Can you tell me what this behaviour is called?

[thelegohooverer]

I’m trying to get my head around something that goes on in DH’s family.

Mil has form for saying things that are demonstrably untrue. The most recent example was declaring “we [her and fil] go nowhere anymore except the supermarket and mass” in the context of stating how careful they are being about covid 19.
In the last week she’s also got her hair cut, played golf several times, visited a dying relative, attended her funeral with 50 or so people, entertained various family members in her home, hovered over four tradesmen to give them tea and sandwiches in her kitchen, shared a car with relative for several hours, and gone to restaurants for meals. None of this is a secret; she has told me and others these things openly. Yet she also claims to be going nowhere except for essential groceries and mass.

I don’t want to get into judgement about the covid stuff, as it’s just an example.

I know it’s lying, but it feels like there’s something else going on that I’m struggling to name. If I said this, I’d know I was telling a whopper, but I’m not sure if she does. Or if she does, why she’s doing it.

The thing that really perplexed me is how her adult children, including my dh, seem to be sort of hypnotised (well not really, but again I don’t know what to call this), and will repeat these things with the same conviction that she does.

They’re all normally intelligent, rational people in other respects.

There are numerous other examples of this kind of thing in the family where they all nod and agree about statements that are clearly at odds with reality. A relatively benign one is how they all talk about how their df never stops working, and is always busy and doing things, and he just can’t sit still. In the 15 years I’ve been in the family I’ve only once seen him working (in the garden) a handful of times but seen him sunbathing, snoozing, reading the paper, watching tv, and playing golf, browsing on his tablet for hours on end.

Again, I’m not begrudging him any of this but I find it really puzzling how the family all agree on an alternative version of the reality in front of them.

Even the way they have these conversations is slightly odd. It’s like they’re getting some sort of reassurance or validation from each other.

Privately I think of it as “propaganda”. But I’m trying to figure out what is actually at play here. I thought it might be gaslighting, but I don’t think that’s quite it either.

I don’t challenge this kind of thing, so I don’t think I’m triggering it, or it’s a response to me pointing stuff out or being judgemental eg about the covid thing. I tend to keep my head down and be as unobtrusive as possible, and neutral.

I don’t want to get into the wider family issues and impact on our marriage or this would be a long post. Suffice to say it’s not a light hearted post.

Has anyone encountered anything similar? Or have any wisdom to share?

Have RTWT with great interest.

My question - how to manage this personality type when they’re your boss?

My sister does this. I think of it as a disconnect between the truth and what she wants/needs to be true. If she says things out loud that somehow makes it true.

This is an interesting thread as I have realised that this is what is going on in a branch of my family. The matriarch speaks and they all listen and act in an appropriate manner as if she is telling the truth when in fact she's thick as shit and yet it's clearly bullshit. A sort of mass delusion to stop a bubble being pricked or something.

When I first introduced DH to these people he recognised it for what it was but we see them so infrequently that I had forgotten. It's like there is a myth that must be upheld at all costs. Fascinating.

@BubblyBluePebbles

Thank you. What a lovely comment. I welled up for a moment. ♥️

I keep writing replies and then deleting them because I don’t want to write anything too identifying. At least one of my sil is on mn.
But it has been immensely clarifying to even do that much.

So many of these stories resonate with me. Thank you for sharing them.

I have experience of this within my partners family.

It's really hard to put your finger on, but it is just as you describe OP.

Some examples....

"My children are sporty, active and energetic". Honestly, they are the least sporty kids I have ever come across. They like staying indoors (for days and sometimes weeks on end) and they like baking and arts and crafts!

Constantly bringing up the fun they had before I was part of the family. MY OH looks at them with confusion because he literally can't remember those times they are specifically talking about because they are so non-descript.

Judging others harshly and loudly for not confirming to social distancing etc whilst forming a bubble with a 2 adult household.

Declaring how much they love animals and how they would love a small holding but then never taking me up on offers to visit my family farm and see those animals.

Etc etc

None of these seem significant on their own but they are constantly saying stuff like this and like you, op, I rarely pull them up on it. It's tiring and wearing and I find my time with them very draining as I'm just sat there listening to a load of lies. I can never seem to have a normal conversation no matter how hard I try.

I think it's just their own insecurities but can't analyse it much further than that.

I have a SIL like this and it’s so frustrating. She just opens her mouth and drivel comes out and all the while I hold my tongue as hard as I can. Having to tolerate ones IL’s can be so tiresome at times. 😉

The FIL sounds totally detached from family life (snoozing, sunbathing etc) as you have witnessed when he is in your company. Most likely he was emotionally unavailable throughout the marriage and their childhoods - hence the “always working” myth.

Like PP has said it likely that she has all the power and control now because when they were younger she would throw a hissy fit - now they are all conditioned not to poke the hornets nest - so just let her babble on.

I expect that the FIL didn’t engage much with MIL - she just chatters on a monologue and they all just zone out because it would be too painful to pull a thread of truth and risk the whole marriage / happy family dynamic sham being exposed.

Is the FIL a drinker?

Could it be more that when your MIL says she hasn't seen anyone for days etc, what she's saying is she wants to be treated as someone who hasn't seen anyone for days ie. sympathy, contact, praise etc etc.
And it's harder for her family to point out the truth than it is to just give her what she wants.
Same with 'roles' in the family. She wants FIL to be seen as someone who never stops so that's what she says.

This means that truth stops being an expectation in interactions. She says what she says, people react as if this is true to satisfy her and everyone gets a quieter life than if they pointed out the falsehood. It soon becomes normal to pick up on what she's saying as a call for a certain response rather than as an expression of truth and the dynamic just continues.

For people outside the situations whose idea of a conversation is based in reality this just seems barmy.

And IMO it is barmy, it's manipulative to say whatever you want true or not to get the treatment you feel is owed you.

Just a thought.

I don’t want to get into the wider family issues and impact on our marriage or this would be a long post.

This must be the crux of it though surely? The nonsense chatter and the nodding donkeys sounds like a minor symptom.

I think this is the episode with the " there is no such thing as Africa, your father says so" moment. and if it isn't and makes someone smile for a second that's good too.

Someone I know did this sort of thing a lot. I think some of it is to make herself look good in the eyes of others. Some of it though seems to be a test to make sure she's still got someone under her control - can she make you "admit" that the tulips over there are fuchsias? That's just a theory though, and I'm not sure whether it would apply in OPs instance.

@Sssloou I think you’re on to something there. Fil was emotionally unavailable in dh’s childhood, and emotionally neglectful of mil. It’s brushed aside with “men in those days didn’t...” but my df and even my dgf we’re both supportive and unphased by their wives’ gynaecological difficulties. I think she was treated appallingly at times, and living in a culture where divorce wasn’t conceivable.

Dh has his father on a pedestal and will struggle to see him as the wrong one in any interaction. He idolises him. But his parenting is in stark contrast to his Own childhood. He’s hands on, emotionally available, involved, makes time for every event that is important to the dc, relishes family holidays, supports rather than moulds them and has no plans for their future beyond helping them be what they want.

@KormaKormaChameleon that rings true for parts of it. She is very needy of validation and approval. How you’ve described it makes sense. Except that I’d maintain that, with her own children, it goes beyond just humouring her. In fairness I can’t be certain about the other three, but with dh he gets sucked under.

Interesting thread.
Something similar happens in my family, my mother doesn't lie but she has zero self awareness so will go on a rant about something that we all know makes her a hypocrite.
There are certain things none of us will ever bring up or challenge her on but in general the level of respect is low and im not scared to disagree with her on other issues or put her in place when it comes to my child.
This might be different to your pil as my mother doesnt outright lie she just contradicts herself and what we all know to be true.
And has created an environment where we dont challenge or question certain things.
Me and my sister regularly have sessions of slagging her off but would never say most of it to her face.
She also suffered some trauma in childhood that she has not fully disclosed yet, and is a middle child.

My MIL is exactly the same. Her kids will roll their eyes behind her back at the insignificant lies but they 100% believe her about anything serious (and she has caused a lot of damage with her "big" lies).

I don't have anything to do with her anymore, don't want her near me or my kids. She's very manipulative, especially of DH so best thing for me is to have nothing to do with her.

When I was involved with DH's family I always found the dynamic so strange. The way her kids and FIL would hang on every word she said. They have no loyalty to each other as brothers and sisters, if MIL falls out with one of her children then they all fall out with them. And I always found conversations with MIL very difficult as I would have to spend time afterwards trying to unpick what she had said, which bits were true, which bits were lies, which bits where manipulative etc. Her kids are all a bit messed up in their own ways, MIL made some extremely poor parenting decisions when they were younger and I think that coupled with her lies and manipulation have done a lot of damage over the years.

Glad to be well out of it

I think fear of embarrassment when young can motivate lying that becomes more convincing. Also listeners can become used to the lying. I have a friend who missed lots of school because her mum clearly couldn't cope with her youngest siblings, but my friend had every illness imaginable as a cover.

Years later when she lies I just accept her descriptions may not be accurate. It's more a case of bending the truth, so she will say she is terrified of her DS getting ill so he always has a healthy diet, but I see their picnics are always chocolate spread sandwiches, crisps and sweets. I know he is overweight as can see this and she says she needs older clothes due to his waist size. Her logic of eating healthily is right, so I ignore the real-life contradiction.

Her 8 year old DS said to her face last time she described a holiday situation, "that's definitely a lie" as though he expected to hear lying. It was a weird moment as I have never challenged her, she changed the subject very quickly!

Ultimately, I don't challenge her, because she needs the flexibility from me more than I need the truth from her.

People like to create a persona for themselves so they stay relevant. People lie to themselves to be able to live with a situation they know others may sit in judgement of such as saying they hardly eat when they are grossly overweight.
It's about staying in control.

It's their problem and not yours, although listing all the faults your mother in law has can't be very helpful.

@happythankyoumoreplease
I always challenge this type of behaviour. You must have missed my earlier message where I said that I always call out the BS. I was giving my DM some time to somehow try to redeem herself by bringing it up first. I will most definitely address it during my next convo with her and then we'll fall out (again!).

@31133004Taff
I left my job due to a narcissistic Manager and also narc and incompetent Higher Management. Manager had progressively got worse over the years. I complained and challenged them, but it was tiring. I made it clear why I left. Unnecessary micromanaging, jealously, constant and ridiculous office drama, unrealistic workload and long hours on PT hours. Covering FT workloads of others who had left/gone off sick. Worked extra hours in my own time that I was discouraged from logging. Stretched public sector budgets and refusal to recruit additional staff. I didn't have another job lined up (which I wouldn't usually recommend), but I had had enough. I broke my public sector continuous service and enjoyed a planned break of several months at home with my kids whilst helping to launch DP's new business venture and volunteering at my DC's school (so no gaps on my CV). I started looking for work early this year and luckily found another job just before lockdown. I'm in a similar busy role with a challenging workload, but I'm a lot happier. I have just been offered a permanent contract, so it's all good.

@honeylulu
Awww. I welled up reading your response ❤️

@BubblyBluePebbles it’s really good to hear that it worked out so well for you.

@honeylulu, I found your story really inspiring too! I have a 7 year old DD who I think may have those kinds of issues. It is really encouraging to think she may go on to achieve a lot.

I have found this thread interesting. My family aren't as extreme as some of those described but I am low contact with my younger sister as she lives in a kind of fantasy world - and at times I have felt like DH and I are merely fictional characters in her reality. My parents back up what she says although my DM does occasionally express surprise about some of her reinventions of past family events. It's a very weird feeling and in some ways I feel I've lost part of my childhood.

As my DDad has aged, his making up of his own facts is getting more obvious. Re the recent A-level debacle, he was going on to me about his neighbour who is 'high up in education'. I asked: 'Does she work for Ofqual or Dfes, or one of the exam boards?' (I was genuinely interested, as DH work in education). DF looks shifty, evidently not totally sure of the difference and plumps for one of them. A few minutes on Google later and I had the info (which was not what he'd said). And this is supposedly his close friend...

Regarding 'we only go to mass and the supermarket' - that's surely just virtue signalling, isn't it? Covid has certainly driven quite a few people to some odd statements and opinions, as they try to figure out the new normal. It's especially unnerving when the government are clearly making it up as they go along.

Over the years I have come to really appreciate DH's parents!

I always (seemingly innocently) question my ILs when they say something I know or hugely suspect is a lie and they get very uncomfortable and usually backtrack and bluster and change their story. They don't like me for it but I find it really hard not to, as I just can't nod along and smile when I know i am being lied to.

They haven't learnt though and still lie to me all the time. It seems to have become so instinctive and natural they don't know how NOT to lie. And they seemingly forget the last lie they told so contradict themselves all the time. When I question this they very accusingly say what a good memory I have! Obviously a lot better than theirs!