He doesn't see the problem

[Angryandhurt]

I have a situation that's been going on for a few years and yesterday it came to a head. My husband has a female friend and I am very unhappy with it due to certain behaviours from him around this friendship. I must stress that normally I am not an insecure or jealous person and never have been before but something in my gut tells me that this is something different. I do not believe he is cheating on me but after speaking with his business partner when I first felt uneasy about it, found out that they are quite flirty with each other. She works for the business next door so pops into his business. It all started as he was going to change his day off to take our son out with her and her son and as we both used to have the same day off, this would've meant not having a family day together. There were a couple of other instances where he went out of his way to do something for her. I told him I was uncomfortable with him doing that as if I ask him to do something it's normally met with a grumble. They would message each other maybe asking how each other was, he let her park at his business as where she works has no staff parking (space that is needed for his own customers). I told him all of this made me very uneasy and asked him to stop. Thought he had but then found he was deleting messages as he didn't want the "3rd degree", so we argued about it, thought he had listened and then found he had just changed her name in his phone. I'd asked him to take her off social media and then a few months later found he's added her back on, said she had requested him which was a lie - he had actively sought her out to add her. His excuse was as it was all months ago (at that time) so he thought it was ok. I told him he had to choose between his friendship with her and me. He left for the weekend but said it was because "I had changed since the birth of our son" which is a cop out to me. We worked things out and he came back home but the issue of them messaging has come up a few times since and he's never really stopped but the latest was a couple of days ago and I know that he normally deletes the messages between them. He doesn't feel that he has done anything wrong but I feel so disrespected by it. I know he hasn't cheated on me with her but why can he not see why I have a problem with it? I have no problem with any other female friends he has, just this one in particular due to his behaviour towards her. If he's deleting messages, surely he must know it's not on? He says he does it to stop me giving him grief over it but surely the answer is to simply not do it to begin with?

@MizMoonshine

He's cheating.

He might not have put his dick in her yet but he's cheating on you.

Definitely. This.

@Wanderlusto

His treatment of you is not ok either way. But if I were you I would ask her outright (either in person or via phone because messaging gives her tine to confer with him) wtf is going on.

Just approach it in a 'I'm not happy as I found my partner has been deleting messages sent to you. In not sure why my husband is messaging you something he feels is so inappropriate he would have to delete it. So woman to woman, is there something I need to know?'.

That way you are clear that he is married and that you two are still an item (not just 'staying together for the kids' which he may be saying.

Would you really ask her this?

Suppose she goes all innocent and does the head tilt stuff? (innocent).

I'm not sure why I'd ask another woman (whom I'd suspect knows exactly what she's doing being so friendly with my DH) if she wants to tell me what she's doing with my DH? Surely she won't come straight out and say that she's attracted to your DH?!

I am also sure that she knows he is happily married but whatever spin he's putting on his relationship is his words and you really need to speak to him about this.

Or a divorce lawyer.

Theres no harm in asking provided you do it in a calm manner. Yes she might lie but chances are he has been lying to her and she thinks the marriage is dead in the water.

I'd say leave the bastard anyway because he doesnt have respect for you. But I'd still want to hear what she has to say. If nothing else, to give her the heads up he is a lying shit.

It's an affair or an emotional affair. Either way, it is cheating.

OP this book might help you: Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass.

He should also read it. If he pretends that he gives a shit about you, and for his marriage. It contains strategies for avoiding affairs, which he needs to pay close attention to. Because he's either already banging her or very much intends to.

Nobody deletes totally innocent messages "just because you wouldn't like it", that's just a load of crap. The remaining messages are the ones he feels are "safe" to be seen.

Personally I'd be done at this point but if I wanted to give him one final chance, it would be totally cut her off on everything, no exceptions, no car parking space, and she doesn't come into the business. And I'd insist on him calling her right then and there so we could BOTH explain that as much as we don't blame her, I feel the friendship has crossed a boundary and that for the sake of his marriage and children, he won't be continuing the friendship.

I would not listen to any old bollocks about "Nooooo it's embarrassing" or "You'll humiliate her" - tough fucking shit, that's on him and his decision to spend 6 years - 6 fucking years! - taking the piss and eroding the trust that should be a bedrock of marriage. So yeah, he gets to feel embarrassed about that, and also to feel lucky and grateful to be given a last chance to catch himself on.

Even then, in all honesty, I wouldn't trust him further than I could throw him. I'd be expecting him to just get a second phone to carry it on. And I wouldn't want to live like that, so I'd be out, but I know with kids it's a big decision.

I've dropped the DC at inlaws (they're our childcare bubble) and we're having it out tonight. I've just come out for a ciggie (there goes my giving up!) and have told him to have a serious think about what I've said. I asked him what he gets out of this friendship that's worth disrespecting me so much for, the answer is aparently nothing! So I asked him why he hasn't let this friendship go when I've asked him to - he said he doesn't know. I've told him that's not a good enough answer as "I don't know" is the answer you give when you don't want to say what you really feel. I have to say I'm proud of myself - normally I'd be so angry I'm a crying mess but tonight I've held firm and taking no shit and I think my quiet anger is making him worried more than if I was shouting. I've always given her the benefit of the doubt, as much as I think women who go with a married man are not decent, he is the one who has loyalty to me, not her. As it turns out he did tell her a couple of years ago that I wasn't happy with them messaging etc but still she does it, so she is as much of a cunt as him now in my eyes and I've told him so. He's adamant that he wants to make this work and will cut contact. I've told him no uncertain terms that I can and will do it on my own as I won't put up with it again. If I seen even a whiff of contact then that will be it, marriage over.

I know some of you will likely be screaming at the phone that I'm an idiot but I do love my husband and one of our son's is autistic, so I have to be even more careful about making rash decisions. One thing is for definite, he has to work hard to regain my trust and there are no more chances. Thank you to all of you for listening to me, being kind and making me realise I wasn't the one with the problem

Now is not the time to give up the ciggie OP! Maybe tomorrow

I'm so glad you are having it out with him. Damn right you should be proud! He needs to know that you know there something up (even if he won't admit it) and you won't back down, act blissfully unaware or pretend that everything is fine. I do agree 100 % that the "I don't know" is not an answer and he is unfortunately further fuelling all suspicions....if not confirming them.

OP, as I said before, it's easy to tell you what to do from the outside but ultimately it's you that know your own marriage and your circumstances. Not everyone is in a position to move on straight away but please please please for your sake, don't let him push you around. You deserve to be treated with respect!

And as for the woman, she need to be gone immediately and for good. And as PP said, she needs to be gone from everywhere! Business, car park etc. I suggest your OP find some appropriate male friends!

Have another glass of wine 🍷 xx

Good on you op. It's a start at least.

But just bare in mind he is a liar. You only have his word on the other womwn and of course he wants you to think she is a dick. Because if you communicated with her you would find out the lies he had told her about you.

Its textbook cheat to play the women against eachother. Take what he says with a pinch of salt. He probably tells her you are a money hungry cow that wont divorce him or some other shit.

You can only trust a liar to do one thing-lie.

@Angryandhurt, good on you.
LTB isn't always the answer. Hope you have given enough to give his head a wobble.
Don't assume the OW is innocent. She knew he is married.
Gracious of you to not blame her though.

I have been in a similar position, and I knew that the evil shark had gone all out to get the OW, his fault, but she knew he wasn't single.

He left for the OW. She did me a huge favour.

Ah, there you go, making it all about me again.

Hugs.

I think an opportunity was lost years ago when you gave him the her or me speech and he came back, you worked it out and he was still messaging her.

What happens if that happens again.

All the best op, but this could just drive the messages underground, eg when he goes to toilet, for a walk ect

[quote KirstenBlest]@Angryandhurt, good on you.
LTB isn't always the answer. Hope you have given enough to give his head a wobble.
Don't assume the OW is innocent. She knew he is married.
Gracious of you to not blame her though.

I have been in a similar position, and I knew that the evil shark had gone all out to get the OW, his fault, but she knew he wasn't single.[/quote]
I'm so sorry this has happened to you!!

I genuinely do not understand why some women get the kick out of chasing / entertaining married men! As women, we should know better than anyone how it would feel being on the receiving end of it all. I get that inevitably some relationships do break down but fgs, do the decent thing and walk away BEFORE you disrespect your spouse! Why is it sooooi hard?

Well done.

Just make sure that if he gets back in contact with you that you immediately end the relationship and file for divorce. No ifs, no buts, no discussion about it.

He's taken the piss and tbh I think he's likely to cool off with her for a bit then take up again behind your back. He either likes the ego massage or he's fantasising about her.

Good luck.

God! If he gets back in contact with her. Sorry.

@PearsandPartridge definitely no pushing around will be allowed I've told him all contact is to be cut and I'll know if it hasn't and that will be it. There's no more chances now. I deserve better.

@Wanderlusto yeah, I'm not 100% sure that I believe that he told her I wasn't happy about their friendship. Unless she really has no morales, I can't think why she would still message someone knowing his wife is unhappy about it.

@KirstenBlest I'm sorry you had to go through that. Ugh some people are just arseholes

@Bythemillpond

I think an opportunity was lost years ago when you gave him the her or me speech and he came back, you worked it out and he was still messaging her.

What happens if that happens again.

If it happens again then that's it. Our marriage will be over. I've told him I put it to an anon forum and the overwhelming opinion is that he is having an emotional affair, if not a physical one. I think labelling it as such has made him realise exactly what he has done to me. I will not have this conversation with him again, it will just be that he is gone.

Good luck op, and well done for setting your boundaries.
Although I wouldn't rely on the ow to adhere to anything, some women are so brazen.

Know your worth, don't let him pull the wool over your eyes and don't take any crap, you've been through enough.
No arguing the toss about your demands.
Take care

complete disclosure from him OP... no deleting messages etc... good luck lady 🌺

You keep going around with this. No matter what you say and do, he stays in contact with her. This time will be no different. He's gone to ridiculous lengths to keep her in his life.

I don't know why you believe he hasn't cheated on you physically, but I would be extremely doubtful he hasn't.

He's certainly having an emotional affair with her and has been for years.

@category12

You keep going around with this. No matter what you say and do, he stays in contact with her. This time will be no different. He's gone to ridiculous lengths to keep her in his life.

I don't know why you believe he hasn't cheated on you physically, but I would be extremely doubtful he hasn't.

He's certainly having an emotional affair with her and has been for years.

I do believe he hasn't physically cheated - if he isn't at home he's at work, he isn't one for the pub. He goes to his hobby events with his friends but they're mainly mutual friends and I think they would tell me - they're decent blokes and I don't think they would facilitate it. His business partner is one of our best friends who is also married to my best friend. I've not doubt he would tell him if he had and there's absolutely no way business partner wouldn't tell his wife and she 100% would tell me.

Something shifted in me yesterday and he knows it. I think seeing so many replies confirming that I'm not over reacting, this IS an emotional affair and I have every right to feel as angry as I am, gave me the confidence to be firm. I didn't break down in an emotional angry mess that he doesn't believe because he thinks I've said it just because I'm emotional. I will walk if I even get so much as a whiff of contact or feel he's lied to me - that much I am certain on and so is he.

@Hawkins001 I won't lie, that is something that's in the back of my head but he knows I'll find out (I always do) and as much as I don't want to be that person, I'll ask for access to his online mobile account for itemised bill if I feel I need to. He knows beyond doubt now that if he does, our marriage is over and it'll be his fault

Sorry, I think you're deluding yourself. Men do often cover up for each other when it comes to this stuff, and opportunity and risk-taking is the name of the game when it comes to having an affair. Work colleagues were using the roof space and disabled loos at work for theirs.

And there are plenty of threads on here where someone knows about someone's affair and the vast majority of people advise not telling the wife, as if it's the telling that's the offence and what will break up the marriage, and not the infidelity. "Everyone knew but me" is not uncommon and such a betrayal on top.

@category12 is spot on. Even the loveliest most moral of men will often keep quiet when they know something is going on. They may even tell their own wives, who also in turn keep quiet because there's the tendency to think that one shouldn't get involved in other people's marriages.
This thread is a good example of how things can get out of hand when uneasy feelings aren't addressed immediately. We as women are so worried about coming across as neurotic and we all are expected to be cool wives whose husbands can of course have female friends. Glad that you listened to your gut feelings, OP.

I hear what you're saying, maybe I shouldn't count on the friends but my best friend absolutely would tell me if she knew and if she found out her husband knew and didn't tell her, she would rip him a new one .
I don't quite know how to explain it but we both know something has changed now. Maybe because I've called it what it is - an emotional affair. I told him for 6 years, he's gaslit me over this and made me question whether I was the one over reacting, to deflect from the fact he knew full wellhe was in the wrong. If you feel the need to delete messages, you're doing something wrong. He said there is no choice as it's our marriage he wants and he will cut all contact, so he has a hell of a lot to do to earn my trust back. I'm nobodies fool though, I will find out if anything more happens and then I shall walk away with my head held high as I know I've done what I could.

I wouldn't put up with this shit for 6 days, let alone 6 years. But then again my first husband cheated on me many times, so my tolerance for this kind of bullshit is zero.

Funny that he isn't swapping his days off to have a day out with Mike the hairy mechanic, eh? Funny how he isn't messaging Fat Dave and then deleting the texts? Funny how he doesn't go out of his way to take Steve's kid to nursery?

Yeah, very fucking funny indeed.

In your shoes, I would tell him it's over. Even if you're only bluffing. And I'd go so far as to make him move out. Let him see whether that makes reality hit. I wonder how he would feel if you were doing this shit with another man?