Can you tell me what this behaviour is called?

[thelegohooverer]

I’m trying to get my head around something that goes on in DH’s family.

Mil has form for saying things that are demonstrably untrue. The most recent example was declaring “we [her and fil] go nowhere anymore except the supermarket and mass” in the context of stating how careful they are being about covid 19.
In the last week she’s also got her hair cut, played golf several times, visited a dying relative, attended her funeral with 50 or so people, entertained various family members in her home, hovered over four tradesmen to give them tea and sandwiches in her kitchen, shared a car with relative for several hours, and gone to restaurants for meals. None of this is a secret; she has told me and others these things openly. Yet she also claims to be going nowhere except for essential groceries and mass.

I don’t want to get into judgement about the covid stuff, as it’s just an example.

I know it’s lying, but it feels like there’s something else going on that I’m struggling to name. If I said this, I’d know I was telling a whopper, but I’m not sure if she does. Or if she does, why she’s doing it.

The thing that really perplexed me is how her adult children, including my dh, seem to be sort of hypnotised (well not really, but again I don’t know what to call this), and will repeat these things with the same conviction that she does.

They’re all normally intelligent, rational people in other respects.

There are numerous other examples of this kind of thing in the family where they all nod and agree about statements that are clearly at odds with reality. A relatively benign one is how they all talk about how their df never stops working, and is always busy and doing things, and he just can’t sit still. In the 15 years I’ve been in the family I’ve only once seen him working (in the garden) a handful of times but seen him sunbathing, snoozing, reading the paper, watching tv, and playing golf, browsing on his tablet for hours on end.

Again, I’m not begrudging him any of this but I find it really puzzling how the family all agree on an alternative version of the reality in front of them.

Even the way they have these conversations is slightly odd. It’s like they’re getting some sort of reassurance or validation from each other.

Privately I think of it as “propaganda”. But I’m trying to figure out what is actually at play here. I thought it might be gaslighting, but I don’t think that’s quite it either.

I don’t challenge this kind of thing, so I don’t think I’m triggering it, or it’s a response to me pointing stuff out or being judgemental eg about the covid thing. I tend to keep my head down and be as unobtrusive as possible, and neutral.

I don’t want to get into the wider family issues and impact on our marriage or this would be a long post. Suffice to say it’s not a light hearted post.

Has anyone encountered anything similar? Or have any wisdom to share?

Oh my word I'm so glad I have found this thread

My MIL is exactly the same. She is a highly qualified nurse and so very clever, but just makes up her own version of things. Luckily DH is award and just ignores her

Most recently we flew to the Canary Islands and then it went onto the quarantine list, to which she said "just tell the border control man that the virus isn't bad there and he will let you in without quarantine"

Well no, because that wouldn't happen quite clearly.

I'm not a psychologist but have dredged something out of the back of my mind. There's something called "folie à deux" that might be relevant. (Obviously what you describe involves more than two people and maybe isn't as extreme as this diagnosis, but it's basically the idea of a shared delusion or psychosis.)

I came on here to say family narrative too but others have already said it. I had some therapy a couple of years ago to try and get to the bottom of my imposter syndrome. It was fascinating. She helped me identify that my parents narrative was that I was a disappointment/failure/would never amount to anything and my golden child sister was clever/a high achiever.

I didn't do great at school. I've latterly realised after my son's ADHD diagnosis that I also have ADD (no H!) so I was constantly distracted and daydreaming rather than thick/lazy. I've actually ended up doing well in my career - I'm a partner in a law firm - my sister does a poorly paid part time job. My parents actually seen annoyed that I've done well and will never mention/acknowledge anything about my career. They will however crow on about what a wonderful mother my sister is and how brilliantly she has brought up her children and not farmed them out to full time nursery like mine

My success doesn't fit their narrative so they've bent the facts to fit the narrative of golden child/failure. I think they can only cope with this kind of interpretation. It happens in a lot of families I have noticed.

Fascinating thread , I can fully identify. My mum lives in a fantasy world of lies . I used to let it go , I don't now . I gently correct her & she pretends I haven't spoken . Works for us 😳

I think people who lie compulsively have had some sort of childhood trauma and they do it to make themselves feel "better" in some way - more confident, calmer, more important, less culpable, etc.

It’s a “martyr complex”. She twists the truth to make it sound like she’s suffering so she gets more sympathy

It’s sadly comforting to hear that other families do this. I’m not wishing it on anyone, but it helps a bit to know it’s not unique iykwim
@Notverybright it has been really problematic at times when dh can u turn on a decision we’ve discussed and researched because his dm made a contradictory comment based on nothing but her whim of the moment.

Once she told him that dd wasn’t running a temperature (She was over 38), another time she insisted that dd hadn’t hurt herself and was making it up when she had in fact dislocated her elbow joint. Both times I had to force the issue with him because what his mum says over rides the evidence in front of his eyes. He’s not stupid, or callous. It’s completely at odds with who he is otherwise.

Well that sounds pretty dangerous- thank god you were there!

It’s so difficult to unpick isn’t it. Is she aware that she can make him believe anything she says and it’s some kind of power trip for her? Or is she not aware of what she’s doing and fully believes her lies.

It literally took me being publicly humiliated by one of my dad’s lies for the scales to fall. Maybe try that with your Dh .

I used to get in blazing rows with my family about this stuff, but since the kids came along I tend to try and avoid getting into these situations in the first place or changing the subject quickly when these things come up (not always easy) I have lowered contact a fair bit but it still would be quite high contact for lots of families.

I think that what a family dynamic like that might be trying to "hide" doesn't need to be anything illegal or obviously immoral. However it can be just as damaging for those affected. Something which has maybe grown out of some form of abuse by the previous generation? Human beings compensate for things in strange ways and build all kinds of weird defence mechanisms.

It sounds rather Orwellian, as if MIL is Big Brother and whatever she says must be reality or else the person who disagrees will become a Nonperson and cease to exist. But it's at such a subconscious level none of them realize that they're doing it. The idea of disagreeing causes such psychic pain and conflict that one automatically nods their head in agreement and the moment passes. The discomfort recedes and all is normal again. Quite chilling, actually.

My Mum does this. Says she hasn't done anything or seen anyone for days on end. Five minutes later she's telling me she went to the garden centre on Wed, had lunch with Beryl on Thu, exercise class on Fri, dinner at my Sister's on Sat.....

I tend to ignore her now as I've realised she is a martyr and it's a form of emotional manipulation. Woe is me, you need to rush over and see me now.....

Yep, my DM does this too. It's her interpretation of events and if you disagree with it, you're wrong, a liar or worse. She has changed historical family events to suit her own narrative, to defend her own idea of who she is.

When we were kids we obviously didn't know this was happening but as adults it's caused major arguments. Up to and including her telling us we've said things that we absolutely haven't said. Another reason why I'm LC.

@AugustBreeze that makes sense.

@Fefifofaff that resonates perfectly for me- but if I said it out loud I think I’d sound bonkers.
Now that sounds like I’m saying you sound bonkers; I don’t. It’s just such a weird dynamic that it’s hard to believe it’s happening.

“psychic pain” really speaks to me. Frankly it’s difficult even being on the edge of this. It would nearly be a relief to join in.

Another one who finds this thread fascinating having witnessed the weird dynamic within DH's family for many years now. His sister is the 'golden child', and loves being so, whilst he was always a figure of fun in the family despite being the more intelligent and successful of the two.

It's his sister that's at the helm of the family controlling everyone around her, her own DH, her now adult children, my PIL and, previously, my DH. It was me calling her out on her behaviour years back that led us to go LC and eventually NC - I honestly believe I'm the only one in the family to have ever stood up to her and challenged her versions of the truth.

The last straw happened for us some time back when DH and I stepped in to help my elderly PIL due to them being adversely affected by a serious incident that had occurred with her family, cue an hour long rant down the phone from SIL to DH calling us both all the names under the sun. I think she was just so ashamed and embarrassed by what had gone on, coupled with jealousy and resentment that we'd been able to help, that the only thing she was capable of doing was hurling abuse whilst frantically trying to turn us into the bad guys once again.

Interestingly nowadays she is 'close' to her DH's family of whom she never used to have a good word to say, so I can only assume they've successfully fallen into line....

*occurred within her family

Might be interesting for you and DH to read 1984 and see if it strikes any chords with him. If he won't read it then you could, the parallels are striking on a psychological level (from my completely nonmedical perspective).

@thelegohooverer
Do you mean you're envious because you'd also like to call them out on their BS, but feel you can't because you're not their blood relatives?
If so, you can as they are part of your family and their nonsense affects you and your DH's lives/relationship.

Both sides of my family are similarly dysfunctional, but I made sure I broke the cycle with my own family. I'm practically NC with my Father's side of the family, only to attend my Grandma's funeral a few weeks ago. My Grandma was a victim of this behaviour inflicted by my late Grandfather and their Sons (my Father & Uncles). Now she's gone, it will be easier to go full NC.

@honeylulu
You've done really well, regardless. I'm proud of you!
I had this too. I was told I wouldn't amount to much, if I went ahead with having my 1st DC aged 19. I did and I continued with my education, including going into Higher Education when my DC was 2. It was fine and my partner and I had a better lifestyle than most of my family, whilst I was studying and working at the same time.
We continue to do well regardless, but some family members now feel that they need to try to compete with us. We try to ignore it, but their jealously means that we have to keep them at a distance.

This is a very interesting post. And certainly makes me think about my ex-partners family.

It's a type of fiction making and it is not unusual for a family to jettison "truth" for comfort or bonding. It's like a termite hill. The life of the colony is more important than the individual.

My ex came from a strange family. Well to do, kind of wanna-be middle class. They were intelligent, incredibly chatty and funny (which covers up loads). but had an obsession with good manners, while at the same time stamping down and neutralising emotion with humour and stoicism.

My partner would turn his whole life to personable chit-chat (a type of fake narrative) for his mother and family, even very personally painful things.

I think (I know) these behavioural 'demands' from his family eroded my ex-partners sense of self and his relationship with honesty. After many years I managed to get him to 'withhold' more from them, and not turn his life into surface dust for his family. Too late though I think.

Eventually we ended really badly. And the revelation of his dishonesty, primitive emotions, well hidden under surface charm after a lifetime of 'training' - was shocking.

Sadly, after 23 years I couldn't stand to stay in touch with his family, or him - I had loved them, but the "papering over cracks" with chit chat and jokes was something I just couldn't bear anymore.

I now wonder why I didn't have the strength to evaluate what I could see and what it might cost me and act in my own best interests.

These dynamics are really powerful and I was an honorary part of them for a while. I consciencely chose to 'belong' and ignore the bells. Wish I hadn't now, of course.

My own family were very different, no fiction going on, but equally negating of 'feeling'. The emotional temperature was the same I guess, just expressed in a very different way.

Personally I do think your observations may be an indication of something worrying. Keep an eye on it.

@dooratheexplorer
Same here with DM, but worse since Covid-19!
Our youngest DC has an underlying medical condition that has not been diagnosed yet. Blood test results have been delayed due to Covid.
My DM has rubbished the wearing of masks since March, but is now saying she's been wearing them since March. Saying she hasn't been anywhere for e.g. 6 days, so she can't have Covid. Thinking that is sufficient and makes her Covid free to visit us in our home, but then saying she been here there and everywhere. Meeting up with different people in pubs, etc.
I had to intervene and shut down a restaurant meet that my DM tried to secretly arrange with our eldest DC. DC said they agreed to it as they felt sorry for DM. I've spoken to my DM twice via phone since and she's yet to bring it up. It's though it never happened! 😐

@rosabug
It can take years/decades to see it when you're in it. Be kind to yourself.

Once I reached my teenage years and started to clap back against my parents dysfunctional behaviour, my DM strarted to tell me that I was too emotional. I would rather have empathy, than to not have it. I eventually came to realise that most of my family on both sides are devoid of that trait and other positive traits. And it took me 20+ years to realise and fully understand it all.

I came across this website on MN a few years ago:

outofthefog.website/

💐

Do you never challenge this fucked up dynamic? Surely now that the lies are putting your daughter in danger you do?

I would be temtped to say "What a shame MIL, no trips to hairdresser, funerals, restaurants".... but that is me (and I don't have an MIL!

I wonder if, when they were children if they dissagreed with something she said she would have a 'hissy fit' or punish them for not believing her. They could have been contitioned into not calling her out.
My mother told me when I split with DH that no-one in her family had ever been divorced and I was bringing shame to the family. I knew that one of her sisters had been divorced but she got really angry and said it was years ago and none of my business. I have since found out that her dad and one of her 2 brothers had also divorced, as well as 2 of my much older cousins.