What’s the deal with not being married?

[Cloud1220]

Myself and DP of 10 years are not married. We have two DC. Mortgage/house in joint names 50/50.

Every thread I see on here (when things get rocky) where someone isn’t married has comments like ‘why didn’t you think about marrying him before you had children?’, ‘this is why you should have been married’ etc.

So, wise people in my phone, what do I need to know?!

My elderly mother’s generation (Not well off financially and wartime/postwar austerity) almost exclusively had a local wedding in church or registry office, for a reasonably small number of friends and family. Home made or off the peg dress, but often a suit or tea dress rather than full-on meringue.

Ceremony in the morning, followed by a lunch/afternoon tea buffet at home. Couple left for honeymoon in afternoon, which was abroad for a lucky few, but often a long weekend in a nice UK hotel.

Job done. No evening piss-up, formal meals, or overnight stays needed for guests. No stag/hen weekends abroad (shudder). Cheap and happy.

Hasn’t seemed to have reduced the chances of their marriages lasting 50-60 years, for the most part.

@quince2figs I am doing this- religious ceremony and afternoon tea in synagogue hall (ok i have a fancy banquet lunch in reception In asia too, but my relatives are all giving money to help fund it which is cultural; no one in my family has ever lost money on their reception). Even though i delayed my wedding for 5 years to buy my London flat first (hence why its 5 years!), I still can't stomach spending that much on 1 day when I have a mortgage to repay.

I think its because people are getting married later. and often family helps too. My SIL spent 30k on her wedding in Israel (I estimated, given how high food costs are in the uk, and her dress was a £1500 rental). But she actually received much more in gifts... as the groom had a big and generous family. But I do agreee weddings should be simpler and if it discourages people from getting married, thats just sad.

@Osirus that’s awful - how do you bite your tongue with such a shit of a client? Or is he simultaneously talking to your family department about a divorce?

quince2figs

I know a few of the people you describe and can tell you that their marriages weren’t as healthy and loving as you would think.

For the most part the reason they lasted so long was because it wasn’t the thing for a married woman to work. Let alone one who had children (cue 1/2 of MN saying how their gm worked all through the marriage) so for the most part the woman was forced to stay.

There weren’t the benefits in place to support someone on a woman’s wage.

I wonder how long these marriages would have lasted if the benefits that are available today were around in the 40s/50sand 60s
And women were actually paid an equal salary to the men doing the same work. Or that finance/credit and mortgages were available to women without having a man sign for them.

We had a small wedding and a wonderful honeymoon. The wedding was about sharing our commitment to our family and the honeymoon was for us. No regrets about a big day

@CayrolBaaaskin. That absolutely wasn’t a dig at you. Apologies if it read like that. Our situations are very different. Especially as your DH worked.

My point was that my DH didnt work for 8 years as a SAHD. Which hugely held his career back, whilst all the time I was advancing mine in quite a big way (my pay doubled in that time)

So it was only fair that we made sure we were married before he took a step back. The OPs DP on the other hand HAS allowed her to step back, knowing that if he ran off with the milkman he could legally take their wealth with him. I can’t.

Oh, yes, oliversmumsarmy, I’m not under any illusions that post-war marriages were any happier than now. Divorce was frowned upon as a society, and it was very difficult for for women to live independently.

What I was trying to say, was that the success/failure, or happiness/unhappiness of a marriage don’t depend on how much money is spent on that one day, or how Instagram-able the photos are.

I am sure that some couples seriously believe this, unfortunately

@quince2figs as a bride, i think its very easy to overspend on a wedding unfortunately if you don't keep your other goals in mind? You start out saying everything would be simple and elegant, you would buy a dress from Monsoon, there would be 50 guests and you would handmake the favours.

Then your mum starts digging out some friend/relative who she hasn't seen in 30 years and suddenly would die if he/she doesn't come to your wedding. Oh and you suddenly remember your mum has 6 siblings. Oh and your mum mentions that all your cousins had XXX wedding at XXX place and how lovely it was and not too expensive. Then you start looking at the options, and you realize that when you add wedding to anything, the caterers and the vendors all jack up their price 5X and if you add a bit more, you might potentially get something that is quite a bit nicer.So you increase your budget just by a little and replicate that for everything.

Oh and the Monsoon dress? Everyone you ask says its not bridal enough, whatever that means. Oh and the bridal shops start at £1k(i eventually gave up and went to a lovely seamstress in Hayes who usually does Indian weddings and asked her to makae my dress for £450).

If you aren't careful, your modest wedding is suddenly £20-30k and your guest list has swelled to over a hundred guests.I am not saying that its not possible to have a wedding for little, i have seen beautiful weddings for £1k and awful weddings for £50k. What you spend has nothing to do with how it looks. A wedding is about the people. But if you get distracted by the hoopla, its very easy to overspend.and most people overspend.

So I guess people are scared off by the prospect of an expensive stressful day and I think that is sad because marriage and weddings are beautiful things, just complicated by other people's unrealistic expectations and opinions.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-marriage-gap

Now it’s said that marriage is under threat in British society. It was recently revealed that almost half of children are born to unmarried parents; this figure, however, hides a bit of divergence. For the well-off, marriage rates are high, and have stayed high. It’s for those lower down the income scale that family life is changing.

These changing patterns are partly shaped by a welfare state that allows for lower-income women to scrape by with children without the need for a suitable mate, of whom there are now increasingly few available. And scrape by they do. In Britain, 47 per cent of children in lone- parent families live in relative poverty, almost twice the proportion of those whose parents live together. Whether those parents are married or just cohabiting makes a huge difference to life chances, since unmarried couples are six times more likely to break up before their first child’s fifth birthday.

I once read that British people think that we are like France/Sweden where couples don't tie the knot and can live pretty much like married couples where financies/childcare are shared and the marriage is just a piece of paper. But the data in the uk doesn't match up to this- unmarried couples break up at a higher rate (maybe because its easier) and this has an impact on family life. Its not necessarily bad that the breakup rate is higher, it means women can walk away from a bad relationship but I don't know if you had a choice whether its good to start off family life in a position where the odds of breakup are significantly higher.

I'm 48,never married. It was never anything I thought too much about. I've had long-term relationships over the years but always maintained my independence. I never wanted children, which is probably why I never bothered with marriage. Man I am with is 50 and never married. I cant see us ever marrying and it doesnt bother me at all once I'm happy and he's happy.

@IRunLikeJoeBiden Which hospital forms are these that you can sign in advance ? Fo all circs?

protected from what? The legal and financial ramifications of those eventualities!

It's extremely expensive to care for someone who is incapacitated especially if they require 24 hour personal care. Frankly it's generally easier and cheaper if someone dies! Harsh though that may sound

There's the possibility the partner/spouse may need to quit work to care for them, or if they don't then paying for such care is massively expensive AND difficult to find good quality flexible carers

There's the costs of BEING disabled - equipment from adapted tools to beds to wheelchairs to adapted tech, then there's things like incontinence products, additional laundry costs, replacing clothes and linens that are wrecked by eg spillages or blood stains or toileting stains or which simply wear out quicker from extra laundering, additional admin and record keeping costs...

Most critical illness cover is woefully inadequate and if you think the state covers all costs you're deluded!

Wouldn’t you want to protect your dc? I know I would of course but how do you think that happens? You can't give eg an 8 year old a massive inheritance or critical illness payout and expect them to manage everything, they need an adult to care for them and manage their home and needs, in the majority of cases this will be down to the other parent rather than grandparents (who may not be young/fit enough or willing to take on young children or even teens). You protect your children BY protecting their other parent surely?

Even as a divorcee I had/have things in place to ensure ex was able to care for dd in the event of my death or incapacity. Particularly important to me as I have a degenerative and unpredictable disability that could have rendered me unable to care for dd during her childhood, thankfully things didn't reach that stage and I managed to get dd to adulthood before things got that bad.

I had the slightly unusual experience of having as a nurse seen families in that situation and how tough it was for them. And that was when the welfare side of things was a damn sight better than it is now!

Marriage isn't the whole way to ensure these protections but under Uk laws it does make things a lot more clear cut and easier to implement at a time when a family is going through a traumatic and challenging life changing event.

There's absolutely no telling how a partner's family will behave in the event of a major accident/illness or death I've seen some dreadful actions by people grieving and not considering the long term consequences of their actions or plain not caring or being purely selfish.

@quince2figs yes I'm sure many hcps have seen exactly what a nightmare it can be when relationships aren't clearly legally defined and grieving, traumatised families react out of grief, anger, shock... or indeed simply because as per your example the family never liked the partner anyway and the partner has no legal standing!

It’s uncommon, but for most of us is the most dangerous thing we’ll ever do, medically.

Exactly! I almost died during childbirth due to a rare complication. Emcs in the end and dd and I barely made it. No way of predicting the complication prior to labour and I was actually plain bloody lucky the consultant spotted it! I've a few friends who have had similar experiences and I've sadly known 2 women who've lost their lives during childbirth. It's not the easy, natural event it's often portrayed as.

I'd also be delighted if people fixated less on the wedding and more on the marriage

I agree!

I used to work in the wedding industry but in the time since I left it's become absolutely insane! I think mainly down to social media and basically ordinary people having a "public image" they feel pressured to maintain - Instagram etc

It's ridiculous! The industry is to blame too of course as the "up-selling" has also become way out of control!

It needs reined in somehow.

My own wedding was large in terms of numbers of guests (I'm from a large, close, catholic family) but not in terms of budget. It was an "old fashioned" chapel and village hall affair with savvy decisions made on various areas and certain "connections" made it cheaper for us too - mainly military ones as dad and ex were both army.

It's entirely possible even now to have a really beautiful but simple/small wedding.

Yet couples get themselves into £10,000's in debt for ONE day totally unnecessarily! Which is not the best way to start a marriage either as financial stress is the last thing you need at the start! And is indeed the root cause of many divorces, I even wonder if current wedding trends are leading to more divorces this way.

Couples are better working out their budget first and then knowing what kind of wedding they can afford, instead they decide on type of wedding first and then try and find a way to pay for it!

Perhaps the low-key COVID enforced weddings will start a new trend?

One can only hope!

@quince2figs - yes my grans both married during/post-war and had simple functional but happy weddings. Clothing rationing meant they wore their best skirt suits rather than wedding dresses. Chapel weddings, wedding breakfast served for guests at their parents homes (and these were not posh homes! All working class and really quite poor) food & drink was made/contributed by many of the guests as wedding gifts, photos taken by guests etc

When my parents married they had the same setup the main difference being my mothers parents home was bigger as they were in new flats built through post war social housing building schemes (they're still called schemes here) it still wasn't a large or posh home by any means and the catering etc was still sorted by guests, mums gran made the cake. Honeymoon was at a caravan!

Only one of those marriages was a happy/healthy one but nothing to do with the weddings. Although no divorces (Catholicism rules  but also those generations divorce was looked down on anyway)

So often on threads like this there are posters saying they "can't afford" to get married when what they mean is they can't afford a "hello" style expensive wedding!

For the most part the reason they lasted so long was because it wasn’t the thing for a married woman to work. Let alone one who had children see this trotted our repeatedly on such threads on mn and its nonsense! Working class women (which were the majority!) always worked inc after dc

Women still aren't paid equal to men or even employed. Women are still trapped in unhappy even abusive marriages culturally and financially.

@hopingforonlychild you speak as if a wedding is out of the control of the marrying (and usually these days paying) couple! It's simply a case of being organised and self disciplined.

I think a big part of the reason why things are so awful in terms of couples with dc separating and the mothers and dc being left in dire straits is that it's become FAR too easy and socially acceptable for men to abandon their responsibility to their families on the slightest whim and they're not even properly pursued and made to pay child maintenance. It's a disgrace how things are regarding that at the moment!

It's good there's no longer as much stigma and shame to single motherhood as there was and things continue to improve on that score (though not as fast as would be hoped) but the lack of holding to account of the fathers of those children and children who's parents have divorced is the down side.

There's still a lot needs to change.

@Graphista oh i know that the costs are the choice of the couple, my wedding is going to be very simple (and also 6 years after my civil ceremony which meant i could buy my first home before spending on the wedding). I am just saying in my experience, why perfectly normal people spend so much and also why other people are put off. Which is just wrong, if you want to be married, don't let the costs put you off! It doesn't need to be expensive. When you see why other people spend so much, it makes even less sense to spend.

I once read that British people think that we are like France/Sweden where couples don't tie the knot and can live pretty much like married couples where financies/childcare are shared and the marriage is just a piece of paper.
No,That's news to me, (French citizen)
The essential difference is that you cannot disinherit a child in France.
You cannot leave all your money to your spouse/OW/cat

My dad just died. Cancer battle that lasted just a year. In that time he managed to create a simple will and sell off his assets (just his car tbh).
He'd been with his partner for 20 years but never married. Despite her being his contact/next of kin at the doctors and hospitals, hospices and nursing home, she didn't handle his ill health well. She put road blocks in the way of simple things like not ordering his meds, or saying no to carers but refusing to do it herself until she wanted to.
She wasn't intentionally cruel (but cruel she was!), she just shut the problem out of her mind. She had to go to work and dad would be left, upstairs with access to the toilet but unable to come downstairs, until she got back. That would be fine IF she left him food and drinks upstairs. Which she didn't.
Later when he worsened, she would do stuff like shave him with the clippers but didn't put a towel on him to catch the bristly hairs or wipe them off his bare body so he would have to lie in his bed all day itching and irritated but unable to scratch or wipe himself up. He really wanted a certain meal (easy enough to get) but in the 6 months of him being immobile, she refused it him. No reason as far as we can tell, she just wouldn't buy it (and it was his money paid for the food in the house). He told me about it every few days on the phone. (I'm in another country so couldn't do anything about it)

When he was really bad she refused the 4 carers prescribed a day because she hated strangers "traipsing through her house" and allowed just two visits a day. So dad would be left for hours in his own shit.

And THANK FUCK they weren't married. We didn't have time to wait for social services and court decisions overruling his wife etc. My DB, as his eldest blood relative, came back and, as he had all the rights, he got him the help he needed. He took over everything. Had dad moved to a lovely facility and kept dad's partner involved but took all the decisions away from her. She wasn't doing a single thing in dad's best interests. She must have known because she fought nothing.

Maybe it was a MH issue, we don't know. But this is one time not being married really helped.

I’m so sorry for your loss @ThouShallNotPass
Seems like an awful situation and I imagine it was really tricky looking on from afar.