Doubting my own judgement

[counters22]

Please help… I am trying to decide whether to ask my husband for a divorce and am totally confused and have lost faith in my own judgement.
I’m afraid of staying in a relationship that isn’t good enough and can’t be fixed, but I’m also afraid of leaving and regretting it. How do you know/decide what to do!?

I’ve considered divorce on and off over the years (since 2014) so we’ve definitely had our issues over the years. Each time we say we’ll give it a few months to try and improve things but the fact that I’m here now I guess suggests that we don’t manage to make permanent improvements (although in 2017 I didn’t think we’d separate as I then chose to have my youngest in 2018).

To give you an idea of the issues that I feel are in the relationship:

• Broken Trust – I don’t think my husband would cheat on me, so I guess I’m lucky in that sense. But I have had my trust broken - for example, when my husband knew I wouldn’t approve of a particular boy’s weekend away he lied and told me he was going away with his Dad and cousin on a racing weekend. He continued to lie when asked about it (to the point of showing me pictures of his cousin with a horse and suggesting I was in the wrong for even questioning him) and only admitted it when I told him I had seen messages on his phone. Another example is where he didn’t tell me about a payrise (we put all of our money in a joint account) – he withdrew it and kept it in the wardrobe instead. Looking back I think we should have handled our finances differently as I think the issue was that maybe he felt like he always had to explain how he was spending his money because of it being in a joint account – but I don’t like that he was deceptive instead of talking to me about it. These particular examples are from 2016 and 2018 but I’ve found it hard to get past in the sense that I find myself suspicious about things now 

• Compassion - I often don’t feel like my husband really cares for me/my feelings. From simple things like speaking over me on a night out, to when on holiday he left me to get out of the swimming pool and find my way to medical help on my own after I hurt myself. He’ll also walk away from me even if I’m in tears during an argument. He’s a massive football fan and we’ve also had many arguments about times when he’s put football over family occasions. My husband in fairness to him doesn’t go out drinking etc that often and I don’t have an issue with him going to the football but it feels like it comes first and the family are expected to fit around it? Am I expecting too much?

• Communication – my husband gets frustrated when I’m upset by something and often says things like “are you still going on about this”, “why do you always make things into an issue” etc. I pick and choose which issues are big enough to discuss and he quite often gets frustrated if the conversation goes on for longer than he would like.

• Volatile Mood - my husband seems to over-react to things, for example, he might swear about being woken by one of the children or get easily annoyed if things don’t go smoothly to plan. I’ve noticed I’ve started feeling anxious when the children are “playing up”, but I think moreso because I don’t want him to get stressed out and then the whole thing spiral from there – rather than it being the children’s behaviour itself that’s bothering me. I’m also starting to worry that my daughter is being affected as she has become more emotional recently.

Of course my husband has positives too – he works hard and splits childcare and housework with me equally. He has tried to make improvements in the past when we’ve had discussions and I genuinely think wants to do right by us. Particularly since our last discussion in March he does seem to be trying to be less snappy etc… but so much has happened that I'm wondering whether this is just to get me to stay and then old habits will return - but then think I'm being unfair to him. I'm very confused!

Is there such a thing as too much water under the bridge? Am I over-reacting to things and should be more grateful for what he does and more laid back?

Please help!

It seems almost as if your goal is to convince yourself to believe that things could improve. It's so tenuous. Even if you convince yourself to believe it, it doesn't make it true, and it doesn't make you happy.

He doesn't respect you. He won't start respecting you because you make some internal choice to believe that he can be a better man. You're making lots of excuses for him too (his difficult time growing up/your clinginess etc) None of these things matter.

My dh is very very similar. We had a final ultimatum last autumn and several 'talks' before (less successfully) and since (more successfully). But I feel that the emotional damage was already done and the final ultimatum might have been too late for me, only time will tell.

I've come to two realisations that mean we can't split up though, at least not while dd is little:

1. I in no way trust him to make good choices for dd while she's in his care - from not losing his temper to the kinds of people (including his future partner) that he'd introduce in to her life.
2. he can be so horrid, I'm sure he'd do his absolute best to poison dd against me.

At least while we're all under one roof, I can control the situation as best I can. I would obviously like dh's improvements to continue and for our family life to be happy. I do realise that it's not 'him', he's naturally a very angry person but he is starting to recognise it which is helping greatly.

@Tabithha At the time when we decided to have another child things had improved enough that I didn't think we'd separate. I knew he had lied in 2016 but I had chosen to forgive it and the second big lie was shortly after my second was born. That's part of the problem I guess, that I know things can improve (as they did then) and go back to square one again so I fear that would happen again. I'll never regret having my second though, he's amazing.

@Perfectstorm12 I think I forgave it because it was the first time he'd majorly lied to me, and because we'd been going through a rough patch and he said he knew I wouldn't want him to go and didn't want the argument - so I guess I took some of the responsibility that maybe I had been too controlling? I do feel a bit of a mug saying that though. And if it happened again now I would leave. To be honest if the baby hadn't been 5 weeks old after the payrise lie I think I would have left then. Two sets of broken trust are hard to overcome, but then when I was speaking to my husband today he pointed out that 2018 was 2 years ago and he hasn't been like that since so maybe he has changed (I guess I won't know unless something happens, I just hate having the doubt in my mind, I don't want to be a suspicious person).

It is too easy to doubt myself sadly as I'm scared of tearing the family apart for no reason if we could have made it work, and I'm scared of looking back and wondering if I should have given it one more chance.

I do worry about my daughter, I definitely don't think she's scared of him as he's not violent, but I worry about the impact on her self esteem if she feels like she's doing things wrong when it's actually just him being snappy. I've noticed her shouting back at him a lot recently which she doesn't do with me. He does seem to be working on his "snappy-ness" since March to be fair to him, although I do wonder why now because I also had a massive chat with him about it before then.

@Eckhart I'm scared of walking away if we could have actually made things work properly this time - as I know that it's better for the children, financially etc. if we could make it work properly. I know there has to be a limit on the number of times I try to make it work, but I think I'm just confused. I called my mum for advice today (never too old to go to mum I guess!) and her view was that I shouldn't be making decisions during lockdown, that things might be different if she starts helping looking after the kids so we can have date night once a month (as we haven't for the last 12 months because she'd had an op) and therefore would it be better to give it some time to see how things were. So I guess that's honed in on the things I was already concerned about.

When I spoke to my husband today he said he knows he did things wrong (like when I hurt myself in the pool and when he left me in tears) and he wants us to be closer and things to be different going forward. He said he does want to listen to me and that if we were closer that would be easier to do - apparently he feels sad too because I've been really distant with him recently (which is true, I know I've pulled away and feel like I've shut down a bit).

I don't feel like he's treated me right in the past so I suppose it's whether I want to give him the chance to treat my right in the future. Honestly my head is just a mess!

@kellyhall I'm so sorry to hear you're going through a similar thing and that you feel like you can't leave. Do you think you would have left if you weren't concerned about dd, or are the improvements starting to make a difference? My husband does seem genuine about wanting to improve things but I am wondering why it is different this time... but maybe it would be different this time. Argh! I have to admit I feel a bit emotionally numb right now though and maybe that's why I haven't made much effort since our last chat in March - too much emotional damage to turn back from?

But you've already given him the chance and he's blown it. You've shut down because your instincts know (even if your mind doesn't want to accept) that you don't want him too close to you. You've been here before. It is confusing because different parts of you say different things, but the voice to listen to is that one that's defending you; the one that's making you act distant and shut down. That's your real self. That's YOU, your heart, your soul.

All the other voices are your mind, the thinky part of you. Your head feels a mess because it's doing all its usual 'logic' stuff, working so very hard, and it's just not gaining any ground. So you get this tussle, this 'It's more financially sensible, BUT...' and 'It's more stable for the kids, BUT...' and the 'but' is always that something in you just knows it's not right to stay.

He's got some gall to be telling you he's sad you're distant. You wouldn't be if he treated you well, would you. It's on him. People you don't treat nicely don't want to be close to you. Don't feel sorry for him.

@Eckhart Thank you for your help, I really do appreciate it and what you're saying makes a lot of sense... because it is that "but" which is keeping me frozen in spot, paralysed and not knowing what I'm supposed to do. The logical part of me knows that it's better if it works and we stay as a family... but I'm not sure I believe that it does or can work. It would just be easier if it did. Especially as I know he has positives like how much he helps around the house and don't want to look back and realise I was the issue.

It's just been a vicious circle for so long now. He's said before that he finds it hard to be close to me/supportive etc when I'm being distant - that time it was a conversation about him feeling rejected in the bedroom though. Sadly I ended up feeling pressured to try and make things right by doing things I didn't really want to do that time to get the emotional closeness back but I made it clear in March that wouldn't be happening this time so am quite surprised he stuck around after that to be honest.

You know this is how abuse works, don't you? You get abused, then you act in ways (angry/distant etc) that could be perceived as pushing the abuser away, but they accept you back anyway and forgive you, and around you go again endlessly.

He is treating you very poorly and yet you're quite surprised he stuck around after that to be honest

Can you not see how he's manipulating you? You're feeling pressured to try and make things right by doing things I didn't really want to do that time, and yet you're not the one who's behaving badly within the marriage. He's not doing things he doesn't want to do, is he. It's a stretch to even get basic respect out of him, whilst you're bending over backwards.

You are NOT the issue here. You can't let a person off the hook for lying, walking away when you cry, not communicating, being volatile, just because they do their share of housework. It's so sad that you feel you don't deserve more, because you do. It's clear that you'll go to great lengths to try to achieve a loving relationship and these efforts could lead you to so much happiness with someone who understands what a marriage is supposed to be about. Imagine if you were making all that effort and the other person was too!

@Eckhart When I say I'm quite surprised he stuck around after that - I mean because he's made it clear in the past how important sex is to him (hence why I ended up feeling pressured in the past) so this time when I stood up for myself and said it won't be happening unless I'm ready I half expected him to leave there and then. It doesn't really make sense that he doesn't leave if he's as unhappy as he's saying he is. He said it's because he loves me and thinks it can work etc.

I think there is a part of me that's wondered if I'm being manipulated because I don't understand why he would suddenly accept the things he's done wrong now and suddenly be willing to change now when he hasn't before. I just don't want to be being unfair to him by thinking that as I don't think he's a bad person.

As I said at the beginning I feel like I'm doubting my own judgement - I don't know how much stuff I am at least partly to blame for (e.g. with the pressured thing I'd been working loads and probably hadn't been trying hard enough at the relationship at that time so it's reasonable that he would have felt "neglected") and how much I shouldn't be letting him off the hook for. For sure though is the fact that we've handled things wrong and I feel hurt and emotionally lost now.

But there's no 'should'. This isn't about who followed the rules best. We don't even know what the rules are. And there's probably as many sets of 'relationship rules' as there are people. He doesn't have to be 'a bad person' for you to leave him, without guilt.

It's about how you feel. In a sense, how he feels is irrelevant, because a person is perfectly within their rights to end a relationship even if their partner doesn't want to. This is about you (and your kids)

All your reasons to stay are external (for the kids/for money/for stability) All your reasons to leave are internal (hurt/can't trust/not stable) But your kids will be happier and have a better example if you don't demonstrate to them that 'vicious circle' relationships are something to stick with. You will be more stable without his volatility. You earn more than he does so will be able to make it work financially. A married life with this man is not the only way you can achieve the things you want.

I think you should get legal advice about divorcing. You don’t have to act on it if you don’t want to but at least you would know where you stand.

BTW if you are in the Uk you don’t have to ask your husband for a divorce. He doesn't need to consent , you can just separate,

If he does half the childcare now then why wouldn’t he continue to do so if you split up? So your children wouldn’t sufferl

Is there equity in your house? Do you have savings or a pension? could you support yourself and your children on your own wages ? Of course you would have reduced childcare costs if their father had them half the week .

One single parent I know works 4 long days a week and has their children the other 3 days.

@Eckhart I do think you’re right about the internal reasons, I’m not happy and afraid of being stuck like this forever. I’m just scared of making the wrong decision too so don’t want to rush into anything and make a mistake... which is probably laughable after 6 years of ups and downs! I guess I either have to commit to trying or call it a day as there’s no point coasting along in the middle with nothing changing. But I’m not sure I even want to try anymore as I’ve been hurt so much and I don’t want to be hurt again. I did wonder whether we should have a break for space to get my head straight but that’s probably just prolonging the agony. I am lucky that I should just about be able to take over all the bills and mortgage for our current house on my own wages so that the children would have that stability of the same home. It just might take me a bit of time to buy out the equity in the house and there wouldn’t be a lot left over. But I would find a way to make it work if leaving was the right thing.

But I’m not sure I even want to try anymore as I’ve been hurt so much and I don’t want to be hurt again

This is key.

It is really hard and confusing when your head and heart say different things over something major. Stay strong and stay with your heart, whatever it says.

@SarahMcDonald We don’t have savings or pensions, just the things that we own. There is equity in the house which I guess I would have to buy my husband out of rather than just taking over the mortgage... but maybe I should get advice as I don’t really know how it all works. I have worked out that I can just about afford to take on all the bills myself fortunately so I could keep myself and the children in the house we’re in now. I hope my husband would pay for half of the stuff that related to the children, so half of their childcare, and still see them half of the time... he’s suggested he would when we’ve discussed it loosely in the past

@Eckhart There’s lots of things that you’ve said which have really resonated with me to be honest - the fact that I don’t want to be hurt again and don’t know if I can trust him not to let me down again. The fact that he’d have to change to give me what I need and that’s probably never going to happen, at least not permanently. And the fact that my head is a mess because it’s trying to work on logic but logic isn’t working for me in this situation as that’s been keeping me stuck. I even said in one of my posts that logically I know it would be better if it did work but I don’t think I believe that it does or can. I think I’m just scared, including scared of the permanence and of making the wrong choice. I’ve literally been shaking most of the day since speaking to my husband, I’m not good at this!

Normally he would pay for the childcare on the days that he has them. And they would have all their own clothes and toys at his house. And pay for clubs etc that fall on his days.

If he has the children half the time then you would get no child support. But of course he would have to be able to afford to buy somewhere to have the kids, the same as you. So you are right, you would have to buy him out the house in some way and over an agreed timescale.

Have you both opted out of your workplace pension scheme ?

Yes you’d need legal advice but it should be quite straightforward, if everything is as you say and he is reasonable.

www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/should-i-give-him-a-second-chance-or-a-3rd-4th-20th/

This is post on a blog I read a lot when going through a break up with someone who was emotionally abusive and very cruel. It's actually more about dating than marriage, but there's a lot of stuff about maintaining healthy boundaries and not repeating old mistakes. It gave me clarity and strength and bravery when I was very confused and hurt, and needed to find 'me' under all the painful relationship debris.

It does sound to me as if he's borderline abusive. He's hurting you until you want to leave and then switching into somebody else until you stay, then slipping back to hurting you again. You don't know which way is up and are doubting yourself and your ability to judge your own feelings. These are all hallmarks of an abusive relationship. I'm sorry. I hope I'm not saying something that's hard to hear, and I may be wrong. It's just that I've been there and I feel like I know it when I see it.

@Eckhart I’m so sorry that you went through an abusive relationship and break up. I haven’t been able to get the link to open on my phone yet but I’ll keep trying. Even just the title of it is true, about giving a 20th chance etc... I have wondered, because they’re always “small” things individually, at what point do I finally draw the line and leave. Their have been so many times that I’ve had the thought that I can’t do this anymore, normally when I’m in tears because once again he just won’t listen to me. But somehow a couple of hours later it’s swept under the rug and I’m carrying on as normal focussing on his good points and hoping that things will change and that he’ll suddenly care about my voice and not try to shut me down for having a different opinion.

It’s really hard to consider that I may have been being used or manipulated after we’ve been together so long as I like to think that I’m a strong person - but I know that in the relationship I’m not. I’m confused and anxious, unhappy but also worrying that it’s my fault that he’s unhappy and trying not to be too “needy”. And even feel guilty for even considering that I may be being manipulated, as I don’t want to be unfair to him. I have tried to read up on things and ways to help the relationship as much as I could and did see a bit of a red flag in the way he’s lied to me in the past - in that he tried to turn it back on me and wriggle out of it. I think that’s what totally blew my trust - the fact that had I not have had concrete proof he would have carried on showing me pictures of his cousin with a horse until I apologised for questioning him. I probably should have left then, but the fact that I didn’t has made it harder since because my husband points out how long ago it was and that he’s not done anything since the pay rise one (taking his word for that obviously). The fact that I have seen him lie so brazenly to my face though - I know that he can now. Part of me is annoyed with myself for taking part of the blame when he lied - that he’d lied because he knew I’d “kick off” and not want him to go, and he’d lied because I’d been managing the finances wrong and he just needed his own money. But as you said you end up not knowing which way is up and down and it’s easy to make excuses as I want to be a reasonable person. Yesterday I told him that I just want to feel like I’m important to my husband, and he said he doesn’t understand why I don’t feel like that now and could I explain it - which was hard to do, other than the big examples of when he’s left me when I’m upset etc, so then I start to doubt myself again about where my feelings are coming from.

I do wonder whether a break would help to give me chance to hear my own “inner voice” more clearly. But it confused me when my mum tried to talk me out of it and said it’s the same as a split and I should try again after lockdown rather than be hasty etc. It surprised me that she said that as she’s given me the impression in the past that she doesn’t like him very much after the way he’s spoken to me sometimes in front of her.

Hopefully the link will work soon, thank you again

@Eckhart It hurts that I feel like I’m being trained sometimes too. If I’m behaving in a way he likes he’s positive and nice to be around, if I’m not he’s withdrawn and passive aggressive. I was on a family zoom call a couple of weeks ago and started talking about my job (which he doesn’t like as a general rule, he thinks I talk about work too much) and I saw him lean back in the chair and start watching the TV instead while I was talking with no expression on his face. It felt like when you’re in an interview and you know you’re not saying the right thing because the interviewer isn’t writing. When I said something to him about it he said he’d already heard the story and had nothing to say so had leaned back - but said it’s not like he was sitting there playing on his phone like my mums husband had done at an earlier point in the zoom call. Things like that make me feel unimportant but it’s not stuff you can “prove” it’s just how you feel? Argh!

@SarahMcDonald Thats really helpful to know, thank you. I had assumed I wouldn’t get any child support if my husband was paying for half of the children’s stuff - by which I mean half of their classes and half of their childcare. But it makes sense to work it more as paying for the days on which you’re responsible - as that would probably work out the same as I figured we’d probably alternate weekends and and split the week but at least it gives you control over how you choose to manage your days, e.g if you want to take a day off in the school holidays rather than use holiday club. We’ve both opted out of our workplace pensions for now while we have such hefty childcare bills.

The problem with him paying for things while the children are with you is that he can end up thinking that he’s doing you a favour and stop at any time.

Many men agree to a pattern of childcare / child support and then stop after a few weeks/ months as they realise how much work / money it is and how much it encroaches in their social life.

Many fathers are used to only having sole care For their own children for a few hours a month. And that’s when the child’s mother has already provided all meal, clothes, toys and arranged activities and done all the wife work. Even then, many of them can’t cope and have to take The children to their own mothers to look after.

So it’s a huge shock for them to actually realise how much work it is and they frequently become angry and resentful. This anger is fuelled when they meet someone else and she encourages him not to waste his time / money on his kids. You see it all the time here.

So it’s much better to have a system where he pays for the kids (childcare etc ) when he has them. Many men try to have a system where they ony have kids on weekends, so they don’t have to pay and their ex has the full childcare costs.

Then their new Gf complains about no child free time for her and it drops to EOW. Suddenly he’s only got the kids 2- 4 nights a month, the mum has 100% of the child care costs and still no child support.

And also he expect his ex to cover say 12 of the 13 weeks of school holidays.

So if he always has them set days / nights then it’s his job to sort childcare during holiday or when they are sick and can’t go to childcare. It’s his job to look after them if HE is sick.

It’s very hard to move from a position of mum being default carer and dad “helping out “ when he has some free time AND the activity appeals to him AND no one is sick . Which is often what women mean when they say “ he’s a great dad”.

@Sarahmcdonald I can honestly say that he is a great dad (other than his snappiness) - he covers as many sick days as I do, looks after the youngest one day a week the same as I do (goes to nursery 3 days) and generally does 50% of everything other than overnight when he’s not good at getting up and can be snappy so I tend to just deal with things myself. But he has got better at that, and it’s being able to see his good points that makes all this so hard.

Either way though I can totally see that it’s much “cleaner” having designated days and that’s really helpful advice so thank you for sharing it. That’s definitely the route I would look to go down now that I’ve had it pointed out to me!

That good that he is indeed a great dad. However none of that will stop if you separate. If anything, he will get MORE of a chance to spend Quality time with his children And do all the parenting, even the bits that are no fun ( like overnights ).

Your children are young and will adapt very quickly.

What’s relevant your decision to separate is - is he a great husband? You are not thinking of splitting up to punish him for being a shit parent. It’s because your marriage is making you very unhappy.

You have tried to fix it and it’s not worked. He refuses to do anything to fix it. So it’s beyond repair.

It doesn’t Have to be about whose fault that is. He might be right that’s it’s all your fault. Maybe you are controlling, over sensitive, too demanding and need to be more laid back.

And if that’s the case, he will be glad if you leave and you can both remain single or find someone else who is better suited to you. There’s no point in you spending the next 30 years making each other unhappy.

Maybe thinking about it in terms of incompatibility is easier than making it all about blame?

What would he have done if you'd been snappy when you had to get up for the kids in the night? Would he have covered it for you, and then seen it as a good point in you that you were getting better at it?

Him doing his share of the child care except when he's in a mood, is NOT a plus point. Doing your share of childcare, regardless of mood, is a given. That's the minimum to expect. He's not quite pulling his weight, you are picking up the slack, and you're using this as one of the reasons to stay with him. None of his 'positives' that you've listed are actually positives. They're just areas where he doesn't make you feel crap and inadequate.