Watched Normal People. Realised "healthy relationships" as described by the stringent standards of Mumsnet are unrealistic and rare as hens teeth.

[ChippyPickledEggs]

It's a clunky title. But my point is that Mumsnet would have told Marianne that Connell had absolutely no respect for her and that she'd to pick her self respect up from the floor and LTB immediately, multiple times.

And it just made me think that the standards for relationships insisted upon here are unrealistic and bear little resemblance to how things tend to go in real life. I'm not talking about red lines like domestic abuse. But about humans being messy and scared and sometimes selfish.

Of all the long term relationships I know, there isn't a single one would be described as equal and healthy on mumsnet. Not one. There's always something: men not doing their share is a common one, or one partner who can drink too much and be a bit flirtatious perhaps. A mismatch in investment I see being very common, even in decades long relationships: a kisser and a kissee as my friend would put it. And at the beginning of relationships as well - things are often not that smooth sailing.

Thoughts?

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings I mean I like what you've written, and in theory I agree. If women could collectively refuse relationships with men unless the relationship was truly equal and respectful then men would have no choice but to change. That's true.

But trying to visualise this feels a bit like singing John Lennon's Imagine on a loop. Incidentally he was a domestic abuser too.

The thing is most women are posting because they are deeply unhappy .

What should they be told then? Suck it up love, my friend's relationship is just as shitty as yours. Be grateful you have a man.

What I am baffled at is how low some women's standards are when it comes to men, which would be totally fair enough if they kept it to themselves. Most of the time though they're berating other women for not putting up with the same shit as them, or worse daring to complain because their partner is slightly less shit.

Relationships should never be a race to the bottom.

I think there are a lot of mumsnetters who will jump straight to ‘LTB’ for something really quite minor in the context of the whole relationship. But there is a whole lot to explore between putting up with certain faults and LTB. Eg trying different ways of communicating, various relationship Apps etc. Also it’s easy to advise someone else but it’s not your own relationship you’re ending!

When I read the relationship board, what you often see is LTB, which seems really unreasonable, and people get upset by it.

Then the OP gives more info and the LTB doesn't seem so unreasonable, then the OP posts again, and suddenly LTB seems entirely reasonable.
Not always obviously, but more times than not.

The people posting LTB are often able to see the red flags more quickly having been there themselves.

It really is depressing how many women put up with crap. There are planty of good men around. I know many, and some are single. So much is about the low standard we set, sadly

My parents have a healthy 40+ year marriage. They are both "equals" so to speak, genuinely love each other, are equal intellectually, best friends and generally prefer each other's company to anyone else's. Infidelity has never even been discussed as a possibility let alone ever appeared. They are in their late 60's, both look great for their age, both love keeping fit together and spend evenings watching films with some single malt.

Not saying they don't fight, but as marriages go they really are the benchmark for me.

@Sacredspace

I think there are a lot of mumsnetters who will jump straight to ‘LTB’ for something really quite minor in the context of the whole relationship. But there is a whole lot to explore between putting up with certain faults and LTB. Eg trying different ways of communicating, various relationship Apps etc. Also it’s easy to advise someone else but it’s not your own relationship you’re ending!

Depends on the faults doesn't it? If the faults are abusive,controlling,demanding sex etc. Then they're definitely a case for LTB.

Also, what's very common in a relationship thread is that OP might complain about a small things and as more questions are answered the small things are just the tip of the ice berg. There's a reason why the most common question is "does he have form for this"?

A one off in a normal,healthy,respectful and loving relationship is something you can normally work through. A pattern of behaviour,not so much especially if that behaviour is harmful to OP , mentally,physically,emotionally or financially.

There are women who will put up with any garbage rather than have no man at all in their lives. They post on here, day in and day out. They put up with drink or drug addicts, lazy, refusing to do housework or childcare, cocklodgers, cheaters, financial abusers, emotional abusers, often getting pregnant 'accidentally' with each piece of scum.

There are women who post on here who thought they were in a good and happy relationship/ marriage with a good man for many years, until the day the scumbag tells her he needs space, is leaving (scumbag talk for having found another woman).

What we don't hear much about are relationships where its a true partnership, he is an adult who takes on responsibility for his fair share, both communicate well and live happy lives. I disagree that these are unrealistic and rare. I've had relationships like this myself, I know people who are in relationships like this for 20+ years and more.
What's unrealistic about expecting to be loved and respected by an adult man who wants a real partnership as opposed to a second mummy?

It's pointless saying ltb to the first group because they will simply replace him with another piece of scum.

It's right to say ltb to the middle group because even if she can forgive, she will never forget and it will eat away at her until she finally kicks him out or he cheats again.

Obviously no need for ltb for 3rd group.

And of course Connell wouldn’t even be at Trinity doing English if she hadn’t made him think of it as possible, he’d have been with his friends in Galway, being the same person he always was — she transforms him far more than he transforms her.

I've not read the book or watched the series, admittedly, but this strikes me as pandering to the usual "woman is attracted to a bad man but manages to change him into someone better" fantasy. If so, not sure how healthy that is. How many times has somene entered a toxic relationship n the basis they thought they could "save" someone?

Who knows what is actually the truth on an anonymous forum. I do agree with the poster who suspects that the most vocal MNetters are both single and have very little experience of a truly long term relationship, perhaps because of their exacting and unwieldy standards. I’m quite sad that many posters consider 10 years a long term relationship. I suppose we judge longevity in terms of those around us.
I have been with DH for nearly 30 years. I was well aware that it would get tough at times, that we would have to support each other through thick and thin. Neither of us is perfect and by no means do we have the perfect marriage. What we do have is a deep understanding of each other and still communicate however uncomfortable the subject.
Long term relationships are about compromise, I often watch Kisty and Phil (the house buying gurus) and think what good marriage counsellors they would make. The perfect man does not exist, it’s the flaws that make life so much more interesting.

I’m quite sad that many posters consider 10 years a long term relationship. I suppose we judge longevity in terms of those around us.

Or it depends on the age of the poster.

I'm 35, a 30 year old relationship is not "reality" to me yes. Whereas my 13 year old one does feel long term and stable. I mean he might die tomorrow, does that mean I wasn't in a long term relationship?

I don't think that your list is some impossible dream - a partnership includes mutual respect, understanding, a continual seeking out of ways to make the other person happy, etc. It shouldn't be a ridiculous high standard, it should be the bog-standard basics of a solid relationship.

I didn't find that until I was 38, however.

Relationships should never be a race to the bottom.

Except in an anal swingers club of course.

Sorry.

As long as we keep telling ourselves and each other that especting basic acts of kindness, respect, and love in relationships is some kind of impossible dream, thats what we're going to keep getting. It doesn't need to be that way.As long as we keep telling ourselves and each other that especting basic acts of kindness, respect, and love in relationships is some kind of impossible dream, thats what we're going to keep getting. It doesn't need to be that way.

I don't know about telling myself that, but it's certainly been my experience.

I want to live in a world where that's the minimum most women can expect from a relationship, and the only way that's going to happen is if we all collectively refuse to accept less

I wholeheartedly agree with this but then the whole marriage and kids bag for a lot of people is what they aspire to and spend their lives working towards, which makes any old shit far more likely to pass for acceptable.

No fucking thank you.

A good chunk of my friends have good healthy relationships that would pass the MN standards.

The main thing I noticed about these relationships was that the women didn’t go into them hoping the bloke would change. They didn’t expect their DP to be lazy and not contribute equally to the household and childcare. They started their relationships as they meant it to continue and had basic expectations of their DP’s. They’ve also all got healthy relationship role models through their families. And fathers who are loving and warm and parent equally and treat their wives with love and respect.

I’m now in a relationship that would pass MN approval.
I reckon tho if DH behaved badly his mum and sisters would take him down a peg or two quicker than I would. He’s expected to be a decent human being as a matter of course.

I think it’s the opposite actually. Women are expected to have very low standards when looking for relationships.

And sometimes I can’t help thinking posters beat down women looking for help because their own partners are really horrible, and they feel that as they put up with it others should too. It’s weirdly validating for them.

I personally think expecting a partner to be a partner should be the very basic that one looks for in a relationship. And never mind being greatful that he isn’t abusive or something extreme like that.

I bet men don’t think, better stay married to this one, at least she doesn’t beat me up so she must be a good one.

I’ve had 4-5 long-term relationships, including a marriage with children, and I’ve never been treated any less than extremely well. That is the bare minimum requirement to be in a relationship with me.

People aren’t perfect, I’m not perfect. But with all my flaws, I still manage to treat my loved ones well. It’s really not that difficult.

If you think the relationship in NP was ultimately a good one because they decided they loved each other, you have a lot of issues you need to unpick. He treated her terribly, and that does irreversible damage.

I agree OP.

DH and I have worked through many issues that wouldn't have passed MN standards, but we are stronger because of it

I have almost an exact opposite reaction... mumsnet has made me realise how many people are in crap relationships and it's shocking to read.

That you think relationships where the man doesn't do his fair share, drinks too much, or is 'a bit flirtatious perhaps' 🤔 are normal is incredibly sad.

I can promise you that not all people live like that. I am in a healthy and equal relationship, as are many of my friends and family (though of course some have settled for less).

@ChippyPickledEggs

AsCoolAsKimDeal mumsnet would not have been right - that's the point. I'm not saying aspects of his behaviour weren't poor at times, but he did love and respect her ultimately.

MN would absolutely have been right He respected her ultimately but not for god knows how many years. He absolutely added to her poor sense of self worth by hiding their relationship and then messing her around.

He was a shit.

He respected her ultimately but not for god knows how many years. He absolutely added to her poor sense of self worth by hiding their relationship and then messing her around.

There's this really stupid myth, still fucking going round through the ages that love (even fucked up,toxic,damaging) should be enough.

"Aww but he loves/loved her really"

Even decent love is sometimes not enough, much less this fucked up "Beauty and the Beast" syndrome.

I think MN has massively improved my marriage.

The first few times I read threads in Relationships I found myself holding back on my instinctive replies and slowly discovering that a lot of what I’d learned about relationships wasn’t normal or healthy. I wanted to express solidarity with women with controlling, micromanaging men in their lives, or give helpful advice on how to soothe a husbands ruffled feathers and bruised ego. I had learned lots growing up about what it takes to make a marriage work

MN taught me to expect more, respect myself and not tolerate shit. Fortunately for me, I had managed to marry a really decent dh, but I was actually creating problems because of some of the baggage I brought with me. Just changing my own attitude was enough to pull dh along with me because he’s a fundamentally decent man.

We don’t have a perfectly calm, zen like marriage but we can talk and listen and compromise. There’s a bedrock of respect there. But I was bringing some poor expectations from my upbringing into our marriage and I had to learn that it’s as important to respect yourself as respect your partner.

And I will absolutely be teaching my dd to keep her standards high - that being failed by a man, doesn’t make you a failure and there’s no shame in walking away from a bad situation.

And I am doing my utmost to instill some marriage-sustaining values and habits in my ds.

I can’t help but notice a lot of people and particularly those who struggle financially seem to go for really melodramatic Eastenders style lives. The number of couples like this I’ve seen in town making big scenes or having huge loud fuck you type conversations — I think some of them get a buzz from this kind of constant drama— personally I would be embarrassed.

My shit marriage which looked amazing from the outside, if I'd been honest on MN and described my everyday reality I would have been told to LTB - and MNs would be right.

My current fairly new relationship is being built on entirely different foundations, I've learnt a lot from the relationship boards and have learnt to put my happiness at the forefront for once. My current happy and healthy relationship would pass MN standards and I'm very happy with that.

One issue which another poster touched on is men are often rewarded for their shitty behaviour so they'll have little desire to change (you could argue they're even encouraged to be shitty).