Why does she say this

[Lithium2020]

I'm in the kitchen, I'm standing by the counter looking for something to eat and I am stood next to the kettle. DW comes in, been wfh and comes down from study.

DW - do you want a coffee?
Me - ummm yea
short pause
Me - actually can I have a tea
DW - "Well make it yourself, you're stood next to the kettle so do it yourself. And I will have a coffee"
Me ... silence.. and then make the drinks

We've had counselling - she was told that she needs to work on her "delivery". I just don't understand why she talks to me like that... I feel so small.

I'm I in the wrong for being too sensitive? Will she ever change. For years I just let it pass me by, then a while back I started being a bit more assertive but its caused friction

Thanks everyone. I will seek help from professionals in order to navigate out

Great news. Life will improve immeasurably when you haven't got somebody bullying you to the extent that you can't even make a cup of tea right.

OK collective wisdom of MN!

Its been pointed out to me that the relationship has been in 'drama triangle' state for some time. In this I play the role of the victim and my DW the persecutor although we do move around a bit. I've done some reading and it does explain a lot. I sort of knew this dynamic was happening, but not in a psychological framework as such.

So as I said, when I try and move out of the victim role this forces my wife to be more of a persecutor. When I try to be assertive she puts me back in my corner.. and I fall back into the victim instead of standing my ground.

In short, I've been being emotionally manipulated a lot over the course of my relationship and I can now see it happening again. Now we are discussing separation I can see more manipulation. We haven't even discussed moving out but she asked "how do you think you would feel living in a flat on your own".... I just said I hadnt thought about it. Its a loaded question - putting the seed in my mind that its going to be that moves out. It took me a few minutes to realise what was happening - so I missed my chance, but I should have replied "actually no, we would have to discuss who moves and what is best". But I didn't

I can just see it over and over again .. like its scary now I can see it.

So what do I do! I've identified that I need to change, and I defo need to change because being in this "triangle" has caused me to have a breakdown. And I want to change as I don't want it to happen again.

And if I can change, then someone else can change. So do I sit and wait and hope it improves!!

Wherever you live, I still can't shake the feeling that you'd feel a lot happier living on your own! Best of luck whatever you do work out.

What makes you think she will change if you sit and wait?

You’ve been sitting waiting for years as life passes you by. Serve her with divorce papers and enjoy life, there’s no need to tolerate that shit one minute longer.

From experience, do not waste your life waiting for someone to change. She has shown you who she is.

One step forward and two steps back.. HELP

We continue to speak and discuss. I know everyone says leave etc, nut lets put that to one side for a moment.

So as context, I've to my own admission been a doormat in the relationship to the point where I ignore what could be potentially considered bad behavior in order to keep the peace. But over a period of time its left me feeling low and I got help. I've worked on trying to be more assertive and being in control of my feelings and expressing them. But 2020 has been an awful year for me, I've been very low and just had no motivation and not been myself.

I stepped away from couples counselling after a couple of months as I felt my voice wasn't being heard and we weren't getting anywhere. I've never labelled my DW as abusive, but at times she has said to me "by saying thats how you feel, you are making out that I am abusive"

And now its happening again - I feel like I've been punched. My DW has told me that the couples counselor has told her in a private session that actually I'm abusive. An example used was that my DW wanted to go on holiday, I was getting help for depression and said that I didn't want to go because I didn't feel up for it. She said she would go by herself, and I said that upset me a bit as I could have done with a bit of support. Therefore I am coercive and controlling because I stop her from doing things.

Also when I explored my depression with professionals I realised that a lot of it was driven by fearing being single, being obliged to stay in the relationship and not give up on it. And guilt that if we part, she will never have a family whereas I could. So I've told her this and explained why I had been feeling so low. She has now read online that people who experience FOG is because they are living with an abusive partner. I said not at all.. thats not what I mean and that I am not saying she has a personality disorder etc.

So this is not about LTB. I want to work through things, because i believe that I will carry them forward with me irrelevant whether we stay together or not. I've told her that she needs to speak to a professional but she refuses to get help (other than couples which I drove)

Does anyone have any advice

What do you think of all the advice people have given you in all of your threads about this?

I know everyone says leave etc, nut lets put that to one side for a moment

What you're saying, essentially, is that you've asked for advice, but you're putting that advice to one side, and you'd like advice.

If you're not prepared to listen, don't ask for advice.

And now its happening again - I feel like I've been punched.
How do you intend to avoid this in future?

I’m going to go against the grain here, but I don’t think either the kettle or the plate incidents were abusive.

I’ve been in a relationship with someone very passive, who couldn’t make a decision and where every action or innocent comment was a slight against them. It’s draining, and whilst it’s clear your wife has gone too far with her level of control... I can understand it to an extent. In a relationship with somebody so passive you end up having to take the reins else nothing happens or gets done. It’s not necessarily abusive, but it’s not healthy either.

You’ve been told many many times the best course of action would be to split, which you clearly have no real intention of doing - it just reads a bit like you’re coming to have a moan and to get people to agree with you how bad she is. You sound draining, and you’re obviously not right for each other.

Sorry this is happening to you OP.

It reminds me so much of my marriage, which was very much in the ‘drama triangle’ cycle. My wife used to attack me and I withdrew to avoid conflict.

In the end I had an affair with someone who was loving and kind to me. I’m not proud of how my marriage ended but I’m so glad it did. We’re now separated and getting divorced. Our 3 DC are so much happier now, as am I.

With a lot of therapy I’m rebuilding myself. I now strongly suspect my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder, and elements of what you’ve said make me wonder whether this is true for you too OP. For example:

‘She asked me to move into a different room because I was disrupting her sleep, and when I did she then got upset.’

This is pretty classic Borderline behaviour. I’ve just read a book which is helpful on the subject, called I Hate You, Don’t Leave Me. Might be worth looking into in any case.

I hope you manage to resolve it and find happiness. It sounds like leaving might be the best option but ultimately only you can make that decision. Individual therapy would probably be helpful - it sounds like you’re beyond couples therapy tbh if the relationship is abusive.

All the best - feel free to PM me if you think it would help.

You can carry on being a doormat if that's preferable to being on your own. You can carry on being too scared to assert your rights in case she gets annoyed. If she had an affair, would you forgive that too? She has such little respect for you, it wouldn't surprise me if she did at some point get her head turned by another.
Whatever you do, or don't do, it would be unfair on DC to bring them into it, hopefully you'll find that she doesn't want to relinquish her power by having DC.

My advice is to recognise that this relationship is over. Maybe have therapy with a view to that- ending this as well as possible.

I'm so sorry that you've been made to feel like this, but you need to start the long, slow journey away from this marriage now.

It will be so worth it for your happiness and self-esteem eventually. Good luck

OP if your DW has said "how would you feel about living in a flat on your own" then surely this means that she is seriously considering splitting? I think sometimes if we don't act when we should, something happens outside our control which forces us to act.

I also don't think that you can unravel what has gone on for you and where you want to be in terms of processing things, boundaries, being assertive, balancing your needs with others, fully understanding other people's boundaries, what is and is not abusive etc etc etc unless you have some time and space, without other things being thrown into the mix.

Such as the latest "the couples therapist thought you are abusive" thrown into the mix. It is more difficult for you to deal with that now, so long after the event. Though now it has been thrown into the mix I think you need to ask the therapist what they meant, can you contact them?

If you split and you both separately have time to deal with your thoughts and feelings, if you were right together you will get back together.

Also, sometimes what draws us to someone is the same thing that draws us away unless the relationship has been developed on decent foundations of love and respect. Is it that which has happened here? You were attracted to her strength and her being in control. She was attracted to wanting to look after you. But it went sour because you didn't build the relationship on foundations of love or respect and now the things you were drawn to are the things which are driving you apart.

Why didn't you say "yes thanks I'd love one" when she offered you a coffee? You've spoken to her like a grumpy teen-ager and then changed your order without apology. Her response was also rude but I'd feel offended if my partner spoke to me like this.

Your marriage sounds over and dead, for a long time.

Thank goodness you don't have children to compound the misery.

You should be seeking help to give you the strength to end this relationship and help you get to a place where you can have a healthy relationship.

You can't fix your wife, who sounds like she actively dislikes you.

She can't fix you either.

There aren't any children.

Accept your marriage is dead.
Move on.

Unless you'd prefer to limp along for years.

The choice is yours.
You will be the one who will live with consequences of your decision.

Bravery is what is required to accept your marriage is over.

You need to be brave before you can hope for a better happier future.

Believe that you deserve to be happy.

Wishing you strength

Abusers often call the victim abusive.

You cannot change her, only you.
You are not a rubbish bin for anyone to dump all their shit onto.

It is very common for abused partners to internalise what the other does. This leads to illness, auto immune disorders and other unexplained illnesses.
Your body is crying out to you and you perhaps have some cognitive dissonance going on.
It's going to take more than a few sessions of counselling to uncover what is going on here.
You may also be addicted to the relationship in terms of all the stress hormones flying around your body.

Leaving can be excruciating and without this deeper work you may worsen outside of the relationship.

Think about attending 12 step recovery groups such as Coda or SLAR.

Find a therapist who specialises in abuse.

Stop sharing how you are feeling or what you are thinking with her. She's not your friend.
On her part, it may all be unconscious patterns she is playing out from childhood but you cannot concern yourself with that.
I would be focusing on getting informed, building support and strength, and getting out in one piece.

She sounds horrible and as if she's deliberately provoking you and trying to make you 'do the wrong thing' so that she can have a go at you. You should end the relationship. You would probably find that you'd have more confidence without her knocking it constantly.

This relationship is absolutely miserable.

There is no good reason to be in such an unhealthy, unhappy dynamic. It is draining the life out of you and further worsening both people's mental health.

You have shared what's going on and people have been advising you to leave, because anyone can see that's the right thing to do objectively.

Asking for support and advice, but effectively saying you won't listen to it if that support and advice says to leave her means you won't move on from the way you're currently living.

Nobody in their right mind would tell you to keep trying. It's madness.

@Eckhart - I hear your point and yes whats the point in asking if I bury my head in the sand. I'm guilty of overrthinking a lot of things, and I guess Im trying to look at the same problem from a different angle but its still the same problem!

@ravenmum - Well I am in a destructive cycle. You either need to get the cycle to change or leave. That's what I'm trying to figure out. But given that in exploring how to change seems to be making the cycle stronger, then the evidence would suggest its not going to change.

@thisisyourfightsong I think you make an excellent point and agree. The worse place to be to try and stop a war is in the battlefield itself. However - I suggested some time apart and she said no. She said if I made the decision it was over then that was it, and there would never be a chance to comeback. This was a big U-turn though, as initially she said she would move away for a bit but then next day changed her mind because it would impact her work. So I was left with the choice of either staying or me moving out. And it goes back to the victim triangle. I then feel the victim as its my life that's being impacted. Your point on what draws us in tears us apart is 100% exact.

@overoptimism I did say "yes please"... but then she threw it back in my face. Deep down I do think she hates me. She hates me for disrupting the status quo, for suggesting things had to change and for trying to not be the person that she knows me as. She cant tell me she hates me, so she expresses it in different ways

@Opentooffers. I have wondered that as well -- whether she is happy with some of the stuff that she gets out of the relationship now, and other stuff she isnt getting she gets elsewhere. She has a lot of male friends and will chat most days to a lot of them. Its never worried me, and its definitely not physical as she has only left the house during lockdown without me a few times. I did find a handwritten love poem in her bag from someone at work earlier in the year but after a bit of consideration I decided it was likely a joke.

But I do wonder - when I said i felt immeasurable guilt that if we split she would likely not have a family of her own she said that "she already had her own plans" and when I asked her to explain she refused to tell me.

What would your ideal relationship look like?

And just on the point about the dynamic about the tea. Its not that event per se. I've been using my time to read and learn and understand about the situation

"Is it abuse????". Its an interesting question. And I think the words gets thrown around and its a very agressive/provocative word. The best definition I saw was "actions or words that cause you to change your actions or words in order to accommodate them". I guess if you think about that then we probably all do it to some extent at work or at home. But I guess its a continuation of that behavior over time.

And now I'm starting to understand it more it does scare me a bit. If I wash and clean the cars on a Saturday, she will say that its not good enough and next time she will just take it to the car wash. My first thought is that I'm not good enough. Internally it upsets me as deep down I know its a good job, but in the back of my mind I'm thinking the next time I do it I will have to do an even better job. Or clean them more often

Sometimes if there is only a few plates or a couple of cups to wash I will do them by hand - its good to feel that I'm helping the environment by using the dishwasher less. She doesn't like it, and will wait till I am done will just take the stuff off the drying rack and put them in the dishwasher anyway. She will even say to me that I'm wasting my time....When I try and stand my ground it turns into an argument which she will invariably win. So in the end I just do it in secret when she is watching TV or on the phone.

She has done very well in her job, she travels with work a lot and works very long hours and often at the weekend. I raised the point that it was too much and she needed to cut back. Her response was that I was a hypocrite because a few weeks previously I had worked on a Saturday. So now I'm scared ever to work on a weekend because it undermines my concern, and it wont give me any ground to express my concerns. Last week I needed 30 minutes to send some emails to work, so I got up early on Sunday before she was awake and she never knew.

I do change my behavior. But being a young male, its very hard to admit to myself I am in this position. I feel weak and ashamed

Lithium you are already much stronger than you were at the start of this post.

The beauty of MN is you get led down all sorts of garden paths. Some cause you more confusion, bafflement because you receive very harsh opinions which you really aren't ready for. They make you react to the thread in a similar way you react in your relationship but the posters are far more grounded than your enemy which allows you to learn.

Often, there's always a little windy path that allows you to search and discover. I can see this on your journey.

Take your time. Make some notes if you can privately. Keep this thread.

Read it when your head is in different places - not just when you're home and at the frontline.