Help me navigate this PIL issue

[OrganicCoffeeBeans]

When we arrange to see PIL who live a bit of a distance from us, it's a day trip, so I try and make it an outing. They actually really like this. I also do it because I have 3 DC from teens down and they can't sit around.

So, for example, if there is a castle we want to go to, a historic town we want to visit or a fete (all pre-Covid of course) I will arrange to meet them there. We will do the activity, have a picnic or lunch or get a nice coffee and cake.

Here is the issue. Whenever I do this, the first thing my MIL says is "are you going to invite SIL and her husband?" If I am not straight on it, she gets upset or a bit angry. SIL and her DH are 50+ and have no DC and live a couple of hours away from PIL.

I have invited them in the past but it basically spoils the day. SIL openly doesn't like me and I don't know why she comes. DH and I are not keen on her DH as he is really pretentious. They turn up late, end up influencing what we do and what we eat (it's got to be somewhere posh) and my DC get no time with PIL as they just fuss over SIL and her DH. We are basically taggers on during our own day out. I'm also sure that if I was allowed to sit and talk to MIL on my own and have a nice time, we would have a better relationship. When SIL is there MIL is mindful not to say anything nice to me or pay me any attention. I am having a pop at my SIL but she is really childish.

In the past, I have invited PIL on days out, meals out, weekends away, special occasions at our house, holidays, and every time she insists that SIL and her DH are invited. Of course, I am happy to do it sometimes but I'm sick of doing it all the time. SIL and her DH do loads of activities and days out and weekends away but don't invite PIL to any of them. They have never invited us to anything they do either.

Covid allowing, I'd like to plan some things for the summer holiday and a lot of these take us near to PIL's house. They will get upset if we don't include them and it enables me to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

How can I say to MIL that I don't want to always invite SIL and her DH to everything we do and if they want to do things then they can invite them themselves. MIL will kick-off but it is either this or I stop including PIL. My DH won't say anything as he is too laid back. I know I have a DH problem here too.

I don't know if you're doing it because you're seeking someones approval, or deep down you get something from the conflict with SIL and arguing with your DH, but it's an odd thing for you to continue doing.

I do it because I am not a hypocrite. When I am older I want to have a good relationship with my sons and DD. I can't expect them to want to know me if I have set the precedent of not cultivating relationships with GP's myself. I certainly do not like a conflict with anyone, or I would have taken the opportunity to cause a rift over this already.

I think you could stop making the effort tbh. It doesn't sound like you or your kids have a nice time and your DH isn't bothered so why are you?

Why don't you just have nice days out doing what you want without them? If your SIL doesn't like your MIL talking to you when she's there and your MIL is wierd enough to go along with this, I doubt she's going to be ok with you being there without her!

If your PIL ask about meeting up, say of course, let us know when and where and expect it never to happen.

Cross post. I think unless you're planning to be as odd as your MIL you're being a bit paranoid about that scenario...

I only have boys and get on well with my DH's family but they're nice and kind. I don't see how putting up with bad behaviour would ensure I had a good relationship with my son's families in future.

@OrganicCoffeeBeans

You are tying yourself in knots for people who frankly don't seem to have much care for you or your feelings and perhaps even see you as 'the enemy'

This is actually very true. I think I do it because I have a couple of sons and am avoiding bad karma.

There is no 'karma'. Continue to be a decent person yourself and in turn with your sons and any partners they have and the chips will fall as they may. They may end up with someone awful and you can choose to drop the rope on that too. You are allowing yourself to be a passive recipient of however other people decide to treat you rather than an active participant in deciding on how relationships are going to work FOR YOU. I know these things are not so simple and we have so much ingrained behaviours where as women and mothers we feel it's our responsibility to keep the show on the road, be the glue that holds the generations together. And that is lovely and worthy if we are respected and the relationships are basically kind and mutually fulfilling. But this does not sound like that scenario so that's why I suggest you stop trying to be that person because you are trying to create something out of parts that just don't work together.

When I am older I want to have a good relationship with my sons and DD. I can't expect them to want to know me if I have set the precedent of not cultivating relationships with GP's myself

That comes from cultivating your own relationship with your own children.

Currently all you are showing your sons is that they must get a good wife to do all the work for them.

And you might want to have a think about what your DH is showing his sons?

There is no bad karma from not arranging things. I echo PP it is not your job to be the glue. You could say that we are going to x castle on x date. If you want to come we can see you at 10am, I’m booking pizza express for 1pm as the children like it there and this is a day out for them. Let me know if I should book for you to come too.
If she then asks if you’re inviting SIL you could say that she’s welcome to tell her you are going but this is your plan for the day.
Personally I wouldn’t bother inviting them, not my family not my problem, it’s up to DH to sort it (and if he did I would happily fall in with plans, I’m just not taking responsibility for his relationships).

OP, what is wrong with you? Are you masochistic? You DH is not bothered, why do you keep arranging holidays/days out with his family? Your SIL openly dislikes you, your MIL is not nice either. Can't you go on day out or holiday in the other direction? Why do you insist on having them around?

I think you have your answer. Disengage, let your DH organise things or not. When (if) you see everyone be bright, breezy and friendly. Your children will see in your behaviour that you are a good decent person and I’m sure they have been brought up like that. Your future role as a potential MiL won’t be determined by you organising trips to castles with people who shun you or marginalise you.

So this is all about you then?

What you are showing your children is that your in laws have no regard for you and that when they have their own in laws, they should expect to be treated badly and to suck it up .

What you're also showing them is that women do the wife work and that if they want to have a relationship with you , their partners will have to facilitate it.

Stop doing the wife work for your DH , let him organise his own parents and sister.

I really don't understand partners who try to force contact on behalf of their DHs ... grown men not being able to do their own life admin .

You could invite them to part of the day out? So do kids activity with PIL and invite SIL to posh lunch/dinner. Frame it as "I'm sure they'll find kids activity boring" And invite them before inviting PIL so it's already arranged so when she says "can you invite SIL" you can say "they are meeting us at X at X time"

Well leave it to your DH to arrange then, if he doesn’t then you don’t see them - any of them. It’s not your responsibility to be the family glue especially if you are being pushed out.

Exactly.

You are tying yourself in knots for people who frankly don't seem to have much care for you or your feelings and perhaps even see you as 'the enemy'

Spot on.

Focus on your relationship with your DH and your DC.

@OrganicCoffeeBeans

I don't know if you're doing it because you're seeking someones approval, or deep down you get something from the conflict with SIL and arguing with your DH, but it's an odd thing for you to continue doing.

I do it because I am not a hypocrite. When I am older I want to have a good relationship with my sons and DD. I can't expect them to want to know me if I have set the precedent of not cultivating relationships with GP's myself. I certainly do not like a conflict with anyone, or I would have taken the opportunity to cause a rift over this already.

But you have no guarantees that they will be with someone who wants to have a good relationship with you! And that will have nothing to do with the relationship you have now with your children's grandparents. There's not some bank where if you make X deposits of love, care, sucking things up that you'll get to withdraw from in your own relationships with future in-laws. It doesn't work like that. Your children will go out into the world with their own set of characteristics, flaws, etc, and meet people from different family cultures and characteristics and flaws and they may or may not mesh with yours. You have zero control over that. All we can do as people si try and be kind and decent yes, but also have and demonstrate self-respect and good boundaries and other people will be what they will be.

Who knows, maybe your kids will be thankful they don't have to witness DH's family being snide to their mum. Or having to eat posh food they probably don't even like.
Persisting in these endeavours shows them they need to put up with poor treatment from family.
As other PP said, drop the rope. You have a right to chill too.

I know what you mean OP. You want your children to see how spending time with their grandparents is important and have fun altogether.

You can still achieve that. I think people have given good advice and suggestions for more relationally intelligent things to say your MIL. It takes practice to learn to say "no" and then move the conversation on tactfully without getting drawn into criticism or defensiveness. Say "no we'd rather go to X place with just you this time" aloud several times and you'll find it really unnatural at first. But you'll get there! If it was me I'd probably prefer to do this than ask your husband as by the sounds of it he'd just say "Wife doesn't want her to come Mum" and cause more grief.

I just wouldn’t invite any of them. Every now and then I’d invite pil but only to something really child friendly -so when she said are you inviting sil I’d say no they don’t like sandwiches and hot chips in the park, it’s a pretty children focused plan. Let us know if you can come along.

Your mistake is trying to take this issue on on the basis of the grounds your in laws are working on. Stop making it about the SIL joining. Could you turn it into the needs of your kids, for example? So, MIL, now the kids are older they want more time with you and more attention from you and want to build a stronger relationship with you so we want to focus on time with you and not dilute that.

Do they ever come to see you, or is it you doing all the travelling? I would pull way back. Covid gives an excuse at the moment, presumably. Don't arrange anything at all for a while and see what they do. You're going to be the bad guy in this whatever from the sound of it, so you may as well take the route that spares you the trouble and frustration of arranging outings that end up hijacked.

“Not this time: the kids would love to spend some quality time with their grandparents”

“The kids have missed so much grandparent time, it’s nice to see SIL but another time, hopefully”

OP when you do meet with mil and sil do they treat you nicely or do they do their own thing an dyou are just there so to speak? What exactly are you getting out of this? doesnt seem a lot to me but stress and heartache.If you feel they dislike you then that wont change no matter what you do so that begs the question why are you holding on? Your dh is telling you he is not fussed about them and you are over riding him....step back for your own sanity would be my advice.Seems like they dont care really.If they did and if you an dyour kids were that important they would be invested in doing a lot more leg work to get to gether with you all.Sorry but the only person interested here really and genuinely seems to be you...You shouldnt feel any guilt cos i am sure they dont give it a second thought.Live your life freely not in this forced well you know..

I do it because I am not a hypocrite. When I am older I want to have a good relationship with my sons and DD. I can't expect them to want to know me if I have set the precedent of not cultivating relationships with GP's myself. I certainly do not like a conflict with anyone, or I would have taken the opportunity to cause a rift over this already.

They will see what you do with your parents.

It's for your DH to organise stuff with his parents....especially as they don't seem to care for you much.

It's not about causing conflict. Just stop organising the days out. No arguments, no drama, no fuss and no big statements.

You've done it for so long and your DC will remember this.
If it was important to your DH, he'd do something himself.

When posh restaurant is mentioned “no that’s not what we’re planning this time, this is a child-friendly trip, just a relaxing catch up with grandparents”

Sadly what you are teaching your DC is that it's the woman's job.

You contact MIL who involves SIL.

Neither MIL or FIL contact your DH nor he them?

Yes it would be lovely to foster a warm relationship between DC and GP but MIL is more interested in having SIL there 🤷🏽‍♀️

@TomHardyAndMe

Your husband needs to deal with this.

This. Plan your summer, with the dc. Get them involved, let them choose. Do it all together, as a family. Get them all enthused and looking forward to xyz. Then bat it to your dh, ‘do you want to tell your parents we’ll be in such and such a place to do this, it will be so nice to see them’. Then step back, you’ve done your bit, let it play out. Either:

He knows what happens on these occasions so he ‘forgets’ to tell his parents. Oh well not your problem. You all go and have a nice time anyway.

He tells his parents and sorts arrangements. Because he’s also their child, the weird dynamic whereby they think sil is jealous of you doesn’t rear its head, and they don’t feel the need to include her. You all go and have a nice time.

He tells his parents, they tell sil. Sil turns up and is a wanker. Day spoilt, it’s on your dh. This is a bit of a long game, because it might need to happen a few times. You then instigate a conversation with dh where you chat about how lucky you are to have such family oriented teens and isn’t it great that they want to do stuff all together. This leads into a convo about how the dc didn’t get to do xyz with granny and grandpa after all because you had to go for tea at fucking claridges or whatever at sil’s behest. Present this to him as his problem (because it is). ‘It feels like this always happens, what do you think we should do?’ Then leave it with him. All arrangements with his family are on him. He finds a solution, or he carries on letting his dc get pushed out. But it is very firmly Nothing To Do With You. If he’s a decent dad he won’t want to have his dc pushed out all the time.

Unfortunately a lot of men don’t think these type of things are a problem - until they become their problem. Stop trying to fix this for everyone, i’m sure you have enough to do, and it sounds like you’re doing a bang up job if you have a wide age range of dc who still like to spend time as a family even into the teen years. I wish i could get mine to a bloody castle or market or anything that’s not sodding minecraft/tiktok/making weird shrieking noises on facetime with their friends. You’re doing grand.

Your relationship with your DSs/fictional DILs has nothing to do with this.

They all sound pretty awful tbh, stop inviting the lot of them! They don't appreciate you and actually might show you some respect if you stop letting them treat you like dirt.

No is a complete sentence. If they want to spend time with them, they can organise something. I find it quite rude to expect to invite others to something you have been asked to attend by someone else. Would they do that if someone organised a party?