Divorce, Brexit, relocation, am I selfish for not going?

[NotSelenaGomez]

I have 2dc, one at primary, one secondary. Been with dh 15 years, and honestly that last 1.5 - 2 years have been pretty dead in terms of our relationship with each other. I have filed for divorce and he has failed to respond to the papers he was served with. He accepts its over but does still tell me to just try a bit harder and that things could work out, I know they won’t, and have no desire to try anything. I’m slowly ploughing through the proceedings regardless of him. We get on well most of the time, and co-parent effectively. He is an EU national, and I’m a Brit – I love my country. He is pestering me to move to his country, Germany, and become resident before some date in December, as after that it won’t be so easy for me to live there. DC have dual nationality so they will be fine. I have told him I can’t go, I would be very unhappy there, we have lived there before, I hated it, I have a career but couldn’t work there as my language was not up to the very high standard the Germans wanted. I’d be leaving family, friends, social networks, a job and home that I love, my kids love their schools. Not to mention – why would I move away with someone I’m divorcing, WTH! He says I am selfish for putting my own happiness first, and above that of the children. That it would be better for the dc to live with both parents, in a safer society, with better schooling, better prospects, better healthcare etc. It annoys me when he says things like dc will fail in life because of my selfishness at making them like in a crap country where kids are in gangs and there is so much crime amongst youth. He also thinks we can continue living in a loveless marriage and should do so as a sacrifice for the kids needs of wanting us to be together. When I say no to all of this nonsense he endlessly tells me I am selfish and not putting the kids first. I just want to check that I am doing the right thing, and that I am not being selfish towards my kids, should I be sacrificing myself for them and staying with him? All thoughts welcome. Thank you.

Do not move! If you do you'll likely be, at best, stuck there until the kids leave school; moving back with them would be much more difficult as there would be custody issues in Germany. The quality if life argument doesn't work for me either. Germany's great, but your experience is that it is not better for you, and that might well be true for your kids, who also prob wont benefit from a move in addition to a divorce.
I question you husband's motives, tbh.

As someone who has just moved with her DH to Europe: don't do it.

It's really really tough. This has been a bit of a low point in our marriage. Immigration is stressful.

You would also be stuck because once the kids are settled in Germany you wouldn't be allowed to move them back to the UK. Unless you want to stay in Germany til your youngest is 18.

We have had a German National and Irish National divorce in our family. Once in Germany you will struggle to assert any rights through a German court system, struggle to get fair split of assets, will not be able to travel back to UK with children without permission, will have to fight everything in German.
Germany is not some utopia as you will know. Some areas still have very misogynistic views in their systems and certainly don't support separated mothers. The rural areas are very Conservative and the staying together for the children is still very prevalent because divorce is not acceptable and the Catholic Church is very influential.

Every person I know who has moved there has hated the ridged conformaty of their society and found huge cultural challenges, even with support and a job. Members of my family travel there alot and none would live there. My niece is German National and couldn't get past the language issues to get a job despite having a degree and living there. She had to go to night school, but wants out now anyway as she doesn't like living there.
I wouldn't do it and wouldn't advise anyone to do it.

People who think Germany is urban Berlin or trendy Hanover are well wrong. It's not safer than the uk and has just the same issues with urban violence etc.

And Germans well know that the system in Germany will be advantageous to German Nationals with regard to assets and child access. Unfortunately, I have seen these tactics a number of times in our community which has plenty of Germans married to Irish Nationals. They all want to move back to Germany because it is better for the children.

It only seems to be better when they are splitting from the mother.
And never underestimate how attached they are to their assets. Lot easier to protect when you are in a German Court system.

He is being selfish. Divorce itself is stressful and disruptive enough. Adding immigration into it is not going to make it easier for the dc, only make it an even bigger adjustment. Let them stay at their schools with their friends.

I love living in Germany but no way would I up sticks to move anywhere with someone who I wanted to divorce.

Your kids are settled and happy, you’re settled and happy. The only one who wants to move is him.

Why would 3 ppl uproot their entire lives and move country to make 1 person happy? How selfish must that 1 person be to demand it of the other 3?

One thing I would add to the above is to insist he adds the kids to his health insurance should he move back to Germany without them. They do have very good healthcare over there and it would be great if your kids had access to it.
His willingness to look into it will also prove how serious he is about their well-being...

Absolutely not.
Do not move to Germany with him.
The children stay in the UK with you. You get divorced. He can decide what he wants to do.

You would struggle with getting on in your career. It's really very difficult indeed even if you are completely fluent and can write German to a near native standard. They also believe that their degrees are worth more than UK degrees, are of better quality etc. If you don't have a masters they will look down on your bachelor degree. I am in a neighbouring, very similar country. A masters degree is standard, bachelor substandard.
If you wanted to be a teacher for example you'd have to re-do all of the qualifications in Germany. In fact I know an Austrian who is obviously a native German speak and she trained as a teacher in Austria but when she moved to Germany to live with her partner she had to do three years of teacher training as they would not accept the Austrian qualification.
That's what it's like there. Extremely strict rules about pretty much everything.
It isn't a utopia as some people seem to think. I also don't think their school and university system is as great as they make out either. Do not let your DH or anyone else for that matter guilt trip you about the children's education.
He's trying to manipulate you into staying with him.

dc will fail in life because of my selfishness at making them like in a crap country where kids are in gangs and there is so much crime amongst youth. He also thinks we can continue living in a loveless marriage and should do so as a sacrifice for the kids needs of wanting us to be together. When I say no to all of this nonsense he endlessly tells me I am selfish and not putting the kids first

So he thinks every child in Britain is a failure. They are all in gangs and going to get stabbed or beaten up.

Just wow.

He really thinks Germany is some sort of Eutopia where all children succeed.

As for living in a loveless marriage. That will do your children far more damage than divorced happy parents.

The only selfish one here is someone who is in complete denial that he doesn’t have a happy family and thinks even if the family isn’t happy it doesn’t matter as long as you are all under one roof in a foreign country.

Do not set foot in Germany whilst you are still married.
If you want to know how not being able to leave a country with your children turns out, there was a thread earlier on in the year where the poster was stuck in NZ with her children in a loveless marriage.

Whilst I would live in Germany in a heartbeat (were it not for elderly relatives) and make all efforts to attain the language skills required, I am not in the position of the OP. In her position given the impending divorce I would not. In any case I think the adjustment for the children would be massive.

Germany is not a utopia but it is not led by a Prime Minister who is a mass killer.

Funny how the U.K was good enough before your split.

I’m not familiar with Germany’s residency rules but here in the Netherlands, I had to have been a resident before the Brexit vote.

I suspect he’s bull shitting you so that he’ll have you over a barrel when in Germany. You’ve been there and got that particular t-shirt, no is a complete sentence.

I’m not familiar with Germany’s residency rules but here in the Netherlands, I had to have been a resident before the Brexit vote.

Really?
As I understood it we can claim rights of residency right up to the end of the transition period, ending 31st December 2020. ie. any Brit legally residing in another EU country before that date will be covered by the withdrawal agreement and therefore able to stay.
It's certainly the case in Germany and Austria.
This is why the OP's DH is trying to force her to move to Germany now. If she does so and is correctly registered before the 31st December 2020 she will be able to stay and have her rights protected.
But were she to do so and then decide that she could not bear living there she'd be up shit creek as there would be issues with bringing the children back.
He might even be trying to pull a fast one with regards to the divorce in some way. He might want to divorce under German law if it is in some way more beneficial to him.

I wouldn't trust him an inch.

Yes and yes again. Any German solicitor advising a German National on getting divorced to a non German national will first advice to be resident in Germany. This is why he is not engaging and why he is saying be in a loveless marriage in Germany.

This is absolutely the case. If you don't believe it please, please google getting divorced to a German National before you move. Listen to what people say.

What you think about divorce and child access is a UK perspective. This is not the same in Germany. You're uk solicitor will have no chance in Germany and a solicitor that speaks and understand your perspective in Germany will cost you a fortune.
Don't move.

@LannieDuck My parents were both this selfish. My two brothers and I spent 6 years of our childhood being dragged from one side of the world to the other because my Australian mother and UK bought up father both refused to settle in the opposite country.

Something I will never forgive either of them for.

It all started when I was 9. My father had been perfectly happy with Oz for nearly 11 years and then suddenly he wasn't.

Don't do it.

@KenDodd Why in the world should she change her entire life for a dead relationship?

and become resident before some date in December, as after that it won’t be so easy for me to live there
You may be aware of this, but just in case ... If you are living here in Germany before December but without German citizenship, then you have the right to stay here after December for an unlimited time - but only as long as you do not leave for more than 6 months (or 5? Not sure). If you left for longer, you would be in the same boat as any Brit coming over randomly. To get German citizenship and thus the permanent right to stay, you would have to stay here roughly 6 to 8 years without leaving for more than 6 months at a time.

The kids have dual nationality. You would only need the right to live long-term in Germany if the kids were going to live there in the long term.

Your dh presumably speaks English and has been working in the UK, so knows that he can make a living there. For you, it would be very hard. Your husband is hardly going to support you financially, is he? He is being massively unreasonable if not ridiculous to expect you to ruin your potential career and financial security.

He's not allowed to take the kids out of the country without your permission. It would be international child abduction and you would be able to force their return.

Like your husband, I chose to live in another country, and to settle down there and have children. We are also divorced now. The kids are adults. I'm still here because that's what was best for the children: not to move them out of their familiar environment. And because it was my decision to have children here.When you have children abroad, that's the risk you run, of being stuck there. I didn't take the kids away from their German dad, and of course I didn't tell him that he should move to a country where he didn't speak the language well enough to work, as he would have laughed in my face.

dc will fail in life because of my selfishness at making them like in a crap country where kids are in gangs and there is so much crime amongst youth

Lol. Germany doesn't have gangs?? Where do you live now? In a rough, inner city area? There's plenty of place in the U.K that aren't quite urban rough & ready as you now might live in.

Also, in this case, I'm pretty sure if this went to custody courts you would win. The children already live here, they're in school here, you have a job (not essential but it might help).

I agree with everyone here. Don't move. Not in this kind of situation.

Stay here. His request is ridiculous.

You have to think what does he get if you pack your bags and move to Germany. What do you get that you couldn’t have if you stayed.

He gets to live in his home country

He gets to be near his family

He gets to keep his children under the same roof as him

He gets to keep his wife and not get a divorce.

You get to live trapped and unhappy in a country you don’t like.
Unable to divorce and leave without losing your children.

Life is too short to spend it being unhappy.

Don’t set foot in Germany till you are well and truly divorced.

very true Oliversmumsarmy 🌺