Can you tell me what this behaviour is called?

[thelegohooverer]

I’m trying to get my head around something that goes on in DH’s family.

Mil has form for saying things that are demonstrably untrue. The most recent example was declaring “we [her and fil] go nowhere anymore except the supermarket and mass” in the context of stating how careful they are being about covid 19.
In the last week she’s also got her hair cut, played golf several times, visited a dying relative, attended her funeral with 50 or so people, entertained various family members in her home, hovered over four tradesmen to give them tea and sandwiches in her kitchen, shared a car with relative for several hours, and gone to restaurants for meals. None of this is a secret; she has told me and others these things openly. Yet she also claims to be going nowhere except for essential groceries and mass.

I don’t want to get into judgement about the covid stuff, as it’s just an example.

I know it’s lying, but it feels like there’s something else going on that I’m struggling to name. If I said this, I’d know I was telling a whopper, but I’m not sure if she does. Or if she does, why she’s doing it.

The thing that really perplexed me is how her adult children, including my dh, seem to be sort of hypnotised (well not really, but again I don’t know what to call this), and will repeat these things with the same conviction that she does.

They’re all normally intelligent, rational people in other respects.

There are numerous other examples of this kind of thing in the family where they all nod and agree about statements that are clearly at odds with reality. A relatively benign one is how they all talk about how their df never stops working, and is always busy and doing things, and he just can’t sit still. In the 15 years I’ve been in the family I’ve only once seen him working (in the garden) a handful of times but seen him sunbathing, snoozing, reading the paper, watching tv, and playing golf, browsing on his tablet for hours on end.

Again, I’m not begrudging him any of this but I find it really puzzling how the family all agree on an alternative version of the reality in front of them.

Even the way they have these conversations is slightly odd. It’s like they’re getting some sort of reassurance or validation from each other.

Privately I think of it as “propaganda”. But I’m trying to figure out what is actually at play here. I thought it might be gaslighting, but I don’t think that’s quite it either.

I don’t challenge this kind of thing, so I don’t think I’m triggering it, or it’s a response to me pointing stuff out or being judgemental eg about the covid thing. I tend to keep my head down and be as unobtrusive as possible, and neutral.

I don’t want to get into the wider family issues and impact on our marriage or this would be a long post. Suffice to say it’s not a light hearted post.

Has anyone encountered anything similar? Or have any wisdom to share?

I don't have any wisdom to impart except that it sounds very weird! And that sometimes family dynamics are obvious to an outsider that have built up in layers of complexity over many years within the family and so are not so clear to the family themselves. What does your DH say when you query it? Does he admit that these statements are not true?

There are many cognitive biases which are basically things your monkey brain takes over and does and then feeds an explanation into the system that makes no sense. Everyone has an identity which is how they see themselves, usually includes things like i am not a thief, not a liar, wouldn't put people's lives at risk, care about other people, etc etc everyone's is different.
The problem comes when something gets in the way of that, eg you found a pound change left in the self scan that's not stealing it is only a pound. Not so much for a twenty it would be too hard for most people to square up
Everyone has their limits of what they can justify, it's called cognitive dissonance, but you can vary the size of the elasticIf you've stretched it enough.
You have pretty much read out the list of things that your husband's family identify themselves as, and their elastic is pretty stretchy, all to allow them to do their stuff while somehow maintaining their contradictory identity. But with years of training by the sounds of it, it has been normalised.
It's not unique to their family, everyone does it to some degree, that is the cause of problems like"I'm not sexist but women are better at looking after children"not many people identify as sexist but do an implicit bias test and you'll find you and everyone else are.
Hope that helps.

Ps typed on a tiny phone screen so i couldn't really see what i was typing due to the size of the keyboard and the advert!

Sounds like they are all Very conditioned into playing very set ‘roles’ within the family dynamic.

It sounds quite controlling actually, like the MIL says ‘this is how it is’ and everyone agrees / falls in line, because they are afraid to speak up (after years of it?!).

It’s sort of making me think of the children’s fairytale - The Emperor's New Clothes

This is interesting as it describes my ILs exactly. DH and I call it the "family narrative" but I don't think that's an official term.

It seems that however much contrary evidence there is, it just doesn't go into their heads and they cling to their false narratives. It's totally bizarre.

My in-laws have a similar dynamic. MIL might contradict herself all the time ("Only bad parents leave kids under 15 home alone" and then mere 2 minutes later "Oh I left DS home when he was 5 and sick with mumps, he said he'd be fine and besides I didn't want to take time off") but everyone kind of parrots the things she wants to hear.

They also have very set roles for their kids where DH is the black sheep and BIL the golden child. BIL drinks a lot, DH is a teetotaller. One year at Christmas BIL drank too much and vomited in the sink. MIL and FIL blamed DH because "BIL would never". What astonished me was that DH didn't really even defend himself.

Thanks for your replies. Lots to consider.

It seems that however much contrary evidence there is, it just doesn't go into their heads and they cling to their false narratives. It's totally bizarre
That’s it exactly.

What does your DH say when you query it? Does he admit that these statements are not true?
15 years now, he can hear it if I spell it out. He’s not as enmeshed as he was, but without me pointing out the discrepancies it just slides right off.
I don’t push it with him.

Dollyrocket It sounds quite controlling actually, like the MIL says ‘this is how it is’ and everyone agrees / falls in line, because they are afraid to speak up (after years of it?!)
Definitely. And it is dangerous to go against mil. Although they all seem to feel that their df is the controlling one.
I don’t want to completely dismiss their POV, because obviously they’ve lived in this family and I’m an outsider.

Not rocking the boat for fear of the waves?

@johnd2 I need to think more about this when I’m not so sleepy. I can’t understand why their cognitive dissonance doesn’t kick in, or what would be necessary to make it kick in. None of them seem to be as “elastic” in other circumstances.

The women in the family have had psychiatric breakdowns. Dh and bil aren’t as obviously effected though bil’s relationships break down. I suspect that the sexist division of labour in their upbringing brought the boys under the influence of their father more. But sometimes I feel like I’m waiting on a time bomb.

@Kettlingur that’s interesting about the different roles.

It's a form of control and delusion. I have family members and an ex-old childhood family friend like this. I often fall out with close and extended family members, as I refuse to play along and always call them out on their BS. They're all narcissists.

Oh yes, in DH's family they talk about 'middle child syndrome' and the middle children (DH and his nephew) are both held up as examples of how middle children are wrong'uns.

Nothing to do with both of them having an older brother who's the son and heir then, and a younger sister who's the baby of the family and the adored precious litlle girl.

Nothing to do with both of them having basically been completely ignored throughout their entire childhoods.

The onlooker sees most of the game, and until I pointed this out to DH, he had no idea. He thought he was the problem.

That's another red flag - calling grown men with issues 'the boys'. My uncles are referred to as 'the boys' by my Grandmother, my Mother and my Aunts.

@morriseysquif it’s a bit more than that, I think. I mean I definitely avoid rocking the boat, but I know I’m doing it.
They seem to suspend critical thinking and buy into the bs.

The weird thing is that they can be fairly critical of her among themselves. And of their family experience. But they still do this weird thing where they can’t perceive the contradiction.

And they will argue and disagree with their dm. It’s actually quite hard to pinpoint the problem.

Again, thanks for the replies. It’s very helpful to discuss it.
Going to sleep on it now 😴

More similarities. One of my Aunts has been on the knife edge of a mental health breakdown for several years. She's complained about being ignored as a child for decades. And MH issues with other family members too. Obvious to me and others, but they don't want to name it or talk about their possible MH issues. Too many children in one family and not the right type and/or amount of parental input.

Let's talk basics: the degree to which people/ a family is open and honest and able to cope with unexpected is surely the degree to which it is loving, supportive and healthy.

I'd wonder what they've been conditioned to hide.

Sounds like good old virtue signalling with a unhelpful side of denial.

You cannot speak the truth in my family either. Follow your assigned role. Speak out and you are making it up.

Family dynamics eh? We are the opposite to this in my house. Reality is allowed. BS is called out.

@BubblyBluePebbles I’m envious. I think if I didn’t come from my own dysfunctional background I’d have run a mile. DH had a string of broken relationships and was deeply appreciative that I was tolerant of his difficult family, and that was sort of moulded into the heart of our relationship. I already had years of practice at tiptoeing (except in my family there isn’t this reality changing matrix thing going on).

@AugustBreeze I don’t think that there’s anything sinister. But it’s certainly thought provoking.

@chickenyhead virtue signalling comes into it alright. Sometimes I wonder if mil’s narrative keeps changing because she’s constantly seeking approval, trying on different identities/realities.

She’s definitely controlling at a very deep level but on the surface of things, her adult children can be openly defiant, ignoring her requests so she repeats herself several times , talking over her, and other things. It makes their vulnerability to her truth bending all the more puzzling.

It’s as if there’s a “party line” that everyone has to toe. Which keeps leading me back to @AugustBreeze

My mum does this my dad and my sister make up stuff and my mum believes it as gospel. My dad regularly makes up ‘facts’ that ‘some expert’ on the news said and will speak with so fervently about it that I genuinely think he believes his own lies. I’ll admit I believed them too until I went to a party and argued one of my dad’s lies to someone who actually knew what they were talking about . When we got home my partner gently pointed out that many of his facts were actually bullshit.

Be of the weirdest ones was when my sister said that a county in England didn’t exist. I had driven through it on a trip a few days previously and was talking about how beautiful it was. Apparently ‘it only existed in Anglo Saxon times and now it’s another county all the way across’. My parents just sat there and nodded, when I said that she was wrong they told me off like I was a child for being argumentative. I could have easily googled and proved them all wrong but I was too gobsmacked. It’s like they’re so entrenched in the idea that my dad and sister are the smart ones that literally nothing they say can be wrong. It’s bizarre.

I would agree that it’s a control thing my dad is very controlling, everything has to be done his way. My mum seems to live in constant rose coloured glasses and genuinely finds it difficult to remember times when my dad has Flown off the handle. My sister can be genuinely scary sometimes too. Although I really feel with my sister that she tries to keep a handle in her temper and finds it a struggle.

perhaps they just want to keep the piece and dont want to argue with her.

My mother does it. She once said how proud she was of my middle sister for being the only one to leave home after uni, the rest of us all came home.
Except I left home at 18, my other sister moved to Edinburgh right after uni and one of my brothers got a job straight from school and went to live in. When I pointed this out she told me I was jealous and lying. She had actually moved to another country when I was 18, that I've never lived in, so I don't know how she thinks I went home.

my dm told a story how she sat on the bench very recently with a couple of club friends, and then moved away because they made a joke about germs.
but she told my dd 20 minutes later, that they moved away from her!

i think some people just talk for the sake of it, it might be untrue but it is their conversation.

My MIL is exactly the same and her daughters act like an echo chamber. My DH calls them out on it sometimes when it annoys him too much, but usually waits until they’re gone and says “what was all that nonsense?” I guess it doesn’t bother me too much as he doesn’t buy into it. They also have the family roles - they’re so bought into him being his 12 yr old self that that can’t see what he actually is.