Are there any decent men out there?

[Choccaholic]

In my 20s I had a very turbulent at times relationship, now I've entered my 30s I miss the high points in that relationship and being so young and carefree.

My big question is at 31, every man in his 30s is single for a BIG reason! From reading posts on here every man seems like a narcissist, controlling abusive, manipulative liar!

As a single parent at 30 I feel like my standards are very very high (maybe even too high) BUT I am not willing to settle.

Can you actually meet a man in his 30s who is single through no fault of his own and is actually a decent human being?

@notafanoftheman

My husband is amazing. He was still on the market because he's five foot five.

Exactly women just as fickle as men!

@user1471565182

Yeah I think what a lot of people forget about being gay is that your choice is already naturally massively limited.

How is it any more limited than if your straight? There's approximately the same number of women as men.

This has been a very sad read.

I find it surprising that men on here seem to be so offended by the suggestion that so many women deal with abusive men. Come on? Theirs statistics out there for that sort of thing and it’s pretty clear cut on sexual violence. And sexual violence takes place mostly with people you trust.

It must be really crappy being a decent man and hearing ‘men are shit’ all the time. I get it. I too have a wonderful (not perfect) dad and brother but they have to put up with my feminist rantings and I’m glad that they are open to listening to it.

As a white person - I completely accept my privilege and no doubt learnt racism and I am totally open to learning. So whilst it’s crap to hear that you might have work to do, I really really don’t understand the defensiveness.

I imagine I will be single in the near future. I’m 30 and have young kids. So not a prize, apparently. To be honest I don’t want another man to add to my list of things ‘to do’ but it would be nice to know that I wouldn’t be single forever. Maybe I will if it really is that bad out there!!!

Are there the same amount of gay people as straight?

Can you actually meet a man in his 30s who is single through no fault of his own and is actually a decent human being?

Yes. I did.

Seriously, don’t judge society by what you read on mumsnet.

This is excellent advice!

I met my DH in my 30s and his reasons for being single were no less legitimate than mine.

Same.

I didn't expect so many replies to my post. I do agree this has made for quite a depressing read!
I do think that from this forum it seems that if your of a certain age and have children your less dateable! But I think everyone is overlooking the other great qualities in a person which make them much more desirable.

I dont want to sound big headed here and I'm really not but I get told by people all the time that I am very attractive and people feel a little intimidated by this (I don't understand this in the slightest!).

So, I do think (even though some of you say it's reality) that women in their 30s with children should not have a harder time in the dating world.

I have felt quite rubbish reading these messages, and it's made me question whether leaving my ex 2 years ago (father to my child) was a mistake. He was very emotionally abusive but I feel all the other qualities he had make him look like prince charming next to all these descriptions of men.

@Choccaholic if he was emotionally abusive then it certainly wasn't the wrong decision to leave him!

Keep your standards high when dating. Inevitably as you have children your pool of potential partners will be smaller everything else being equal but that's ok - you're not looking to attract someone who sees your children as being a disadvantage in dating you.

Yes - my brother only met his fiancée in his late thirties and she had two kids. They’re wonderful together.

But, as others have alluded, I think it depends on what exactly your “high standards” are. If they’re to find someone who’s kind, respectful, who takes responsibility for his own crap, who will be there for you and work as a team with you, who shares mutual interests and/or outlook on life then more power to you. You shouldn’t settle for any less.

However, if it includes things like being tall, or handsome or a high earner or, as - I kid you not - I saw on one lady’s dating profile, shaved headed (absolute dealbreaker apparently) then you might be finding your adding what some would consider unnecessary hurdles.

One other thing I’ve noted from experience - those who ask for “cheeky smiles” or “cheeky eyes” will usually put off a lot of decent guys. There’s undoubtedly exceptions but by-and-large those who present themselves as roguish stand a higher chance of being, well, rogues.

There is pure luck and then there is the unpalatable part of dating and that’s how do we shape up as individuals just as much as how do they shape up. I obviously know single people as well as those in long relationships. I have met both men and women who it’s obvious why they are single but they are blissfully unaware. And people will lie when people ask why can’t I find a man/ woman because they don’t want to hurt those they care about.

I'm currently single, in my 40s, tried OLD over the last couple of years.
I do think there are decent guys out there, but it's very hard to find them.
It's also hard to keep optimistic when date after date it's obvious they are deeply flawed or just I'm just not physically attracted to them.
Lockdown just adds to the complication, it's hard not to panic that I'll never get to settle down with someone I love.
I have a lot to offer, but it seems no one is interested.

@Mimi07

This has been a very sad read.

I find it surprising that men on here seem to be so offended by the suggestion that so many women deal with abusive men. Come on? Theirs statistics out there for that sort of thing and it’s pretty clear cut on sexual violence. And sexual violence takes place mostly with people you trust.

It must be really crappy being a decent man and hearing ‘men are shit’ all the time. I get it. I too have a wonderful (not perfect) dad and brother but they have to put up with my feminist rantings and I’m glad that they are open to listening to it.

As a white person - I completely accept my privilege and no doubt learnt racism and I am totally open to learning. So whilst it’s crap to hear that you might have work to do, I really really don’t understand the defensiveness.

I imagine I will be single in the near future. I’m 30 and have young kids. So not a prize, apparently. To be honest I don’t want another man to add to my list of things ‘to do’ but it would be nice to know that I wouldn’t be single forever. Maybe I will if it really is that bad out there!!!

We aren't defending the bad behaviours or suggesting they don't happen.

The title of this thread perhaps somewhat shaped the comments that followed.

A board predominantly of one sex will shape the general narrative etc.

But if we leave aside the more extreme behaviours (which I'm assuming we all condemn) I suppose the question is does the behaviour of men and women differ that much. It may be presented in differet ways but I'm not convinced it does and I think a lot of women in their 30s/40s get a bit of a surprise when they realise men aren't necessarily going to go along with things just for the sake of a relationship (although I realise plenty do). Ive said this previously but surely the more sensible men wouldn't when they've been through the mill before.

@user1471565182

Are there the same amount of gay people as straight?

Ah! Stupid me, Thanks, I get it now.

Taking up Wibble's point, I think some of the defensiveness is just to do with the application of terms like "decent" (or not) to highly subjective value judgments based on what women want. Someone for example mentioned "excessive hobbies" as an example of some men's terrible failure to abide by decent relationship standards. But who gets to judge and decide when a hobby becomes excessive? The hobby police? From the hobbyists's point of view, they're probably just carrying on a perfectly harmless part of their life that their partner always knew about, they never gave any indication of an intention to change but said partner somehow got it into their hard that they're entitled to expect them to change. And yet as someone said upthread about some men, it would probably never occur to the woman here that her attitude is "controlling".

The fact is that people want different things, from relationships as from other areas of life. One of the things that needs to be worked out in a relationship is a common understanding about how fully the relationship determines the two partners' lives, and what extent of their lives they have left for themselves. In an overlapping bell curve gender-based distribution, more men seem to lie at the "largely independent" end that spectrum, and more women at the "mostly interdependent" end.

Of course that will mean there are some couples whose expectations align pretty easily, for example with the minority of women who want a relationship that is little more than FWB because they're too busy, career-oriented or whatever for anything else, or the minority of men who are totally dedicated to and comfortable with absolute full-time togetherness. But in most other cases there will be some degree of conflict of expectation and want. That doesn't mean men are bad people; it just means they're different.

I think I have to agree with the OP that there are relatively few men who are the right sort of person for the kind of relationship most women want. What people do with that information is up to them, but the weaving of this moral outrage around it doesn't really work. Some say that if women keep their standards and expectations high enough before they accept a man as partner, men will eventually come round to realising what they have to do to be in a relationship. But that misses the point that most men don't want to be in a relationship on those terms anyway.

@FifteenToes Interesting points. I think it can be even more complicated than that sometimes - for example, I know a woman who married a very family-focussed guy who everyone classes as “decent”, but after ten years together she felt he was no longer “mysterious” or a challenge so she left him for someone much more traditionally “male” - I.e, not as romantic, more emotionally distant, spent most of his time playing computer games and football - because he (apparently) made her feel more “dynamic”.

I suppose the question is does the behaviour of men and women differ that much

I think this is the question and the answer is Yes..because of society's expectations not that men are born this way. I know I am privileged in some ways so completely accept that others have a tougher time in society. I am not sure why some men can't accept that.

@FifteenToes, hobbies for many men can become an addiction which takes precedence over all other priorities in life, including family and partner. I believe it's because hobbies, such as cycling or golfing, allow the participant to feel a sense of achievement and success and relationships are not as tangible to succeed in and probably trickier because who actually "trains" to make sure they have the skills?

Like any definition of addiction, if it causes difficulties in your life, then it's probably is an issue. If a hobby is taking up more time than you are putting into a relationship with family, children and or domestic responsibilities then it's likely to be a problem so I think it's common sense.

We all have the same amount of hours each week so just because you always did something doesn't mean it can continue...circumstances have to be factored in.

I know one man who was left because his golfing took over. He couldn't see it, yet his ex wife had been let down on countless occasions because "he always played golf". The final straw for her was when he failed to cancel a weekend away despite a family member having a terminal illness. He couldn't see what was wrong with this and felt he was being controlled if he had to cancel. The family men around him tried to explain it but he couldn't/wouldn't see it. He is still single and bitter about the split.

Women generally make changes and sacrifices (although also struggle with it) to support the family. It probably starts during pregnancy and continues - women would be harshly judged if they left a newborn to go attend a sportive but there isn't the same judgement for men. There just isn't!

@Techway

I suppose the question is does the behaviour of men and women differ that much

I think this is the question and the answer is Yes..because of society's expectations not that men are born this way. I know I am privileged in some ways so completely accept that others have a tougher time in society. I am not sure why some men can't accept that.

@FifteenToes, hobbies for many men can become an addiction which takes precedence over all other priorities in life, including family and partner. I believe it's because hobbies, such as cycling or golfing, allow the participant to feel a sense of achievement and success and relationships are not as tangible to succeed in and probably trickier because who actually "trains" to make sure they have the skills?

Like any definition of addiction, if it causes difficulties in your life, then it's probably is an issue. If a hobby is taking up more time than you are putting into a relationship with family, children and or domestic responsibilities then it's likely to be a problem so I think it's common sense.

We all have the same amount of hours each week so just because you always did something doesn't mean it can continue...circumstances have to be factored in.

I know one man who was left because his golfing took over. He couldn't see it, yet his ex wife had been let down on countless occasions because "he always played golf". The final straw for her was when he failed to cancel a weekend away despite a family member having a terminal illness. He couldn't see what was wrong with this and felt he was being controlled if he had to cancel. The family men around him tried to explain it but he couldn't/wouldn't see it. He is still single and bitter about the split.

Women generally make changes and sacrifices (although also struggle with it) to support the family. It probably starts during pregnancy and continues - women would be harshly judged if they left a newborn to go attend a sportive but there isn't the same judgement for men. There just isn't!

You can go in circles with this forever. Society doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a construct of the individuals that make it up. You construct a society in which men feel like their time dedicated to their hobbies is as important as "family life" because it's made up of men who think their hobbies are as important as "family life". This isn't necessarily a moral wrong or even indicative of a devaluation of family. A person can hold many things as important . Expecting people who are not you to have the same priorities and ideas of "balance" as you is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

OP, you're judging the dating pool by being on a Relationships forum intended for people with relationship problems. You may as well go onto a wedding website or wedding blog and read threads of women madly in love with stories of meeting great men, to get a balanced view.

People who find decent partners don't normally talk about it on the internet. People who don't will, their voice is the loudest. To allow them to colour your judgement before you've even made a go, is a self fulfilling prophecy. Because your energy will put off decent men, attract arseholes and you'll settle for a crap man believing he's better than what you read about on here.

If you think about it logically, in this day and age, a 'decent' man (or woman!) will want to establish his career, buy property, maybe travel the world and enjoy his hobbies - and when he's done all that, he'll want to settle down. This takes you into your 30s, and that's why there is a sizeable pool of men who actively want relationships and prioritise them. It obviously depends where in the country you are, and big cities/towns will have more of these men. Yes, some of these might not want someone with kids, but there will be others who don't mind - particularly those that don't want kids of their own.

So, if you do want to meet someone, get off these boards, be your most positive, real self, go out there and date! Learn to recognise red flags early on, focus on a guy's life choices rather than just the image he portrays, and mostly tell yourself you WILL meet a fantastic man. With that sort of attitude, at least you'll enjoy dating a lot more, and that will come across to the people you meet.

You can go in circles with this forever. Society doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's a construct of the individuals that make it up. You construct a society in which men feel like their time dedicated to their hobbies is as important as "family life" because it's made up of men who think their hobbies are as important as "family life". This isn't necessarily a moral wrong or even indicative of a devaluation of family. A person can hold many things as important. Expecting people who are not you to have the same priorities and ideas of "balance" as you is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Exactly this. The clue was in Techway's phrase "common sense". The problem is that everyone thinks their own values, assumptions and prejudices are common sense. You can carry on doing that, but it won't get you any closer to understanding relationships with others.

@Wibble01 I think the behaviour does differ. I’m not saying men don’t have to put up with some problematic behaviour from women but I think the behaviour, in general, will differ. I could go on but I won’t.

I think I’m pretty easy going and accepting of differences and different opinions. What I can’t abide is people who are closed off to listening and learning. I do find that men are very defensive and egocentric. But I’ve probably not met a decent amount of them - girls school, married the first guy I met! I do work with mostly men but how much do you know someone you work with.

I’d like to think that all people get better as they get older. Men and women. You’ve got to have hope, right.

But I do worry that I’m wrong from reading some stuff on here. Like you say - we’re reading the worst of it aren’t we. But men and women are, again in general, very different. I guess you just have to accept that and not rely on another person for your happiness. I think women can fall into the trap of putting their ALL into a relationship and into one person and we feel put out when that isn’t retuned.

I have met both men and women who it’s obvious why they are single but they are blissfully unaware.

I've met men and women who are in relationships and it's a puzzle as to why anyone puts up with their crap.

Never done OLD it was after my time. However I doubt people have changed that much.

Most of my husbands friends are 'good' men several never married. By the time they were 30(ish) they'd basically decided dating was too much hassle. They had a lot of bad experience with women and gave up. I worked with a largely female group in a largely male organisation and the girls were pretty mercenary and liked to take the piss of the more vulnerable men.

I suspect you may find that many men just won't do OLD and some will see it as a sweetie shop of women. At 30 and a single mum you need to recognise that you come with baggage, same as many of the men. Ditch the chancers and focus on what you want, it may not happen soon but if you don't try it simply won't happen. Try to make other friendships as OLD is a pretty restrictive pool. My husband was/is a friend of my brother and although he was difficult to get to know at first, shy & awkward, after 30+ years I wouldn't be without him.

@Choccaholic, if you were in an emotional abusive relationship then you definitely should not have stayed. Outcomes for yourself and your child are worse longterm so it is healthier to be alone than in an abusive relationship.

@FifteenToes, the sentence beforehand is highly relevant to the context...I was referring to balance and addiction (defined by - if it causes issues in your relationship). Addicts, be it drugs, alcohol, affairs or hobbies, will always think they are reasonable and justified.

because it's made up of men who think their hobbies are as important as "family life". This isn't necessarily a moral wrong or even indicative of a devaluation of family.

Yes it can be, I gave an example where a man is single because of his behaviour and getting priorities wrong. This man still hasn't learned the lesson and believes he is a good man so doesn't understand why he is single. This is played out with many men..."I have a porn addiction (insert other negative behaviour) but don't know why I'm still single"

The relationship bar for women, only a few decades ago, used to be "he works and doesn't hit me"

Women have raised the bar which is a good thing but it has lead to many more marriages ending and more women deciding to remain single.

Re the comments on bald or shaved heads..I see many men specifying weight, hair length so whilst it maybe shallow I don't think it's unreasonable for either gender. It makes their pool of people smaller but that is their choice.