Doubting my own judgement

[counters22]

Please help… I am trying to decide whether to ask my husband for a divorce and am totally confused and have lost faith in my own judgement.
I’m afraid of staying in a relationship that isn’t good enough and can’t be fixed, but I’m also afraid of leaving and regretting it. How do you know/decide what to do!?

I’ve considered divorce on and off over the years (since 2014) so we’ve definitely had our issues over the years. Each time we say we’ll give it a few months to try and improve things but the fact that I’m here now I guess suggests that we don’t manage to make permanent improvements (although in 2017 I didn’t think we’d separate as I then chose to have my youngest in 2018).

To give you an idea of the issues that I feel are in the relationship:

• Broken Trust – I don’t think my husband would cheat on me, so I guess I’m lucky in that sense. But I have had my trust broken - for example, when my husband knew I wouldn’t approve of a particular boy’s weekend away he lied and told me he was going away with his Dad and cousin on a racing weekend. He continued to lie when asked about it (to the point of showing me pictures of his cousin with a horse and suggesting I was in the wrong for even questioning him) and only admitted it when I told him I had seen messages on his phone. Another example is where he didn’t tell me about a payrise (we put all of our money in a joint account) – he withdrew it and kept it in the wardrobe instead. Looking back I think we should have handled our finances differently as I think the issue was that maybe he felt like he always had to explain how he was spending his money because of it being in a joint account – but I don’t like that he was deceptive instead of talking to me about it. These particular examples are from 2016 and 2018 but I’ve found it hard to get past in the sense that I find myself suspicious about things now 

• Compassion - I often don’t feel like my husband really cares for me/my feelings. From simple things like speaking over me on a night out, to when on holiday he left me to get out of the swimming pool and find my way to medical help on my own after I hurt myself. He’ll also walk away from me even if I’m in tears during an argument. He’s a massive football fan and we’ve also had many arguments about times when he’s put football over family occasions. My husband in fairness to him doesn’t go out drinking etc that often and I don’t have an issue with him going to the football but it feels like it comes first and the family are expected to fit around it? Am I expecting too much?

• Communication – my husband gets frustrated when I’m upset by something and often says things like “are you still going on about this”, “why do you always make things into an issue” etc. I pick and choose which issues are big enough to discuss and he quite often gets frustrated if the conversation goes on for longer than he would like.

• Volatile Mood - my husband seems to over-react to things, for example, he might swear about being woken by one of the children or get easily annoyed if things don’t go smoothly to plan. I’ve noticed I’ve started feeling anxious when the children are “playing up”, but I think moreso because I don’t want him to get stressed out and then the whole thing spiral from there – rather than it being the children’s behaviour itself that’s bothering me. I’m also starting to worry that my daughter is being affected as she has become more emotional recently.

Of course my husband has positives too – he works hard and splits childcare and housework with me equally. He has tried to make improvements in the past when we’ve had discussions and I genuinely think wants to do right by us. Particularly since our last discussion in March he does seem to be trying to be less snappy etc… but so much has happened that I'm wondering whether this is just to get me to stay and then old habits will return - but then think I'm being unfair to him. I'm very confused!

Is there such a thing as too much water under the bridge? Am I over-reacting to things and should be more grateful for what he does and more laid back?

Please help!

Also I was thinking about manipulation. It might make it easier to see it as him manipulating the situation, rather than you. If he was successfully manipulating you, you'd just be accepting it. The fact that you are a strong person is the reason it's pissing you off. Your pissed-off-ness is your strength, yelling its head off, trying to be heard.

He manipulates situations so that they don't create conflict, and he still gets to do what he wants to do. It's basic conflict avoidance. He probably often doesn't realise he's doing it. He's protecting the part of himself that hates conflict, that's all. It doesn't mean he's evil, it just means he's weak.

He gaslights you. Have you heard that term? It means to make somebody feel there's something wrong with them for believing in their own reality. He does things that hurt you, and then makes you feel at fault for being hurt. That's why you feel so unheard; he denies your reality.

I didn’t read the whole thread but finances wise you said he would struggle to pay half of the bills so another option would be to each transfer a set amount of spending money to private accounts each week and keep the rest in the joint account for bills. He can spend his spending money week week or accumulate it and when you spend it it’s private.

If possible in the near future could he move out and live separately for a while. Just to see things more clearly. Maybe that would encourage him to have counselling?

I thin' you both have good and bad points. It must be frustrating living with someone who is clingy and doesn't seem to have interests outside home and work. However he is selfish to put football above family, and that's a serious issue. I think many men in marriages are selfish. My ex once said in a counselling session his hobby was a once in a lifetime opportunity until I pointed out to him, being newly married and living abroad was also a once in a lifetime opportunity to get to know one another and so things together. He just didn't get it. Even the counsellor did a bit of an eye roll with me.

I read most of your post and can resonate with some of the points. Men (by nature and in general) are more selfish than women. We have had our ups and downs, like most of my friends. He can be very selfish at times and is crap at arguing things out and it Often results in him leaving the room and me being upset.
My point being that I have issues and he has issues and over the years we have dealt with our issues separately and a lot of it is due to us both just growing up and maturing a bit.
Our kids are teenagers now and due to our different backgrounds we have different ideals on how they should behave etc. This can cause arguments and I do let things slide for the sake of peace. But he also lets things slide for the same reason.
He has done things in the past that still sting but I know he’s a good person and we all have faults.
The one thing I won’t tollerate is lies though, I hate liers and have drilled this into my kids also.
Really what I’m saying is that I have been in your predicament over a period of time when the kids were small and life in general was tough. It’s a head wreck and it goes round and round in circles. I would recommend that you go for counseling yourself. It really helps to process your thoughts and a good counselor can guide you and help you reach a conclusion.

Men (by nature and in general) are more selfish than women

Unnecessary. Many emotional abusers are women and exhibit the same trait(s)

If he was serious about changing and working on your marriage he would be RUNNING to counselling.

But he isn't, because he has no interest in real change. He only wants to fake it for a short while, to fish you back in, the way he always fishes you back in.

If you stay, you will either one day realise that you can never be happy with him (because he is an entitled, lying, gaslighting, emotional abuser who WILL cheat on you if it suits him) and leave, having wasted even more years of your life.

Or you will one day find yourself on your deathbed regretting the lifetime wasted on him

Think of how that will feel when you get to wondering if this is salvagable. It isn't. He already has what he wants. He doesn't careif it isn't what you want. He doesn't care about you, and doesn't even respect you enough to go to counselling. He's not bothered enough to even make a good fake show of changing, because a crap attempt will do.

You say he has redeeming features but you are still unhappy in the relationship due to past hurts. It might be that you cannot come back from these especially the lying. I've been in a similar marriage in the past and stayed way longer than I should have because I did not have the courage to leave. I left eventually when I could financially afford to and when I ran out of reasons to stay but mostly because I did not like my exH never mind love him. I'm not sure you are at that stage yet hence your conflicting thoughts. That does not make it right to stay for longer but only you can decide when you are ready for that.

The reason why you are still feeling hurt perhaps because his reasoning has put the blame on you...he believed that you would stop him doing what he wanted to do. In his mind it was your fault he had to lie. If he cannot take responsibility for his own words and actions how can you be expected to forgive him and move forward?

Given his lack of respect towards you at times do you question his reasoning for wanting to stay and make it work? Is he actually happy or is he staying because you provide a certain amount of financial stability for him whilst he also resents you for this?

I agree with PP who has suggested that you should seek counselling for yourself to talk it through. Tell DH you are going to speak to a counsellor, there is no need to ask him to come with you. If you seeking help prompts DH to ask to go with you find a different one to use as a couple, keep your counsellor to yourself. Good luck

Thank you so much to everybody for your replies... it's been a difficult day as my husband is very much in he wants to make it work mode and my head is still a mess so I feel guilty for being distant. I am considering asking for a break so I can try to get my head clear without having him there. When I'm away from him I feel more comfortable with the idea of a break but when I'm around him feel more sad and guilty about it... I guess that's normal?

@SarahMcDonald I know that you're right about the parenting thing and that doesn't mean he's a good husband - I guess it's just something I'm grateful of and that reminds me he's not a bad person so adds to my guilt. I know I've tried to make it work over the last 6 years, I really have. But this time he is saying that he knows he's hurt me and he hates that and that I am important to him etc and he wants to listen to me. So it's confusing me more, especially when my Mum's view is that I shouldn't rush into anything and should give it chance etc. which is what I was worried about. Although I don't know what the concrete thing that would change is

@Eckhart He will get up in the night, it's just that he's often grumpy about it and makes it feel more stressful and so it's easier to just do it myself. I'm not defending him there by the way as I had a chat with him about it a few months ago and told him it wasn't fair that his moods were effecting everybody else and that's when he started to change a bit. I've heard of the term gaslighting as that's the red flag I saw about the horse incident where he was literally showing me pictures to support his lie. You're right though that he does successfully avoid conflict because I tend to just try and avoid it myself now because I don't want an argument that isn't resolved anyway or to feel like I've done something wrong for having an opinion.

@pinktaxi I did speak to him about going to stay at his Dad's and he said that he would. My Mum talked me out of it because she said once he'd left he'd never come back, we wouldn't be working on things while were gone etc. But she's coming from the angle that she thinks if we can get out on dates after lockdown it'll suddenly all be okay.

@Ogham - that's another thing that I've thought about - I don't know what a normal level of up's and down's are. Maybe this is all normal and I'm just being dramatic and would be tearing my families life apart for no reason. But I agree that the lying is really hard to get past, even if I've tried to understand the reasons for it, as sometimes I am suspicious now and I don't want to be like that. Maybe I do need to think about counselling for myself.

@ChristmasFluff - This is one of the big things that I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of wasting more time, never feeling fully happy and either never having the courage to leave or doing it later than I should. But I'm terrified of making the wrong choice the other way too and looking back realising that I could/should have made it work. So the two conflicting things are crippling me. I said to my husband yesterday that I feel like it's always been about his needs and he agreed that it probably has... which actually is maybe the first validation I've had that I'm not imagining it and being unfair.

@Cherry83 I am worried that there comes a point in time where there's just too much hurt and "water under the bridge" to come back from. He's made me feel awful and really hurt at various times and never really truly apologised for a lot of them I guess. I don't want to be treated the way he's treated me in the past, so I guess it's whether I believe he would truly change or always slip back. And also whether I can even let my guard down this time to let him in. I guess I do question why he stays, in the same way I question a lot of things now. He tells me he's unhappy but that he wants to stay to make it work which considering he tells me that this is the saddest he's ever felt now is confusing. He says its because he loves me and can't imagine being without me.

@backseatcookers

Just because there are 10/10 wankers it doesn't mean you should spend your life with a 7/10 wanker.

Fucking hell, this is brilliant advice!

We just had another chat, as I’ve basically done everything I can to avoid my husband for the last couple of days and he said he needs to know where he stands which is fair enough. He said he’s not willing to go to counselling because he doesn’t see how it would help but if I want to go on my own while he goes to live at his dads or something that’s fine. He also still said he wants to make it work and that he will listen to me more etc. Definitely full of self doubt this morning. Don’t want to make the wrong decision either way. He’s a good person so maybe I’m being stupid not to try if he’s really willing to try this time. But equally what will be different really, will history just repeat itself? I don’t know. Thank you to everybody for your help

In the heat of the moment its so easy to make plans to leave but after a few days you've cooled down and your mind starts wondering what you made all the fuss for.

It's very telling he wont go to counselling, even if he thinks it wont help, if he really wants to save his marriage and stay married he would as you want to do it.

How many times has he promised to change and either hadnt or did it for a few days/weeks?
It's really difficult to change how you are as a person which is why when people in relationships are asked to change they cant maintain it because it's not them - the real them is how you were being treated.

I left my husband 2 years ago after years of emotional affairs/flirty messages to other women.

The day I would find out I would plan to leave and be so angry, this would last a couple of days, I'd then ignore him for 2 weeks and he would be on his best behaviour and 2 weeks on what he did didnt seem that bad and it all got swept under the carpet.

This happened time and time again and I couldn't walk because he threatened suicide.
I knew I would eventually leave when the kids were older but what made me leave earlier than that was finding a message to a woman asking for a date, I decided to do things differently so straight away I moved into my sons bedroom and I told everyone because I knew pride would stop me going back.
Even after I saw a solicitor to get him out of the house I still kept having niggling thoughts that what he had done wasnt that bad and at least he hadnt physically cheated.

Luckily pride kept me going and going through old diaries remembering the shit times helped smd eventually I got angry, with him and myself, I realised he didnt respect me and never had done and that's what kept me going.

Dont waste your life on someone who doesmt give you what you want.
I wasted 17 years with my husband.

I'm in such a great place now, I loved being single and being myself.
I love my little life now.

I think a break could do you good and I bet your home will become much happier with no one walking around on egg shells or catering to his whims and moods.

Just read back and you've had these thoughts for 6 years, please dont waste more time on this marriage that has clearly ended.

It doesnt matter that you had your youngest in 2018 and that was basically a clean start.

You have the right to change your mind at any time, you also have the right to end your marriage, you dont even need a reason.

If he goes to his dads on a break then set boundaries about when he can see the kids (and you if you want time with him). Don't let him come and go as he pleases as you'll never get any peace from him and time to think.

@SortingItOut Thank you so much for your messages and I’m really glad to hear that you’re doing well now. You’re absolutely right that I’ve been in a cycle of feeling like I can’t take it anymore, then doubting if I’m overreacting, then sweeping it under the carpet as we start to “work on things”. Sometimes the working on things has worked for a while - the reason why my son exists! - but obviously here we are again. And in fairness the payrise lie was right after my son was born so were things really as improved as I thought because he’d been hiding money in his wardrobe while I was pregnant...

I am terrified of wasting more time but am getting advice from my mum and friends that giving it a few more months in the grand scheme of things doesn’t hurt, and I genuinely believe they have my best interests at heart, so that plays on my fear of regretting it if I look back and wonder if I could have done more, if this time would have been different etc.

You’re right though that you can’t change who you are as a person. I think maybe I need to have another chat with my husband tonight, ask him what he thinks he has done wrong over the years and what he could do differently and I do the same? As if nothing still is going to be done differently then we’re just going to repeat history and I don’t want that.

If he does go to his dads on a break then for a few weeks until we can get internet set up at his dads unfortunately he would have to be here during the day in the week so that he could work and help home school our eldest. But I agree that there would still have to be clear boundaries around that.

But equally what will be different really, will history just repeat itself? I don’t know

Yes history will repeat itself. It has to, because you are not listening.

@IM0GEN Thanks for your honesty. I am trying to listen and take on board as many opinions as I can because I’m genuinely afraid of making the wrong decision. My friend for example said to me that once you leave there’s no going back but you can always try for a few more months and then choose to leave.

I don’t want to be a fool or be hurt, I also just don’t want to look back with what ifs or thoughts that I could have done more and that’s the view my family and friends seem to be taking

Does you friend know you've been trying for 6 years or does each new issue count as a new try?

There is a choice to go back if you leave, if your husband agrees to reconcile then you can go back.

I think he's making a fool of you already, never mind you making a fool of yourself by leaving and regretting it.

My ex husband was a nice guy, people thought he was perfect, only a few close friends of mine knew the truth.
Nobody actually cared when we split except my husband because he couldn't believe I would walk away and he's still in shock now.

Your friend isnt living your life, you are and you need to make the right decision.
I still cant believe he wont go to counselling....

BTW I don’t mean you are not listening to the advice here. I can see that you are and you’ve been very good to acknowledge everyone who is posting and trying to help you.

I mean you are not listening to your own history. For some reason you have learned to invalidate your own feelings, memories and perceptions. Everyone’s view is valid except your own.

Do you where And how you learned this?

Your husband does not seem to have a growth-mindset at all. Without the mindset, the growth (good-communication, kind conflict resolution, empathy, compassion, patience, & much more) does not happen. When nothing changes in a person`s emotional realm(& they seem content with the status quo) nothing changes in outer reality :-(

@SortingItOut I think she’s seeing each new issue as a new try because there’s been better periods in between them? I think if I left they’d all be really supportive, it’s just the initial advice which I asked for is that they think I should give it one last try so that I can either fix things or walk away with certainty.

He said he won’t go to counselling because he doesn’t think it will help and doesn’t see why it’s needed because we can talk without a counsellor. I may need to highlight more what a counsellor does! I also twigged after the conversation that I think he said he doesn’t want to go because he hasn’t done anything wrong recently? That’s why I’m going to ask him tonight what he thinks he’s done wrong and what he thinks he could change as if he genuinely thinks he’s never done anything wrong then I know I’m never going to get anywhere!

@IM0GEN I see what you mean... I think I’ve always had a lot of self doubt but from a relationship perspective I feel like I haven’t got a clue. I know I’ve felt hurt and on some things I know it’s because my husband was in the wrong (e.g. when he left me when I was hurt) but on others it’s such a grey area and that’s why I don’t have a clear view. It could be that I’m overreacting as easily as it could be that I’m being made a fool of.

If he has lied to me since 2018 I wouldn’t have a way of knowing and he says he hasn’t... I want to feel more cared for but my husband says he does care and points to the times we’ve been distant (because I’ve been working too much or stressed or whatever) and says that if we were closer and getting along better it’d feel better... he has been working on his snappy moods and I don’t want to be unreasonable because anybody can be snappy... and round in circles we go! I can’t hear the difference between gut instincts, anxieties and the voices of others in my head when it comes to my marriage

@kayana123 Wow that list really sums up the things that I want! We said we’d talk about what we both need tonight to see if we can actually give it to each other - those things will definitely be going on my list! I genuinely don’t think my husband knows how to do empathy and emotion after the issues he had with his mum growing up, he’s probably trying but just doesn’t know how.

When/if you feel ready to share, wondering how it went. More than one discussion needed Im guessing, if going forward. Subsequent ones with more connection talk&how tos re communication. On the flip side, it may not have gone the moving forward way. Wishing you well in it all...

a few more months in the grand scheme of things doesn’t hurt

Have you said this before? And if so, how many years has it been? Months are adding up... quite a lot of your life has now been taken up with waiting for him to become a person who makes you happy.

How would you feel if you didn't doubt your feelings? If you could be certain sure, in one fell swoop, that all your feelings were valid, that you weren't over reacting, that you weren't being stupid? What decision would you make, if you had that certainty?

I genuinely don’t think my husband knows how to do empathy and emotion after the issues he had with his mum growing up, he’s probably trying but just doesn’t know how

That doesn't excuse him. I forgave all kinds of behaviour from my ex because of all the childhood suffering, all the 'not coping with emotions' etc. But the fact is, many abusers do what they do because of a difficult upbringing. It explains why they do it, but it doesn't excuse them. Separating the two is very important, otherwise the abuse from their childhood is perpetuated into our present. We can be the ones who stop the abuse travelling from generation to generation, by stepping away, and making sure our children see an alternative.

@kayana123 So we've had several chats... on Sunday night I came away from the conversation feeling pretty terrible as there seemed to be a lot of focus on how I've made him feel bad or how he's lied/kicked off because he was expecting trouble and/or judgement from me. So I went back to him last night and said it wasn't fair for me to take all the responsibility etc and didn't really feel like we were getting anywhere so we started detailed talks about separating and my husband went to stay at his Dad's. This morning he came back (to use the internet for work and look after our daughter) and said that he think it's silly that we're splitting up when we still get along as friends and that he thinks with some work and affection and choosing to "wipe the slate clean" we can make things work. Admitted things he's done wrong etc. After he'd actually left last night and I was on the phone to my Mum it was hard to remember all his negatives and whether they are really big enough to split up the family and only see the children 50% of the time etc. So I guess now we're back in limbo of me deciding whether we can work on the relationship enough to make us both happy.

@Eckhart Yes, I've said this before, several times. I admit that since I said it in March I've made absolutely no effort which niggles me. Other times when I've said it it's improved for a while but then slipped again. I know I can't carry on in the same cycle forever. I'm just worried that if he really is willing to try this time (my Mum thinks he's had his wake up call that I actually told him to leave) that I'm putting myself through a divorce and only seeing the children 50% of the time for no reason. Maybe we need to get the temporary improvements but make an effort to keep them this time? I don't know. I'm worrying that I'm focussing too much on the negatives and ignoring that he does try to help me out with jobs, does listen to me better than he used to etc. He's admitted this morning that he's been snappy but because he's stressed and he'll work on it, he wants us to go out and do stuff and try to be more like a couple than friends. He admitted he was wrong to leave me when I hurt my eye etc... I do also know that talk is cheap though. It's just so confusing. As I mentioned, I told him to leave and then immediately started remembering his good points and family days out like I was regretting my decision.