Watched Normal People. Realised "healthy relationships" as described by the stringent standards of Mumsnet are unrealistic and rare as hens teeth.

[ChippyPickledEggs]

It's a clunky title. But my point is that Mumsnet would have told Marianne that Connell had absolutely no respect for her and that she'd to pick her self respect up from the floor and LTB immediately, multiple times.

And it just made me think that the standards for relationships insisted upon here are unrealistic and bear little resemblance to how things tend to go in real life. I'm not talking about red lines like domestic abuse. But about humans being messy and scared and sometimes selfish.

Of all the long term relationships I know, there isn't a single one would be described as equal and healthy on mumsnet. Not one. There's always something: men not doing their share is a common one, or one partner who can drink too much and be a bit flirtatious perhaps. A mismatch in investment I see being very common, even in decades long relationships: a kisser and a kissee as my friend would put it. And at the beginning of relationships as well - things are often not that smooth sailing.

Thoughts?

Totally agree with Angrymum22 re longevity of relationships. My Aunt and Uncle celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary the year before they both died. I doubt there will be many doing similar in years to come.

I can’t help but notice a lot of people and particularly those who struggle financially seem to go for really melodramatic Eastenders style lives.

My god, those proles eh. Don't know how to behave, do they?

Well, I'm one of those ghastly poor people - live on a council estate and work a low paid job. But I live in a generally quite well to do area and the majority of my friends are solidly middle class and perfectly comfortable. I personally have not noticed any difference in relationship quality between the classes, although I do sense a greater interest in maintaining that veneer of respectability among my wealthier friends. There is just as much domestic abuse, although you wouldn't know it unless you were close. Emotional abuse, refusal to take on fair share of domestic responsibilities, and financial abuse are rife. Especially in families where the man has a Very Important Job.

A fair few of my friends (we're of the age where kids are now teenagers and/or starting to leave home) are now saying fuck it. The kids have gone and now I'm out too.

Normal People did not depict a healthy relationship!

Important and necessary in shaping the characters - yes. Like any over-dramatic youthful on-off relationship we've had. Even like toxic relationships we've extricated ourselves from. But it wasn't anything to aspire to.

The main thing I noticed about these relationships was that the women didn’t go into them hoping the bloke would change. They didn’t expect their DP to be lazy and not contribute equally to the household and childcare. They started their relationships as they meant it to continue and had basic expectations of their DP’s. They’ve also all got healthy relationship role models through their families. And fathers who are loving and warm and parent equally and treat their wives with love and respect.

I agree with this.
And I agree with your lats post OP, I think there are a lot of unhappy women who started off thinking it was all equal, then the man was doing the Very Important Job while she was working parttime/SAHP and brining up kids, and her needs became secondary to keeping the family happy. Keeping up the veneer rather than risk everything in leaving.

But I must say again, I know plenty of good happy marriages. I find the idea that most of the people you know are in relationships that are basically poor, really sad.

Maybe becase many of my friends and family married later? we were older and less likely to put up with rubbish? Maybe because we had good role models? Maybe because we fundamentally have decent sefl esteem and don't think being married at any cost is better than being single? I don't know

I haven’t seen normal people so I don’t know about that but I don’t think asking for a partner who does half of the necessary housework, doesn’t act like a dick and is generally nice to you is unreasonable

I rarely disagree with any ltb on here though and say it myself a lot

Women should have high standards for relationships and not put up with low level shit from substandard men

No, Gannett it did not depict a healthy relationship. They communicated extremely poorly and there were times Connell treated Marianne very badly indeed (and she was not always perfectly behaved either.) But he did ultimately love and respect her. And he was always "into her." Mumsnet would have told Marianne he did not care, which would not have been true - not at any point in their relationship.

I also don't accept that Connell was just "a shit." He behaved badly at times. But he was just a kid and a coward and a bit repressed, and caved under peer pressure (as we all may have done at some point in our lives.) I think his behaviour was ultimately forgiveable.

I just find such an unwillingness to look at the shades of grey on Mumsnet. People are either good or bad, relationships are healthy or toxic. And actually most people and relationships fall somewhere in between.

Several of my female friends have married / have a relationship that would pass the MN test - yes they argue and get cross with each other occasionally and it is not perfect, yet after over 15 years of being together, I know that they are a team and they love each other and treat each other well. None of the partners/husbands flirt with other women, use the family money in themselves, leave their partners to do all the housework/childcare. It warms my heart to know these kind of relationships exist, even though I never managed this for myself.
Agree with the posters who say it is about the expectations that you have of a relationship. My friends have different incomes but I think they all had roughly the same expectations of being treated well. I grew up in an abusive house and had very low expectations of anyone ever being good to me - probably why I chose the relationships and why I stayed in them so long.
So I think the mumsnet standards are really good to open women’s eyes - no you don’t have to accept this kind of behaviour, you deserve better and once you start believing you deserve better then you can change things. I think some/many? women are conditioned into thinking it is their fault and that is why they put up with terrible relationships.

@ChippyPickledEggs

No, Gannett it did not depict a healthy relationship. They communicated extremely poorly and there were times Connell treated Marianne very badly indeed (and she was not always perfectly behaved either.) But he did ultimately love and respect her. And he was always "into her." Mumsnet would have told Marianne he did not care, which would not have been true - not at any point in their relationship.

I also don't accept that Connell was just "a shit." He behaved badly at times. But he was just a kid and a coward and a bit repressed, and caved under peer pressure (as we all may have done at some point in our lives.) I think his behaviour was ultimately forgiveable.

I just find such an unwillingness to look at the shades of grey on Mumsnet. People are either good or bad, relationships are healthy or toxic. And actually most people and relationships fall somewhere in between.

Do you really don't understand that "caring" sometimes is not enough? That no matter how much you love someone if you hurt them,if you don't respect them ,their needs ,their boundaries, if someone else/yourself always comes first, that love is irrelevant. It's not enough to maintain a relationship,much less a good/beneficial relationship.

Let's say I have a cat . I love her to bits,she's the best thing ever and I love cuddling and playing with her.

But you know, i never got insurance, she's never been to the vet,or worm or flea treated. I lock her out at night because it's more convenient for me.

Am I a good cat owner? Am I even a decent one? And that's a pet we're talking about.

Good relationships take work and effort, not just frikking declarations of undying love.

Such an interesting thread ...my marriage (been together 23 years) would not be approved by Mumsnet if I divulged how my husband has behaved but, on trying to communicate with him, I feel he has very limited understanding and awareness so it is difficult to reach a satisfactory outcome. The bad behaviour involves some minor physical abuse towards me and our children (only happens once every 2-3 years when he can’t obviously contain his anger).

I have had to change my thinking to accepting him how he is for the sake of keeping the family together and the comfortable lifestyle I have. Relationships are hard. My husband does not see that he has done wrong (he’s behaving as his father did towards him)...I could have easily have used this as a reason for leaving him but I want to show solidarity and totally believe in the sanctuary of married life. What would I do if I wanted to end the relationship ? Live a lonely life in a flat trying to share our teenage children? Show an example to my two children that if something isn’t right, you get up and go?

I have had to work hard at looking at what my husband does well: he’s loyal, hardworking and I have always felt loved and cared for by him 😊

I have had to work hard at looking at what my husband does well: he’s loyal, hardworking and I have always felt loved and cared for by him 😊

Except every two /three years when he's abusive to you and your kids! Bet you feel really loved and cared for then.

Dream goals! Living your best life!

Fuck me..

Marianne and Connell would have been fine if they'd have just communicated rather than stomping off like the dramatic 20year olds they were

Imo the writer was very young herself writing those books so perhaps not as wise as the women on this board.

But in the end they both feel that the relationship has made them into better people, and that they are the love of eachothers lives (obviously they are still very young.) Ultimately the relationship was an enriching experience for them both.

Just because they felt that at the end it doesn't mean that it's true, it also doesn't mean that it's the end of the journey into better people...or that it genuinely enriched their lives.

Normal people is an awful example of a love story!
Marianne clearly has a lot of issues and it is extremely likely that Connell contributed to that and that Marianne just hasn't got to that point in her healing to realise that.
It is possible that Connells treatment of her after sex, ignoring her and cementing the idea in her head that she was worthless and he was right to to be embarrassed by her led to her trying to recreate that feeling in her later sexual relationships which is why she sought out the type of sex that she did.

Connell never seemed to reflect properly on just how much damage he potentially caused to a girl who already felt worthless. There was never a moment where he showed understanding for that and how it may have actually created a trauma bond or that there were deep issues that would need to be worked on.

my point is that Mumsnet would have told Marianne that Connell had absolutely no respect for her and that she'd to pick her self respect up from the floor and LTB immediately, multiple times.

.....

mumsnet would not have been right - that's the point. I'm not saying aspects of his behaviour weren't poor at times, but he did love and respect her ultimately.

No! Mumsnet would have been right. The relationship wasn't even anything remotely resembling a healthy relationship by the end of the show. They were also still very young so just because they felt like they were good for each other, that didn't mean that it was true. Reflecting on it years or decades later Marianne could realise just how much trauma it caused her. Many young people in toxic relationships believe the relationship is good for them!

I'm baffled that you think that they had a healthier, more equal relationship than couples on here who might have issues about one person not doing their share of housework!

I'm baffled that you think that they had a healthier, more equal relationship than couples on here who might have issues about one person not doing their share of housework!

I don't think that.

But you said that mumsnetters would have been wrong to tell her to LTB because ultimately he loved and respected her!
He was a selfish coward who never appeared to ever have had a real grasp on how badly he had treated her! Their problems were far far worse than problems that are often talked about on here!

Well mumsnet would be right about Marianne and Connell wouldn't it?

That is not a healthy relationship. But also they are teens, so not lifelong partners...

I don't agree with you overall. Yes, you do get some trigger LTB responses, but many are much more thoughtful. I think the problem is much less with Mumsnet than society - many relationships are unhealthy and unequal because we haven't got used to seeing marriage (or de facto marriage) as what it is - a life partnership. A partnership means contributions from both sides, but in reality it all too often doesn't work like that, because of centuries of condition, and a society that hasn't adapted to social change.

In fact I do know quite a few healthy marriages - usually because the female half picked well in the first place, they have mutual respect, good communication - and she has resisted taking on all the family admin.

I know some not healthy ones too...

Just today I've seen on here that not being happy is not a reason for divorce , that not abusive/alcohol/cheating is the standard for a "good" man and that refusing sex is creating "unnecessary tension in the relationship " and don't be surprised if he cheats. Not to mention the example on this thread that he's only abusive 2/3 times a year.

But sure, MN standards are too "high".

Clearly this board is nothing like real life. Isolated incidents in long term relationships are jumped all over.

It's very biased in its basic assumptions and full of contradiction.

@Wibble01

Clearly this board is nothing like real life. Isolated incidents in long term relationships are jumped all over.

It's very biased in its basic assumptions and full of contradiction.

It’s never an isolated incident once in a fifty year relationship.

I hope I’ve raised my DD’s to walk away the second they’re treated anything less than an equal.

It’s a good life lesson to live by; do not become financially dependant on anyone, don’t start off being the house elf when you move in together as that will be your role forever, don’t put your needs and wants last as that will be where you will stay forever.
If a man shows you who he is by refusing to treat you like his partner and equal than sit up and pay attention. He’s showing you how he will treat you throughout your relationship.

And nobody needs to remain in a relationship that doesn’t make them happy.

Just today I've seen on here that not being happy is not a reason for divorce , that not abusive/alcohol/cheating is the standard for a "good" man and that refusing sex is creating "unnecessary tension in the relationship " and don't be surprised if he cheats. Not to mention the example on this thread that he's only abusive 2/3 times a year.

But sure, MN standards are too "high".

I don't think any of this advice would be the MN norm would it.

And I don't necessarily think more typical MN standards are too high. I think they're good standards. I just think the vast majority of relationships don't live up to them and that it's unrealistic to expect that they will. By all means have those standards. But with them needs to come an acceptance that a vast majority of men will disappoint you. That's my opinion, I can see not everyone agrees.

For the people who know plenty of relationships that live up to these standards, I wonder what kind of different worlds we are living in? Because I'd like to cross over into yours. Perhaps it's a matter of perspective? Perhaps some people I know would claim to be in a relationship that lived up to those standards and by my own observations I would disagree.

I think women don't expect enough.

I split with the father of my two children the day before Christmas Eve, when it turned out that he couldn't even be bothered to keep evidence of his infidelity out of our shared google photos.

I could have talked about it with him, let him 'make it up to me' but funnily enough, he couldn't actually be bothered to do that after the first tears in his eyes realisation I wasn't joking when I said it was over (after 15 years).

I've spent 10 years with my career on the back-burner, but thank god keeping my hand in so I can walk out tomorrow and get a job (I did 5 years ago, until he said that he wasn't going to take on any pickups or drop offs, and I had to reject the offers). Being able to do that gives me immense freedom to tell him to get knotted that a lot of women just don't have, and I think it's a bit of a shock to him (not as much of a shock as being responsible for all his bills and communication with his relatives will be). The most damning thing to my mind is the kids haven't even noticed.

And to add a bit of personal flavour to this thread, I chose single motherhood over an unfulfilling relationship with a man who was low level controlling/emotionally abusive. I did leave. I could have stayed. It was the kind of emotional abuse that a lot of women don't even really recognise as such and pass off as their partner just being a bit of a shit. My relationship would not have been any worse than many of the relationships I see around me. Probably. But I decided I'd be happier on my own and I've never regretted that decision.

I haven't had a serious relationship since. Can't find anyone even half way decent.

Ah Skylight cross posted. I'm sorry. That's a shit thing to go through over Christmas (or at any time.) Thank christ, like you said, you kept your hand in workwise.

You're going to be happier without him.

@Councilworker

The fact that Connell considered Marianne a secret and wouldn't publicly acknowledge her would have been a warning flag in a real life relationship. Mumsnet would have asked her to think about why she considered herself so unworthy of basic human respect and suggested therapy. And they would have been right. She learned fucked up relationships from her family and it damaged her.

Nailed it.

You're going to be happier without him.

Fuck yes. As time goes by I keep having these 'oh GOD OF COURSE' moments.

I mean, I'm still crying when I dwell on it, but that's shock I think. The rest of me is angry and disappointed that he's such a pathetic coward. In many ways, him being so lazy makes it easy - blocking him so I don't have to think about it isn't a problem when I know that he just can't be bothered to spend time with the kids anyhow!

And my kids are fantastic (and largely all my own work ) so yeah. Fuck him.

(but thanks - and it's good to hear from other women who enforced their standards when they should have like you did, rather than sit lonely for years until it came to a head)