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Original poster

Relative with 2 surnames

62 replies

UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 22:40

Not a huge problem, but a niggling one I mentioned a while back and have been meaning to raise again, because it's still bothering me.

Brother and his wife are divorced - it happened when their daughter was about 4.

My niece, who has turned out to be an astonishingly normal teenager bearing in mind the mother she had, sports two surnames. There's the official one on her birth certificate - my brother's name, our family name - and the one she uses in life, her mother's. Use of the family name started to be edged out when she was about 7, obviously under her mother's influence as she'd have been too young to take the decision herself. These days she is very diplomatic - both names start with the same letter and she will often just use her first name and initial. (Which is very cool-sounding, especially as she seems to want to go into the music business in some form!)

As I understand it there is no way her name can be officially changed without it being sanctioned by both parents - is this true? Because I don't think my brother would ever consent to having it changed - it would be seen as a final concession to his cow of a wife who has already made things difficult for him in more ways than you can imagine. Maybe he would if his daughter really wanted it, but I'm not sure. And will it cause problems for her in later life, having one name which she "goes by" and another which is the one on her birth certificate (when she comes to apply for jobs, etc.)?

OP posts:
Sobernow · 30/10/2007 22:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 22:46

Can she? That's interesting. She is 16 now. But you can't ever actually alter your birth certificate - can you??

I hope she wouldn't do it because I think it would upset my brother. I know it would upset me in his position. Like erasing dad from your life.

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choosyfloosy · 30/10/2007 22:46

I'm sure someone with more specific knowledge will come along soon. My experience based purely on changing my name twice (two marriages) is that everything is fine provided all your paperwork has the same name on it. The funny business starts when your main official documents (passport, birth cert etc) and what you might call your day-to-day official documents (bank account, utilities, rent book) have different names. 'Going by' a name can happen at any time i believe. don't know about official deed poll or whatever, I'd imagine you have to be at least 16 if not 18.

But I could easily be wrong about two sets of official docs being a problem legally - I do know it would be a lot more awkward administratively. She sounds creative with her solutions. Hope she continues to find a way through this.

Hallowedam · 30/10/2007 22:49

When she's 18 she can call herself whatever she likes anyway... but I think you are right, that a child's surname can't be changed officially without the consent of both parents. However, that doesn't stop the parent with residence using whatever name they prefer in day to day life.

I guess two names may cause a few complications with passports, or if she's ever had up for speeding (hopefully nothing more major!). National Insurance number may be difficult as I think it will just arrive in her formal name.

With CRB checks I think they just ask you to declare all names you have been known by. So I'd take that approach with job applications, too - mention other name after accepting the job and be prepared for NI fuck-ups.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 22:50

Oh yes, she is very diplomatic and very adult about it in some ways.

I've always made a point of sending her Xmas and birthday presents/cards with her "real" name on.

But there are situations - e.g. she is now a "friend" on facebook - where she uses her mother's name, and so that appears on my list of friends now and it kind of feels disloyal to my brother not to have her listed under the family name. Illogical I know, as there is nothing I can do about it.

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Hallowedam · 30/10/2007 22:50

You don't need a deed poll, either, you can just call yourself Fotherington-Smythe, or Rainbow peace-lover or whatever. As long as there's no intent to defraud you are completely within your rights.

Hallowedam · 30/10/2007 22:51

Have you ever asked her how she feels about it?

Original poster
UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 22:54

We tend not to mention it, as my avuncular relationship is quite good, I like to think, based on a shared appreciation of loud guitar music and a tacit understanding that we don't talk about all that stuff...! How British...

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Hallowedam · 30/10/2007 22:56

Take her to a gig with some loud guitars, have a few drinks, then broach the topic during a quiet number from that disappointing second albumn?

Elkat · 30/10/2007 22:58

My friend changed her daughter's name by deed poll, without the consent of the child's father. It can be done, but I don't know if their situation was different because they were unmarried. Don't know if this helps at all.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 23:05

edam, I think your solution is the best!!

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Original poster
UnquietDad · 30/10/2007 23:06

elkat, think you are right - if the parents were not married it can be done. My niece's parents were married.

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Hallowedam · 31/10/2007 09:13

I want a review, you know!

BecauseImWereWolfit · 31/10/2007 09:16

TBH I don't think it's anything do with you. I can appreciate how you feel, but it wasn't your marriage and it ended a long time ago!

You sound like you have a good relationship with her, so what difference does it make what name she goes by? She may change it again if she gets married anyway!

Don't mean to sound harsh - just think it's a bit out of perspective.

covenhope · 31/10/2007 09:26

I'm also wondering why it's any of your business?!

As a family we have a double barrelled surname but in day to day life we all use my original surname. The ILs persist in sending stuff to us in DH's original surname. It is very rude.

It is up to your DN ultimately to decide what name she wishes to use. From the way you describe your ex SIL I'm thinking she may have very valid reasons for distancing her DD from her fathers family?

Original poster
UnquietDad · 31/10/2007 10:34

"From the way you describe your ex SIL I'm thinking she may have very valid reasons for distancing her DD from her fathers family?"

And what exactly is that supposed to mean, judgey judgey?

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Original poster
UnquietDad · 31/10/2007 10:36

Let's be honest, lots of you get miffed on here about things which other people might say are "not your business". Everything from people parking in P&T spaces to kids drinking Fruit Shoots in supermarkets. This is about my family and so it's rather more my business than anything like that!!

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duke748 · 31/10/2007 10:39

My parents divorced when I was about 2. My birth certificate shows my father's surname. From when I can remember I have been known by my mother's surname.

My mother had a long term partner when I was a child and took on his surname. I was known by that surname in part so that myself and his children would have the same surname at school.

It was never really a problem for me to be honest. How many 'official' documents does a kid have? The only problem I ever remember was my mother having to explain that I was her daughter when we flew as we had different surnames.

When I was 18 I changed my name by deedpoll to my mother's surname. My birth certificate still shows my surname given at birth. I simply show my change of name deeds to anyone who needs to know why it has changed, but most places seems to ask about a name change in the past 5 years. So it doesn't come up much.

My GCSEs and A Levels were taken before my official name change, but the school just accepted my surname as they had been calling me it for years!

So, don't worry about any adverse effects on your niece of having two surnames.

The only thing that will affect her negatively is your family and her mother's family having a tug of war over something that really doesn't matter. I think you think its just a way of showing who she 'belongs' to and thats not fair.

You obviously don't have a high opinion of her mother, but please do not let her know that. That isn't right. Even if you don't come right out and say it, I am sure she is an intelligent young lady and will pick up on these things.

One last thing - 'I've always made a point of sending her Xmas and birthday presents/cards with her "real" name on.' - I think this is petty and pointless. Sorry to be harsh - but its my opinion!

FunkyGlassSlipupandyouredead · 31/10/2007 10:41

I can understand why you are perturbed (sp) by this. It sounds like your niece is very considerate of all parties concerned. I think you have to see which path she follows.

If you dont have the kind of relationship where you can talk to her about it, can you see what your brother thinks about it? Or would that be too can-of-wormsy?

Original poster
UnquietDad · 31/10/2007 10:45

But why shouldn't I send her Christmas and birthday cards with the real name on? It's her name. I, for one, have never had any official notification that there is any other surname. I and my children - DN's other cousins - may as well not exist as far as DN's mother is concerned.

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ScaremyVile · 31/10/2007 10:45

What name does she use for school?

ScaremyVile · 31/10/2007 10:47

Sorry just re-read OP she uses her mothers.

NotQuiteCockney · 31/10/2007 10:49

I'd send the cards with just the inital, tbh. It sounds more diplomatic.

It sounds like the marriage ended spectacularly badly, and the two sides have never gotten on since. Surely your good relationship with your niece is more important than whatever name she chooses to go by?

An ex of mine had a similarish situation. His dad and mom were estranged, he'd grown up with a stepdad. His birth certificate had one name on it, all his other documents had a second name. The first name still stuck around a bit, but just wasn't really his name. It didn't cause any problems.

ScaremyVile · 31/10/2007 10:49

Well, for a start calling it her 'proper' name is out of order.

Her 'proper name is the name she goes by - her mothers.

Accept that she does not have, or for all you know want, your family name.

Why dont you just go and piss all over her? - you seem so keen on marking your/your family territory.

Original poster
UnquietDad · 31/10/2007 10:59

I'm not liking some of the nasty comments on here.

You have no idea of the story behind the break-up, so it's not fair for people to make judgey comments. I think if one of the mums came on here with a similar story people would automatically side with her and accept what she said, whereas because I'm a man there must be more to it, and my brother must have done something unspeakably bad to cause the divorce. Heaven forbid it could have been the woman who was difficult to live with.

But thank you to those who have made supportive comments and I'll think about some of your ideas.

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