3 DC from teens down and they can't sit around.

So, for example, if there is a castle we want to go to, a historic town we want to visit or a fete (all pre-Covid of course) I will arrange to meet them there. We will do the activity, have a picnic or lunch or get a nice coffee and cake.

Here is the issue. Whenever I do this, the first thing my MIL says is "are you going to invite SIL and her husband?" If I am not straight on it, she gets upset or a bit angry. SIL and her DH are 50+ and have no DC and live a couple of hours away from PIL.

I have invited them in the past but it basically spoils the day. SIL openly doesn't like me and I don't know why she comes. DH and I are not keen on her DH as he is really pretentious. They turn up late, end up influencing what we do and what we eat (it's got to be somewhere posh) and my DC get no time with PIL as they just fuss over SIL and her DH. We are basically taggers on during our own day out. I'm also sure that if I was allowed to sit and talk to MIL on my own and have a nice time, we would have a better relationship. When SIL is there MIL is mindful not to say anything nice to me or pay me any attention. I am having a pop at my SIL but she is really childish.

In the past, I have invited PIL on days out, meals out, weekends away, special occasions at our house, holidays, and every time she insists that SIL and her DH are invited. Of course, I am happy to do it sometimes but I'm sick of doing it all the time. SIL and her DH do loads of activities and days out and weekends away but don't invite PIL to any of them. They have never invited us to anything they do either.

Covid allowing, I'd like to plan some things for the summer holiday and a lot of these take us near to PIL's house. They will get upset if we don't include them and it enables me to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

How can I say to MIL that I don't want to always invite SIL and her DH to everything we do and if they want to do things then they can invite them themselves. MIL will kick-off but it is either this or I stop including PIL. My DH won't say anything as he is too laid back. I know I have a DH problem here too.

@HollowTalk

The thing is that you are showing your children that it's okay to martyr yourself and not stand up for yourself, and it's okay for relatives to treat you badly.

How you are with your own children will determine your relationship with the women they marry. Keep putting everything into that relationship with your boys and you'll be fine.

And karma doesn't exist!

Agree with the first paragraph completely but at the risk of repeating myself, the OP can do all the right things with her relationship with her own children but there are still unknown variables, most obviously other peoples personalities, own family cultures, etc. Plenty of splendid parents have ended up with rotten daughter or son-in-laws! The underlying pattern here is that I think the OP thinks if she just does everything right then everything will turn out right, or that she's missing some knack of how to deal with these people and if she found out what is was, all would be well. That is to my mind quite unhealthy thinking and bound to leave her disappointed

@OrganicCoffeeBeans My mother tried this, with her MIL. It was pretty clear that MIL didn't like my mother, and blamed her on taking my father from the UK to live on the other side of the world - in fact, my mother only found out when my father left her that his father, her FIL had been terminally ill when they left, and my father had known, but not told my mother. FIL died 6 months later, and MIL firmly blamed my mother for that, too.

When we came back to the UK when I was 10, we actually stayed with MIL for 3 months...I look back and count them as amongst the worst months of my life. MIL hated my mother, my mother hated MIL, so you can imagine the atmosphere myself and my two brothers had to live in...and this was on top of 2 other stressful international moves we'd already had to make that year. Whenever we went out with my mother for the day, we used to beg her not to take us back to MIL's...

Neither myself or my brothers ever really cultivated much of a relationship with my grandmother. Personally I couldn't forget those awful months, and 40 years later I still can't understand why my parents were so stupid as to make us live with someone who had made it quite clear she hated my mother...

I don't respect my mother for any of it, to be frank. She martyred herself for no good reason. She probably thought we didn't realise what was going on - but of course not being totally deaf, dumb or blind we did.

SIL and her DH do loads of activities and days out and weekends away but don't invite PIL to any of them

Conversely, do your PIL organise any days out and invite SIL - and if so does she go to those?

It's hard to work out the dynamic here, especially since she sees MIL regularly and doesn't have any DCs who MIL might worry about "not seeing if she upsets her"

As for what to do, personally I'd go with saying nicely that you really want it to be just the few of you, and if MIL still insists going with maybe seeing her another time

There was a similar dynamic in DH family basically SIL is/was insecure and didn't want to share MIL with DH let alone our DC.

Ironically SIL ditched MIL after she divorced and found a new partner that is far better than her ex. By then the damage was done SIL and her DC always had preferential treatment we were not permitted to invite PIL to our home without her so we gave up.

PIL will have to lean on SIL for help in their later years although I don't think she bothers much with them anymore.

Leave them OP. You don't have to arrange anything with them or even talk to them.

How many times has MiL arranged something with you? Just you and your family, without SiL? I am betting 0. So if MiL doesn't care about arranging anything with you then you shouldn't feel bad to just let it all go. Feel relieved about not having to see SiL ever again too.

@RandomMess

"No, not this time"

When she kicks off just ask "if you don't want to spend quality time with just us then you don't have to come."

This.

Don't mention why as it will make you seem petty/personal/mean (however MIL interprets it).

Instead just say as RandomMess said "no, not this time".

When she asks why, say you'd like it to just be you guys. No need for in-depth reasons. If she can't respect that then just say "ok well maybe we'll rearrange then, we'll be in touch later in the year" and leave it at that.

It would be different if it was the only change they had to meet but if they're meeting without you then it's bloody hypocritical.

Your DH can afford to be laidback because you're the one taking on the stress of it!
Does he put the work in to organise any visits to your family?

This was never yours to try and sort out on your H's behalf. His own inertia when it comes to his family of origin as well as his FOG (fear obligation and guilt) hurt him as well as you. Not all families are nice and kind and your ILs along with their daughter as your SIL are not nice at all. They have no loyalty to you or for that matter to their son.

Never JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain) your decisions with someone like your MIL (I would imagine SIL is of a similar nature to MIL). SIL here is certainly more favoured whilst your DH is the scapegoat of that family unit.

And as HollowTalk wrote earlier:-

"How you are with your own children will determine your relationship with the women they marry. Keep putting everything into that relationship with your boys and you'll be fine".

They turn up late, end up influencing what we do and what we eat (it's got to be somewhere posh) This is your perfect excuse. Invite your GPILs if you want to and when told to invite the SIL and her DH you say that you are planning on eating in McD's or where-ever you want. If they say that they want to eat somewhere else then that's fine - they can. You will see them another time.

If they agree to castle and your tickets are for 10, then with Covid you will have to go in at 10. You need to tell them there are timeslots and you need to leave their ticket at the gate (or remind them to join you at McD's or your nice cafe or wherever afterwards).

You are being used here by your DH as a buffer between him and his parents and sister. Remove yourself from this dynamic immediately before you get further over invested and hurt in the process. He needs to step up now and stand up for himself in his own right. That however, won't be easy for him to achieve given he grew up with them and was conditioned to think their behaviour and treatment of him is "normal".

Shame that your MIL does not want to spend time with her grandchildren. However you can't force her to. Just be available, be there and let her join you if she chooses. Don't change your plans to fit in with her DD this time. Let her DD fit in with you, or opt out.

[quote noirchatsdeux]@OrganicCoffeeBeans My mother tried this, with her MIL. It was pretty clear that MIL didn't like my mother, and blamed her on taking my father from the UK to live on the other side of the world - in fact, my mother only found out when my father left her that his father, her FIL had been terminally ill when they left, and my father had known, but not told my mother. FIL died 6 months later, and MIL firmly blamed my mother for that, too.

When we came back to the UK when I was 10, we actually stayed with MIL for 3 months...I look back and count them as amongst the worst months of my life. MIL hated my mother, my mother hated MIL, so you can imagine the atmosphere myself and my two brothers had to live in...and this was on top of 2 other stressful international moves we'd already had to make that year. Whenever we went out with my mother for the day, we used to beg her not to take us back to MIL's...

Neither myself or my brothers ever really cultivated much of a relationship with my grandmother. Personally I couldn't forget those awful months, and 40 years later I still can't understand why my parents were so stupid as to make us live with someone who had made it quite clear she hated my mother...

I don't respect my mother for any of it, to be frank. She martyred herself for no good reason. She probably thought we didn't realise what was going on - but of course not being totally deaf, dumb or blind we did.[/quote]
Perhaps your parents didn't have the finances to get their own place initially.

Perhaps they didnt think 12 weeks would make a big impact on you kids.

Perhaps they didn't think you'd pick up on the tension.

I don't think it's fair to call your mum a martyr over it when she was probably doing her best.

What are you getting out of this?
I can't see why you wouldn't just hand it over to your DH. If nothing happens, so be it.
I don't do any wife work and consequently we hardly see DH's fucking annoying family. Suits me.

@HighSpecWhistle My father was earning £30K a year when the average UK wage for a man was £3K...they had the money, but my mother wouldn't sort out accommodation without my father being there - he was working abroad and sent us to the UK.

That was 12 weeks out of what turned out to be a total of 6 years of being dragged around the world. In that 6 years we missed 2 and a half years of school.

Both my MIL and mother had no qualms about arguing in front of us. Believe me, it was impossible to ignore.

My mother hated being a mother and frequently blames having children on why my father left her. She is a raging narcissist.

I take it from your post you don't know what it is like to have a father who never wanted children in the first place and a mother who only had them because she was Catholic and it was 'expected'.

@OrganicCoffeeBeans - I was very taken by the post you mentioned where you were accused of keeping your DH and his family apart (or away from each other) and of being a gatekeeper.
You need to set the record straight the next time you're all together and say something along these lines:
"Great, you're all here so I want to clear something up. From now on, DH will be organising when and where we all meet up. If you don't hear from us, it's because DH hasn't organised anything. If you want to meet up, talk to DH. Please don't think I'm being rude but I'm not keeping you away from each other and I'm not the gatekeeper of your family. I am stepping back from organising any further meetings of us all as it was clearly causing tension between all of us and I want us all to get along. Now that I've said my piece, anyone for more tea or coffee??"

*Both my grandmother and mother that should say...

I'd also like to add (as I've posted on here about previously) my father tried to dump his whole family when I was 12 - he planned to send us back to Australia, on the premise that he would join us when his visa came through (British passport holder, had refused to take Australian citizenship when it was offered when I was 5). He'd even arranged new accommodation for just for himself and hadn't given notice at his UK job. His plan fell through as his visa arrived the morning we flew back...

He admitted all the above to my mother at the time and she still stayed with him. Her marriage meant more to her than the happiness of her 3 children.

I still wish to this day that his plan had succeeded.

I think I am going to do that Lookitsmeagain.
Thx

@OrganicCoffeeBeans

I think I am going to do that Lookitsmeagain. Thx

Sometimes I think it's better to just call it like it is, so few people are able to do that though. They skirt around things, huff, puff complain etc. sometimes over years and all for the lack of one decent clear-the-air conversation. Good luck OP, you've been a sport on this thread and I think the buggers are very lucky to have you!

Life is too short to be wasting family time in the company of people that I don't get on with. Tell MIL that you will be happy to go on a day out that SIL and DH will be arranging your days out from now on.

@OrganicCoffeeBeans

I think I am going to do that Lookitsmeagain. Thx

Excellent.

I did all the contact managing for years. The other son and DIL did none. It was when we were dumped last minute in favour of them (we live over 100 miles away), told we and our children would not be given a meal when we visited at Christmas that I asked myself why I was doing all the running.

So I stopped. I left it to DH. If they rang to ask why we hadn't been in touch I'd pass the phone to him with "I don't know, DH sorts all that out," and it has been SO great. No more pass/agg, no stress.

When I am older I want to have a good relationship with my sons and DD. I can't expect them to want to know me if I have set the precedent of not cultivating relationships with GP's myself.

Don't be daft. You model the behaviour for them in that you arrange contact with your family and your DH arranges contact with his mother. Then your own DSs will see that it is completely normal that their future spouse doesn't have to do it for them.

[quote noirchatsdeux]@HighSpecWhistle My father was earning £30K a year when the average UK wage for a man was £3K...they had the money, but my mother wouldn't sort out accommodation without my father being there - he was working abroad and sent us to the UK.

That was 12 weeks out of what turned out to be a total of 6 years of being dragged around the world. In that 6 years we missed 2 and a half years of school.

Both my MIL and mother had no qualms about arguing in front of us. Believe me, it was impossible to ignore.

My mother hated being a mother and frequently blames having children on why my father left her. She is a raging narcissist.

I take it from your post you don't know what it is like to have a father who never wanted children in the first place and a mother who only had them because she was Catholic and it was 'expected'.[/quote]
I feel for you, that sounds tough. It mustn't be nice to grow up feeling unloved and unprioritised.

I didn't get that from your first message as it seemed you were upset about your mother and MIL arguing when actually it sounds like that was just the tip of the iceberg. Your mother sounds awful, I'm sorry you had that experience ☹️

@SpiderGwen

* It was when we were dumped last minute in favour of them (we live over 100 miles away), told we and our children would not be given a meal when we visited at Christmas that I asked myself why I was doing all the running.*

Were you actually at your PILs when they did this - or did they ha e the tiniest grace to tell you before you left home?

I have to say, either way that would have been the end of encouraging the relationship for me. 🌹

I did all the contact managing for years. The other son and DIL did none. It was when we were dumped last minute in favour of them (we live over 100 miles away), told we and our children would not be given a meal when we visited at Christmas that I asked myself why I was doing all the running.

So I stopped. I left it to DH. If they rang to ask why we hadn't been in touch I'd pass the phone to him with "I don't know, DH sorts all that out," and it has been SO great. No more pass/agg, no stress.

Similar story here, except they did it when we were there (left us for hours waiting for them in their freezing cold house without so much as a biscuit to feed our toddler - every phone call was “we’re just leaving X’s now”). We had travelled for 5 hours and stayed in a hotel for that shit.

So many times they had been utterly shitty to us. It ended that day. DH now manages all contact with his family which means there is little. He takes Dd up there once a year without me and makes sure there is enough to do without relying on them as they are bound to drop them in favour of something else to that they could do any time.

We bought a big house so there were no issues with them visiting. They haven’t bothered for 6 or 7 years now so we’ve converted all the rooms. I don’t bother with them at all any more.