Gaslighting - always intentional?

[fourplusfour]

Just that really. Is gaslighting always done purposefully or do some people behave that way without meaning to upset or confuse?

No. I think it's just the way my exh saw the world and me. He is so self absorbed everything was about him and if I challenged that I became the enemy. He never saw his behaviour for what it was

@Appledaze

Someone who genuinely forgets or misconstrues things is not gaslighting though. Gaslighting is normally used to excuse or cover actions or behaviour. To this end it is always intentional. The confusion could lie in the effect of gaslighting. The person doing it does not always wish to cause mental confusion or damage to the victim, but it can lead to this outcome regardless.

No, someone with dementia or psychosis isn't gaslighting you. Someone who is very forgetful isn't gaslighting you either. They may genuinely forget something. I've done that loads of times and it's certainly not deliberate, I may just have completely forgotten.

Gaslighting is deliberate. I remember a woman on here last year and her partner had just slammed her head into the radiator. She said the 'radiator had somehow got in the way of her head'. That's gaslighting.

@nibdedibble

With my dad, his behaviour absolutely fuels his self-image as the only one with a grasp of reality. So he says things without care, and makes out you’re mad when he can’t later accept that he has to follow through. Ok it’s not technically Gaslighting as in the film. What is it?

Sounds like gaslighting to me if his intention is to make you question your own sense of reality.

@username105 I think your examples are far too extreme, gaslighting is far more subtle and manipulative than that. After all no woman would think or believe she hadn't been punched in the face if she had, regardless of what the perpetrator said.

One example I can think of. My ex always thought of himself a victim of my controlling ways and wanted to demonstrate to others how I bullied him. I needed to get out urgently as I was running late. I asked him to move his car as it was blocking mine in. He strolled out and caught sight of our neighbour and started to chat to her. I called out.. can you move your car please. He ignored me and started to walk towards our neighbour. I called out louder as he was 5 metres away. Can you move your car please! He shrugged and moved his car and I drove off.

The sub plot of this was to demonstrate to the neighbour how unreasonable and domineering I was by shouting at him in the street. He said later I 'shouted' at him. I know I didn't. I know he was trying to make me look bad in front of the neighbour. He wanted me to get angry in front of the neighbour. He wanted me to shout, and said I did even though I didn't. Of course I later asked myself, did I really 'shout' louder than I though I did? Did I look bad in front of the neighbour? He certainly said I did. So much so I began to think I'd looked a bitch and next time (even if it made me late) I would say nothing.

That's how gaslighting works, not punching people in the face.

@tornadoalley but I've heard women say the exact same thing to me after years of gaslighting by their abusers. I've also heard Adult Children say the same thing to me about their parents or other abusers as they were growing up. Please don't tell me what I have heard and witnessed isn't true.

@username105 You may have been told this but it's far too extreme an example. Did those women actually believe they hadn't been punched? Of course not. True gaslighting is far more subtle, which you would know if you had seen the film. The perpetrator in Gaslight isn't overtly aggressive or violent and manipulated in a subtle way, so that his victim believes what she's told. No one is going to believe they weren't punched when they clearly were. What you describe is such a high degree of fear and control over them they accept what said to them without question. Accepting it is not the same as believing it. If their perpetrator says, you wound me up by criticising xyz, and it's your fault I punched you, that is far more likely to be believed by the victim, because they know they did try to bring up a difficult subject. It's about creating confusion in the victims mind.

The point is the victim must believe what's being said to them. If my ex had told me I didn't have lunch with him the previous day I would have thought he was delusional, not me.

Your examples are simple domestic violence and a complete denial of responsibility

@tornadoalley can you explain how your first example is gaslighting as I don't see it.

@username105 My exH told me I was shouting at him angrily because he didn't move his car out of the way of my car (it was blocking me in). He said I was shouting in front of the neighbour and it it made me look bad and made him look like I was bullying him. He entirely manufactured the situation, by walking off to talk to the neighbour when he knew I was late for an appointment. He hoped I would get very angry (which I didn't). He made me doubt myself and think I had shouted, when in fact all I'd done was speak louder because he was getting further away. To this day I wonder, did the neighbour think I was shouting at him? Did I speak louder than I think I did and actually shout angrily? I know exactly what I said but did I shout and look like a bad tempered bitch? After all you can't actually hear how loud you are as you're not the one hearing what's said!

It's designed to mess with your perception of reality and doubt yourself.

No. In the vast majority of cases, gaslightimg ISN'T intentional.

Most narcs live in the now. When gaslighting occurs, it isnt purposely thought of. It's the way the NPD mind bends to accommodate their own NPD. Which they unaware of!

And the COMPLETELY deny it. Moreover, they believe it too.

It's not easy to explain. But essentially the answer to the OPs question is, no, they are not aware.

Christ, being gaslit about gaslighting now.

You're talking specifically about a personality disorder. Not all gaslighters have personality disorders. You sound VERY certain of yourself with no evidence.

Gaslighting to me was having him beg me to make him a cup of tea, watching me make it, then screaming and slamming doors because he said he had wanted coffee until I started crying and apologising to him for being so stupid. I truly believed it was my fault for years for not hearing him properly until many years later I learnt what gaslighting was.

I later remembered that I was upset with him over something just before this. Whether the gaslighting was intentional or just a part of him planning a scenario where he could be the one angry at me instead, I don't know. Maybe it was just an added bonus but it still hurt and I still had to face the emotional turmoil it creates.

Gaslighting to me was having him beg me to make him a cup of tea, watching me make it, then screaming and slamming doors because he said he had wanted coffee until I started crying and apologising to him for being so stupid. I truly believed it was my fault for years

That is gaslighting. I'm sorry you went through it, it's horrendous.

[quote ZarasHouse]@netsybetsy it's mostly alcoholics I have met who gaslight due to denial, but also seen it in a gambler, a manic depressive and a compulsive shopper. I'm not sure it's exactly the same as gaslighting though. It's more like they are sharing their delusion. Whereas with the gaslighting you see with abusers it's entirely intentional. Then you get the people who are both alcoholic and abusive and that's a whole other kettle of fish and like dealing with a toddler who would claim the sky is purple [/quote]
Oh yes, I hear you! It's a nightmare isn't it? I had to learn a lot about my codependence and an alcoholic relative I was trying to "save" a few years back.

I am in a much healthier place mentally. My relative continues to get worse but I cannot change them as they refuse to change and get aggressive with anyone who tries.

I feel at peace with it all while knowing I will be heartbroken if something awful happens to them.

My friends arsehole ex did things like turning some of the pictures of them in their flat around after a row so they were facing the wrong way then sat her down and asked why she had done it.

He was really quiet and calm as if he was worried. You're forgetting stuff etc. He called her mum over and said that they were "all really worried about her" so that when he got progressively more and more nasty, my mate )and her family) thought she was getting confused or exaggerating as she'd clearly gone mad. She literally thought herself that she had gone mad.

It started with gaslighting and it was quiet, consistent, deliberate so it crept up on her and those around her.

God I hate him still.

@username105
@tornadoalley

I think both your examples can be correct its just a question of how far the abuse of the victim has gone.

@tornadoally, yes I completely agree that was setting up the construct of you being a bully to the outside world, all premeditated.

Its when you've had years of this 'lower' level of gaslighting that some victims fight back and question the construct.

Takes enormous strength to question this reality and usually the gaslighting will be ramped up to what others would think to be ridiculous to believe but it definetely happens.

Being beaten and then being told , I can,t have done this I,m such a good guy, it was an accident, you must have tripped onto that radiator, I hardly touched you.

Look I,m not even going to say sorry or console you thats how sure I am that It wasn,t me that hurt you.

Believe me there are no bounds to how far narcs can deny their actions, and change the view of what experience you have just gone through.

But yes I do think all gaslighting is done intentionally.
Small or big the outcome is the same.

@newnameforthis123

Gaslighting to me is on a spectrum, although never good , it ranges from bad to awful....and what your friend has experienced is awful. Along with some other PPs in this thread. It makes me feel sad that people are capable of this level of abuse.

Because it is abuse. It is unfathomable to me. .

@Onthedunes I understand what you are saying, but genuine gaslighting, as was seen in the film, and as described by psychologists, doesn't involve outright violence. There is only mention of manipulation, cognitive dissonance, denial, misinformation, sewing the seeds of doubt in the victims mind, and similar behaviours. By the time it's tipped into physical violence towards the victim it's not truly gaslighting but domestic violence. What the perpetrator says to his victim isn't relevant because it's gone beyond the bounds of making the victim believe it didn't happen, which is what gaslighting is all about. Instead they will say 'you made me do it'. 'You wanted me to hit you', 'you provoked me to hit you'....so they shift the emphasis away from the actual violence, because even the most abused person in the world, knows someone has punched them in the face.

Gaslighting is about making the victim believe something happened that didn't happen.

But yes, 'lower' level gaslighting will often lead to outright violence, because the victim often starts to realise it isn't them, but the perpetrator and they begin to challenge them. I know this from experience and know that's when it escalates. 'Lower' level gaslighting is as damaging to the psyche of the victim as out and out violence, because it destroys self esteem and trust in people.

My exH psychiatrist said to me words can hurt more than fists. At the time I didn't agree with her as my H didn't hit me then, but now I'm not so sure.

[quote Appledaze]@newnameforthis123

Gaslighting to me is on a spectrum, although never good , it ranges from bad to awful....and what your friend has experienced is awful. Along with some other PPs in this thread. It makes me feel sad that people are capable of this level of abuse.

Because it is abuse. It is unfathomable to me. .[/quote]
Totally agree, and until you've had it happen I can understand it's unfathomable that someone can make you feel unsure of things that seem so clear cut. So sad so many of us have been through it. I saw an ex kiss someone two years in and he convinced me I was pissed, imagined it, was horrible for thinking that of him, had embarrassed him by crying etc. Same guy begged me to come join a night out with his friends who I got on with. They later told me after I arrived (and gave him my card to buy a round, that he took credit for) he said to everyone he was so sorry I had turned up unannounced and that he had already split with me but I wouldn't accept it and was really low so to not mention it to me... uuuugh. Can't believe I fell for his bullshit for so long. He genuinely got off on making me think I was crazy. A counsellor I saw afterwards was great, she said to stop fixating on how / why he could do these things and start focusing on why I accepted it for so long. Really stayed with me and helped loads.

@tornadoalley you're right in the sense that gaslighting doesn't mean physical violence. It's a way of getting someone to doubt their own reality. You've seen two examples of that in this thread; one is where the abuser insisted that he had asked for coffee instead of tea and the victim was begging forgiveness. The second, where photos were turned back on a wall and the victim was told that she'd done it even though she hadn't.

Those are very clear examples of someone trying to erode and undermine someone else's reality.

What I was talking about was cases of domestic abuse, where someone's sense of reality has been eroded so much after decades of gaslighting, that they no longer trust their own judgement. I explained that a woman had said a radiator somehow got in the way of her head because that's what her abuser told her had happened. She believed it as he had eroded her sense of reality over years.

The radiator didn't get in the way of her head. He smashed her head against the radiator. That's gaslighting. It makes you feel as though you can't trust yourself or what you are seeing in front of your eyes because there is someone there constantly telling you that you're wrong and they are right.

Turning off the oven and then turning it back on again. Saying they're going to do something, not doing it and they denying they said it. Hiding your phone and making out you're really scatty and forgetful because you're always losing your things when they're hiding them. If an abusive relationship does escalate to physical violence, then they tell you that the violence didn't happen or act as though it hasn't happened or that you did it to yourself.

@username105

It's a way of getting someone to doubt their own reality.

This is such a good description to explain it to people who haven't been through it, I'll remember that one thank you!

Some people actually start recording all conversations because gaslighting has got so bad, that they can't trust they've heard something correctly. When you start needing to record conversations, run.

I don't know if what DH does is trying to get me to feel crazy and doubt my reality, that's the end result but I don't know if that's what he's aiming to do if that makes sense. Things like if I'm trying to stand up for myself or the kids and being firm in sticking to my position, he'll start saying things like "don't yell at me or don't speak to me like that or mummies getting really angry," this is things he does in front of the kids. And I know I'm not angry or yelling, but part of me is always questioning that if he's right and I'm really some angry person who yells. It shuts me down.

Than theirs other examples, which might just be manipulation like saying its my fault he has to catch the bus to work because I won't let him have the car. He's gotten angry about it multiple times in arguments. But whenever I suggest he takes the car or we share the car or get another one he tells me it's to expensive to park in the cbd so no point. He's tied me in knots blaming me for supposedly not letting him do something he doesn't want to do anyway. I can see the truth written in black and white and yet when he's telling me it's my fault I can't hang onto the truth, he's so convinced and convincing. But I'm not sure he's aiming to mess with my mind more it's yo get what he wants.

@AlreadyGone44

I don't know if what DH does is trying to get me to feel crazy and doubt my reality, that's the end result but I don't know if that's what he's aiming to do if that makes sense. Things like if I'm trying to stand up for myself or the kids and being firm in sticking to my position, he'll start saying things like "don't yell at me or don't speak to me like that or mummies getting really angry," this is things he does in front of the kids. And I know I'm not angry or yelling, but part of me is always questioning that if he's right and I'm really some angry person who yells. It shuts me down.

Than theirs other examples, which might just be manipulation like saying its my fault he has to catch the bus to work because I won't let him have the car. He's gotten angry about it multiple times in arguments. But whenever I suggest he takes the car or we share the car or get another one he tells me it's to expensive to park in the cbd so no point. He's tied me in knots blaming me for supposedly not letting him do something he doesn't want to do anyway. I can see the truth written in black and white and yet when he's telling me it's my fault I can't hang onto the truth, he's so convinced and convincing. But I'm not sure he's aiming to mess with my mind more it's yo get what he wants.

Whether it's gaslighting or 'just' manipulation, it's cruel and unhealthy for you and your kids. They're learning this is normal. It isn't. The longer you stay the more likely they are to replicate this behaviour in their own relationships as adults. I know you wouldn't want that for them. If you can't leave for you, leave for them.

@tornadoalley

"Gaslighting is about making the victim believe something happened that didn't happen"

Or .... Gaslighting is about making the victim believe something didn't happen when it did.

And they do, even within the context of domestic violence.