What’s the deal with not being married?

[Cloud1220]

Myself and DP of 10 years are not married. We have two DC. Mortgage/house in joint names 50/50.

Every thread I see on here (when things get rocky) where someone isn’t married has comments like ‘why didn’t you think about marrying him before you had children?’, ‘this is why you should have been married’ etc.

So, wise people in my phone, what do I need to know?!

I also have a friend who was married and received a large inheritance after her parents had died. She was an only child and they had a house in central London and a successful business so it was in the millions. Her feckless husband who had barely held a job down during their 20y marriage walked off with a large chunk of it when he went off with a much younger woman and they divorced about 10 years later. He used it to buy a large new build house with a pool and to fund almost permanent holidays with his new girlfriend, while she lives nearby in their previous modest family home with 4 kids. She is bitter. I cannot see how this woman would not have been better off if they hadn't been married.

All anecdotes of course and I know there are lots of woman in the opposite position - kids with men they are not married to and low earners, no pension contributions, not on the deeds or renting etc - but it really isn't black and white I don't think.

Yes but the OP is not in the stronger position, she has no assets beyond half the house, limited income and earning potential and a partner who is self employed so would be easily able to wriggle out of paying child support if it came to it

No one is saying it’s black and white, it’s always acknowledged that there are exceptions where the woman is protected by not marrying. The issue is that so many unmarried women who AREN’T the exceptions, don’t fully understand the legal implications of their position. If someone has made a considered and informed decision not to marry and is protected in the event of a split, that’s great-no one is questioning that those women exist. The fact is that the majority, a significant majority I would wager, of unmarried mothers are in a vulnerable financial position in the event of a split. The point of these threads is trying to shine a light on that and ensure that all women make decisions from a point of being fully informed. The anecdotes are exceptions and don’t detract from the fact that marriage is essential to secure the future of women who give up work or massively reduce their earning potential when children come along. The amount of women who ignore that is frightening.

However, I will admit to being frustrated by the OP who says she has learned from this thread but then continues to dismiss out of hand the idea of working full time because she ‘doesn’t want to miss out on these precious years that she won’t get back’. Fine, that’s her decision, but I hope she understands that she’s not just gambling her security but her children’s too. Staying at home or working very part time is a luxury and choosing to do that while ignoring the very real vulnerability of hers and her children’s situation is a huge gamble and one that won’t only affect her in the event that the shit hits the fan. You also won’t get back years of pension contributions and career development but no one ever dwells on that until it’s too late and some would argue that being present and financially secure when children are a bit older is actually far more valuable than when they’re tiny tots.

I realise I sound like I’m slating people who want to be with their small children which isn’t my intention at all, I work a four day week myself for that very reason, I just don’t believe it’s responsible to sacrifice your financial security and that of your children for that luxury.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@DreadingSeason2020sFinale - your mums friend left his assets to his son. He could have done that if he was married too.[/quote]
Not willingly. He should have had a will and left his assets to his partner but they were naive and unprepared.
"Common law wife" was thrown around a lot to be honest. They had assumed because they had a joint account, owned a house together, had her name down at the doctors and hospital etc as "next of kin" and lived as though married that they had their bases covered. They didn't however, have that very important piece of paper that marriage brings. Her next of kin status with the doctors and hospital pretty much meant that she was a contact who they kept informed of his condition and treatment.

I think that probably you friend would have been entitled to a lot less than 50% if she hadn't been married. That is only any formally agreed percentage of the house (if anything), her own money and some maintenance for the children.
You only get the 50% starting place when there is a marriage

They own 3 properties jointly, she is 50% owner of those properties. Why if she wasn’t married would she have got less.

You can’t get less than walking away with what she owns anyway.

Plus if she wasn’t married it would have been over by now and her solicitors fees would have been nowhere near the £60k they are atm and she would have been able to move on and maybe earn money instead of being in this unending nightmare. 5 years down the line and she still hasn’t got a divorce.

I think the final bill will be over £70,000.
Where is the protection from the courts.

Where is this wonderful protection that marriage is supposed to bring

I don’t know anyone who has got spousal maintenance or any extra pension or anything extra than what their name was on.
Equally trying to get CM is a joke

The only reason she is getting 60% is because he beat her and financially abused her but he will never face prosecution for that because the police told her they would prosecute after her divorce but the divorce has taken so long they have said it is too old a case.

I don’t believe in just living together if you don’t have your name all over the house, pension and will.
Somethings can be changed but your name of 50% owner of any property can’t be.

Agreed OP, I'm in a similar situation to you, love my DP to bits but marriage isn't a priority for us atall. We are engaged and have been for a Long time

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/family/living-together-marriage-and-civil-partnership/living-together-and-marriage-legal-differences/

OP, you need to go back to full time work, & have joint finances, pay jointly the child care.
If your DH is not keen, you will be forced to explain why the current status quo is perilous for you if he is injured, dies or most possibly at some point finds a replacement younger version of you. & ask him to imagine how he would feel if he was in your shoes.
It is a team effort & you are a family, & finances are pooled. You are no longer just boyfriend & girlfriend. if not, you will become increasingly uncomfortable, the uncertainty will eat away at you, Is this how he wants your relationship to be?
He won't feel the discomfort as "he's alright Jack"

Savings

Make sure you have separate savings, cards and any accounts with overdrafts, rather than joint accounts, if you’re not married. My friend’s dp cleared out all their savings accounts and current account into the overdraft, then left her. She had no recourse.

Mention to your dp that you could clear the accounts out too, you are both at risk. You must keep everything separate and equal.

@workshy44 as I said op has a defined benefit pension and part from that it seems they own the assets 50/50. It’s likely therefore that op is the wealthiest partner

@DreadingSeason2020sFinale - It’s more likely he wanted his son to inherit. The solicitor would have asked whether or not they wanted to hold the property as joint tenants or tenants in common. He chose to hold as tenants in common and for his son to inherit. He could have made the same choice if he was married and it’s unlikely it was an accident or he believed some myth about common law marriage.

@Oliversmumsarmy that sounds as if your friend had a shite lawyer tbh! Unfortunately they're not all good at their job as in any profession. My 1st in my divorce was slow and had poor attention to detail, gave her a few chances then she made a major cock up and I went to a new one. 2nd was far better! More on the ball, pro-active, assertive and confident. Huge difference!

I was lucky to divorce when low income was still reason for getting legal aid it's an absolute travesty what's happened to legal aid! It's plain undemocratic!

Your friend as a victim of domestic abuse though should also have been eligible for legal aid so why was she £60k out of pocket?

Something went very wrong there!

the police told her they would prosecute after her divorce also nonsense!

I fear she may be telling you certain things to stop you pushing her to get this ex dealt with as he should be. Don't underestimate the loyalty an abuse victim can feel towards the perpetrator even after splitting

your dh can leave his property to whoever he likes on his death whether you are married or not technically yes but if married op could contest a will that cut her out and that's in England, here in Scotland you cannot disinherit your spouse or children.

@DreadingSeason2020sFinale (great username) my mum had a work colleague who was basically turfed out of her home by her partner's adult child pretty much immediately he died. She'd been foolish enough to pay towards a mortgage in cash to him for a house her name wasn't on! She had to live with her son and his family until she could save a deposit and rent somewhere

The vast majority of women in heterosexual relationships in the Uk of child bearing age are financially worse off than their partner or spouse if their sole finances were the reality. Due to biology, patriarchy and capitalist forces.

@Hugstoall so very sorry for your loss

I know others aside from the relative I always reference who've had horrific circumstances to deal with as a result of a partner's death - men and women!

It may be relatively rare but it sadly does still happen that people still do die young. Relatives partner wasn't even 30. One of the single dads I know his partner developed complications during childbirth and died days after, almost lost their child too just horrific set of circumstances that collided to cause that. He was in a high demand career prior to her death, she was young, fit and apparently healthy - no previous indication whatsoever there was an issue, sailed through the pregnancy until that point. A fitness class teacher! Total shock to everyone who knew them.

He literally turned stone cold over night

I had the same exact experience!

He literally turned into a stranger in front of not only my eyes but his parents, siblings and oldest friends too. It's now nearly 20 years later and his actions then have caused permanent family rifts in his family.

So many times we see on here as I said earlier posters saying/thinking things like:

"He's not like that"

"He'd never leave the kids stuck"

"His parents won't let him do anything like that"

All things I foolishly thought until my divorce - his parents and sister genuinely believed he was having a breakdown his behaviour was so out of character. His oldest friends were disgusted by him and dumped him pdq! I had them phoning me and me having to "support" them as it threw them so much! Insane!

Re the argument "not all women are the vulnerable ones in heterosexual relationships" - if you have dc why wouldn't you want to ensure your partner is properly protected in the event of YOUR incapacity or death?

Really you're speaking from the same perspective as the majority of men who resist marriage and you're doing it for the same reason as them - unacceptable!

We are engaged and have been for a Long time

Sorry but that just sounds like he's fobbing you off!

Graphista

Friend wasn’t eligible for legal aid as she part owns more than one property.

the police told her they would prosecute after her divorce also nonsense

I fear she may be telling you certain things to stop you pushing her to get this ex dealt with as he should be. Don't underestimate the loyalty an abuse victim can feel towards the perpetrator even after splitting

Definitely not. I have seen the letters from the police and the CPS

Even though she has recordings and videos of the abuse they said they couldn’t use them as it could have been play acting.

It has been a real sh*t storm from the beginning and it is still not over.

The thing is I have seen other friends go through similar and I have yet to see women come out of this with a fair share if they are relying on a marriage certificate as financial protection

Also she is on her 3rd solicitor as they all got fed up with dealing with her ex’s crap and lies and his solicitor just doing as his client instructed. Whether that was correct or not.

I want to second what Georgina is saying.

These threads come up,regularly. And a considerable percentage of participants ALWAYS misinterpret the advice (wilfully? Who knows).

It isn’t that marriage is always better. (It isn’t) it isn’t that married women look down on unmarried.

The important advice is that if you are living with a partner, and considering having children, you need to think carefully about how to protect the person who might be sacrificing their career prospects if they take a step back to care for the children.

In many circumstances, because of biology, that will be the Woman. But not always. myDH is a SAHD. If I ran off with the milkman or got run over by a bus, he’d be OK financially because we are married. I am actually in a worse position financially if I wanted to leave than if we were unmarried. But I’m not a massive twat, so I’m OK with that.

I didn't think it mattered, but if you are not married the law does not protect you at all. In my situation, in the early days he earned multiples of what I earned so not marrying him was stupid on paper. But; I always worked, and am in a well paid public sector job so have a very healthy pension to look forward to . Also,. made absolutely sure to be on the deeds to the property. So now, as he is a freelance contractor and has not worked for 6 months I think I am better off not being married. But for most women I think the advice has to be If you are having a child for god's sake get married.

A friend of mine wasn't married. They had been together 20 years. He was estranged from his parents. Hadn't actually seen his mum for a number of years. She was his carer in ill health before he died. She ended up in a minor role at his funeral. The arrangements were entirely dictated by his parents and they positioned themselves as chief mourners. She was completely sidelined. His wishes re funeral (which she knew) were not followed. The experience was traumatic for her.

They didn't have kids and he didn't leave a will, the parents took all of his finances they could. The house registered in joint names and the shared bank account they couldn't touch but he had a death in service payout and a chunk of savings that they just swooped on.

She says she never would have predicted that his parents would behave like that. I guess he knew them a bit better which is why he was NC with them.

@EssentialHummus

As sweet said. Do you have wills naming one another as beneficiaries? If he is hit by a bus tomorrow and you don't, his share of the house is likely to go to his parents. If either of you decide that the relationship has run its course, you'll have your share of the house and child maintenance but no claim on his assets, even if you're a SAHM who has given up her career to raise the kids and he is Jeff Bezos.

No, it will go to his children, in trust until they are old enough to legally inherit (18).

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@Winter2020 - it’s not true that married people can’t change their wills or leave (or even sell) their property to whoever they like. In England they can.

Op sounds like you may be better off getting married but if you own half the assets plus have a good defined benefit pension actually you could be better off unmarried. Don’t listen to any of the stuff re next of kin or medical decisions - it’s not at all true in English law.[/quote]
Yep. I drew up a will this week for a husband who was cutting his wife out. They were still together, not separated. All correspondence had to be sent to another relative’s address so she won’t find out.

The thing to remember is, however, that if you are married and left out of the will, you are very certainly eligible to make a claim in the estate.

@electronVolt - I’m not a massive twat either thanks, id just rather keep my assets for dds and me. My ex can look after himself as he is an adult. He was working full time throughout our relationship and as I said did his share of the childcare when we were together but was did not give up or change his job nor did it I lock him in the house or Otherwise prevent him from working. I gave him a lot financially when we were together- why should I give him a big chunk of my assets because we have split up? How does that make me a “massive twat”? It’s not easy being a single parent you know - wonder how you would actually feel about giving your ex money if you actually were.

@Graphista - re your question “ if you have dc why wouldn't you want to ensure your partner is properly protected in the event of YOUR incapacity or death?” - protected from what? Wouldn’t you want to protect your dc? I know I would.

In any event “protecting” an unmarried partner doesn’t mean you have to marry them. As I’ve said, marriage doesn’t entitle you to make medical decisions for someone and you can leave your estate to anyone you like including an unmarried partner or someone other than your spouse (eg your children) if you like.

It’s not quite true that in Scotland you can’t disinherit your spouse, however there are what’s called legal rights for the spouse and children. This means they get a third each of the moveable estate regardless of what it says in the will. It doesn’t tend to be very much in most cases as the largest part of estates tend to be heritable property (houses, land buildings) which are excluded but in some cases it can be a lot. Another reason not to marry if you would prefer your property went to your dc.

Fantastic thread.
Agree with the majority of posters about the advantages of marriage for most women and children.
Can testify to bereavement arrangements being so much simpler if a spouse.
Next of kin - yes, in the majority of health- related situations, makes no difference if you are spouse or partner eg: elective routine surgery. However, when the shit hits the fan, there will always be a minority of families that can totally take power from a partner, should they choose to. I’m a hospital consultant. I remember one particularly tragic case where a woman died suddenly shortly after delivering her 3rd child. Totally unexpected.
Her first 2 children were from previous marriage - ex-h lived abroad and not contactable. Didn’t see children. Woman and children lived with her partner of couple of years. He had moved into her house but no financial ties to her legally, despite contributing financially and sharing childcare. No will. Woman’s family did not get on well with partner. Woman had substantial assets and was a high earner.
Upon her death, her family appointed themselves as next of kin, excluded him from funeral arrangements etc and made him leave the house with his belongings. They (awfully) contested that he was the father of the newborn - as of course the mother had not yet arranged birth certificate. He had to appoint a legal team, arrange DNA testing etc to prove he was the father - whilst grieving. He wasn’t allowed the take the baby “home” - and shortly afterwards had no home, and was prevented from seeing the 2 older children. It was very unpleasant being involved in this as a clinician, so can’t even imagine how it felt for the poor man to have his whole world fall apart - but I’m sure the woman would not have wanted this outcome.
Useful to demonstrate that marriage can be useful for anyone who holds less power, and is particularly important before you have children. Nobody thinks of death or permanent disability, or even being in ICU/HDU for a few weeks (of the woman) in pregnancy. It’s uncommon, but for most of us is the most dangerous thing we’ll ever do, medically.

That's very sad, @quince2figs. Poor chap, poor kids.

I don't think I've ever said that marriage is better for everyone, as quite obviously it isn't. We each have to think of our own circumstances. What I want is for women (and men) to have accurate information and to think things through in a logical way before coming to a decision about whether to marry or not (or nowadays, enter into a CP or marry or neither).

I'd also be delighted if people fixated less on the wedding and more on the marriage. When two people live together in a committed relationship which they expect to last, and especially if they have children, they need to focus on getting the legal side of things straight so both are protected and both know where they stand (and so does everyone else - thus avoiding all these awful stories of parents/children of first marriage/estranged spouse swooping in and arranging the funeral and taking the whole estate after a sudden death).

My personal view is that if having a frank decision about money and marriage is impossible the relationship is doomed.

Absolutely, Gaspode’

I would be delighted if , as a society, we moved towards marriage being viewed as the contract of a committed relationship (in a positive way).

Better this, than a year or two of wedding planning/bridezilla/pressure to spend 20-30k or more on what is essentially a very expensive party, followed by no thought to how the marriage will play out financially or roles, especially if children arrive.
Particularly sad if multiple marriages follow this pattern.
Perhaps the low-key COVID enforced weddings will start a new trend?

KylieKangaroo

If you're the higher earner not being married benefits you in the event of a split and you can use other means to safeguard rights such as lasting power of attorney and wills.