Gaslighting - always intentional?

[fourplusfour]

Just that really. Is gaslighting always done purposefully or do some people behave that way without meaning to upset or confuse?

For some I think its just their way of going about things. What they consider to be true is in their minds even if you have solid evidence to the contrary.

It's perfectly normal, if you're an abusive person, if not, then no it's not normal.

But it's not something people do accidentally.................

That's kind of what I think. That some people just have their own truths, that they are not intentionally manipulating the situation. Just interest in others take on this.

I think it depends. Some people are just naturally two-faced manipulators, some need to work at it.

Gaslighting is where someone deliberately tries to make you question reality.

I think the most important thing to focus on is that normal people don't gaslight. Full stop. Abusers do.

Perhaps the odd rare exception when maybe you're halfway through an argument and realise you are wrong...but carry on regardless because theres no backtracking now xD but that should be a rare event.

If someone constantly gaslights and bullshits then they arent a nice person and they do not mean good things for you.

They know exactly what they're doing.

It depends. I think sometimes with alcoholics and addicts they gaslight people because they are in such deep denial themselves they have lost track of the truth completely themselves and are basically insane themselves. But with most abusers it's 100% intentional yes.

I think, as pp says, gaslighting is by definition deliberate deception. However, I think some people have their own versions of reality which make them seem like liars. For example, I had an ex who would sometimes say that he hadn't done anything or seen anyone all week when actually he had. i think his perception of his life was that it was dull and boring and nothing ever happened and therefore he just seemed to forget that, for example, he'd met a mate for a beer earlier in the week. It wasn't that he was trying to hide things from me as he'd tell me one thing and then later openly say something which completely contradicted it. This was just one of many reasons he's an ex.

@ZarasHouse

It depends. I think sometimes with alcoholics and addicts they gaslight people because they are in such deep denial themselves they have lost track of the truth completely themselves and are basically insane themselves. But with most abusers it's 100% intentional yes.

This is also what I think from having known all-out liars manipulating me for their gain and also having alcoholic relatives.

Lying isn't gaslighting.

Gaslighting is where you try to make another person question reality and therefore their sanity. It would be gaslighting if you had had lunch with your boyfriend every day this week and then said, 'Remember when we had lunch yesterday -' And he says, 'We didn't have lunch yesterday.' And carries on convincing you that you dreamed it all up because you're imagining things. They continue to do that until you have no idea of what side is up.

A gaslighting abuser will punch you in the face and then ask you why you're rubbing your face because he hasn't touched you and, after a while, you believe him and wonder why your face hurts.

I think the insistence on here that abusers always intend to be abusive, or are all narcissists, is unhelpful.

It's certainly possible (speaking from personal experience) that someone who themselves was damaged by all kinds of unhealthy ways of relating growing up, instinctively and unconsciously replicates those as an adult. They can be a decent person in many other ways - but unfortunately not in their intimate relationships.

It's still abuse. But it's harder to put your finger on, and harder to leave, because it makes you feel they're fixable, and that it's not their fault. It possibly isn't, and they probably are more able to address it than someone who does it on purpose, but the reality is that it would be a massive and painful journey, and one that would require them to actively engage with professional support over a long period of time. Not many abusers are up for that.

@safeordangerous

For some I think its just their way of going about things. What they consider to be true is in their minds even if you have solid evidence to the contrary.

I don't think this subject can be covered by simple explanations. I know someone who gaslights and he does not know he is doing it. He just can't help himself. He believes what he is saying and thinks the comments are helpful

Sorry safeordangerous, I meant to add that I agree with your comment

I don't think this subject can be covered by simple explanations. I know someone who gaslights and he does not know he is doing it. He just can't help himself. He believes what he is saying and thinks the comments are helpful

Can you give an example of what he does?

Sorry pp but wanting you to think he genuinely means to help is PART of the gaslighting.

My dad does it, and I accept it’s a form of neglectful abuse, but in his case it’s not active and deliberate abuse.

He says thing, usually about what he wants to do (to right a wrong ime) but if asked at a later date, he makes out that you’ve made it up, got it wrong, you’re exaggerating. He can’t face the fact that he’s unable to follow through so he does this to save face.

I grew up with this and it’s horribly damaging and destabilising, whether deliberate it not. It’s different I think to the type of cruelty where someone’s trying to drive you mad.

No. They do not understand. Perhaps this is one of the hardest things to understand; they do not think like us.

Their minds will not allow them to acknowledge that lying is wrong.

But that is what gaslighting IS. It's derived from a film called Gaslight where a man tried to make out his wife was mad and what she was seeing wasn't true.

You can't just decide that the meaning is 'too cruel' and therefore doesn't apply.

@netsybetsy it's mostly alcoholics I have met who gaslight due to denial, but also seen it in a gambler, a manic depressive and a compulsive shopper. I'm not sure it's exactly the same as gaslighting though. It's more like they are sharing their delusion. Whereas with the gaslighting you see with abusers it's entirely intentional. Then you get the people who are both alcoholic and abusive and that's a whole other kettle of fish and like dealing with a toddler who would claim the sky is purple

I guess the purpose is different. Abusers want to make you go mad so they can control you and alcoholics do it so that you will continue to enable them.

Addicts in denial aren't gaslighting you; they're just manipulative liars.

@username105

Yeah I realised half way though that that it's not actual gaslighting. And that gaslighting by its very definition is always intentional. Sorry for any confusion caused!

Someone who genuinely forgets or misconstrues things is not gaslighting though. Gaslighting is normally used to excuse or cover actions or behaviour. To this end it is always intentional. The confusion could lie in the effect of gaslighting. The person doing it does not always wish to cause mental confusion or damage to the victim, but it can lead to this outcome regardless.

With my dad, his behaviour absolutely fuels his self-image as the only one with a grasp of reality. So he says things without care, and makes out you’re mad when he can’t later accept that he has to follow through. Ok it’s not technically Gaslighting as in the film. What is it?