DD4 wants to live with dad.

[greysome]

Looking for some advice regarding my dd4. She is an only child and me and exH split up 18 months ago. When we were together he looked after her 2 days a week and was working much of the rest of the week. We did not have days off together and didn’t see much of each other evenings or mornings. I did the evening and morning stuff, and the weekend with her alone, and he had her 2 days during the week whilst I was working and he was off, if that makes sense.

Since we split up exH has daughter 2.5 days (3 nights) a week, every week. He has always been pushing for more contact but I feel it’s a reasonable split for her age and he is currently living in a caravan in his parents garden so not ideal arrangement. Potentially relevant, exH was emotionally abusive to me (although I still struggle really accepting that). DD4 has been becoming progressively upset about how much she misses daddy, and how much she wishes we were all together. This has been ongoing since we split and has intensified over the last few months. It has now reached the point where she is sobbing every evening, and on various occasions throughout the day, about how much she misses daddy and wants to be with him. She has made mention of worrying about daddy and daddy being all alone during these moment too. Therefore I have tried to reassure her of this and spoken to my ex (not easy) to ask him to reassure her he isn’t lonely. However nothing I say seems to have any impact. She tells me daily I do not love her as much as daddy does, she loves him more and she wants to be with daddy always and live with him.

I really don’t know how to respond to this. I want to validate her feelings, I want her to feel safe to talk to me and listened to, but I also don’t want to feed into this too much.

It’s happening every day. She could be having a great day or playing with friends and it still happens. She is basically inconsolable.

I would really like some advice on how to handle this? I’ve tried cuddling, reassuring, telling her she will see daddy again soon and she will always have time with daddy. I have also said it’s important for all children to have time with daddy and mummy too, and that I look forward to and enjoy my time with her as well. I try not to say I miss her or it upsets me as I really don’t want to be putting any responsibility for my feelings on to her.

I try not to make assumptions about my exH behaviour. However I did feel very responsible for his feelings during our relationship and I worry the same pattern is occurring. I am concerned about some of the things she is saying, e.g daddy says every time I see the moon to know he is missing me... which I think could be contributing. She has also said things are ‘secrets from mummy’ and about ‘going against daddy’ when she tells one of these ‘secrets’.

I guess I’m just really worried about losing her. Of course I’m upset on a personal level about what she says but I can handle that separately. It’s just so hard seeing her breaking her heart on a daily basis and not knowing what to do. Any advice would be much appreciated

The stuff about secrets is out of order.

When my daughter is going on about missing my ex, I try to swallow my ego a bit and comfort her as much as I can. I know, there there, it’s OK etc

Sure she’ll get sick of the caravan pretty quick if it comes to that!

It sounds like DD is being manipulated speak your HV fast, especially about the secrets and going against Daddy etc.

You need this evidenced in case you end up in court...

What RandomMess said. Given what she's saying about how daddy loves her more and he misses her and is lonely without her I think he's telling her these things and manipulating her. I think from what I've seen on here parental alienation is illegal in the UK. If you can afford it I'd get legal advice as well as speaking to your HV. The secrets and going against daddy thing is worrying.

What do you reply when she says she's going against daddy by telling you things? Personally I'd say something like 'mummy and daddy both love you very much and you don't need to keep secrets from your parents. That no one should be telling you secret things and saying she can't share those things with you. That she can always talk to you about anything. That if she's worried about these secrets she can tell you and you'll help take the worry away'

And when she says daddy loves her more. I'd be telling her that "mommy and daddy both love her as much as its possible and both miss her when she's not there, but that she doesn't need to worry about that because it's mommy and daddy's job to look after her, that she doesn't need to look after you or daddy.'

Is he emotionally abusing her? This sounds extreme. Maybe you should speak to a child psychologist/expert and have her assessed?

Maybe suggest she keeps a diary to show him about what she gets up to when he isn't around? Has he been dripping into her ear he is alone /lonely?

I find the secrets thing very concerning. I don’t get on amazingly with my ds’s dad but we do both agree that there is nothing we say to them which can’t be repeated to the other parent (this also stops any emotional threats of I will tell daddy you said that!) - I don’t know what your ex is like as a person but at best he finds it gratifying that she misses him so much and is inadvertently fuelling it. At worst he is deliberately manipulating her. I think it is definitely worth flagging this to a professional.

Also, whilst I don’t agree with parents criticising each other to their children arc I also don’t believe in teaching them to accept and normalise unreasonable behaviour. It’s a very difficult and fine line to tread, and obviously varies with the age of the child - but there have been times I have had to explain to mine why I don’t agree with something their dad has said and done and why, in quite a neutral way - we have a big problem in our family of ignoring unhealthy behaviour and I’d like to break that pattern.

He's manipulating her. I'm talking from experience. She was very young when you split. You living separately is her normal so I don't think this something driven by her own true feelings. He has her almost 50% of the time. It's fair for her to have time with you too.

I don't have all the answers about dealing with an emotionally manipulative ex as I'm sure reasoning with him about the impact he's having on her will make no difference. It is probably something that will pass. Reassure her that daddy has lots of friends and his parents to keep him company when she isn't there and that he wants her to be happy all the time, including when she's with you. He wouldn't want her worrying about him. It's a white lie but one he can't really argue with without it being obviously manipulative. It's what he should want.

I've always said to my son that we don't keep "sad secrets" from mummy & daddy. A sad secret is something which makes you feel sad or causes worry. This is different to a "happy secret" which would be things like a birthday present we've bought together for someone else - "don't tell nana we've bought her X for her birthday".
I have no idea if this is this is a right way of doing things but it works & feels comfortable in our family

Parental alienation is an offence. I would seek legal advice about his parenting... Keeping secrets is dangerous..

Poor kid he's dripping poison in her ear. Manipulating her. I'd talk to the HV and a Solicitor.
I always told my kids, we don't keep secrets, they aren't good. We only keep quiet about surprises, they are happy things, like parties and presents.
Secrets mustn't be kept from Mummy and Daddy as they need to look after you.

You should be counteracting what he is saying to her, for instance, “ No Daddy isn’t lonely, he is with Grandma & Grandpa”, “No one could love you more than Mummy does” etc etc.
He’s clearly putting all this into her mind.

I’d agree about getting her assessed by a child psychologist so you’ve got something on record. Once you’ve seen the report, you can consider if you need to take legal action against him, the “keeping secrets from Mummy” is ringing alarm bells for me.

It’s worrying that she’s crying about him even when involved with doing other things. He sounds quite a damaged individual, and he’s doing a good job of ensuring that she is too.

As per pps, it sounds like he is manipulating her. I would look for counselling and support for her urgently.

And get legal advice about parental alienation.

Regarding the secrets, every time this has come up I've made it very clear there's no need to keep secrets and that there should be no secrets between mummy or to daddy. I've had several conversations separate to this about how keeping secrets isn't good and you can always tell mummy and daddy anything, and also to tell us if anyone asks you to keep secrets. Obviously it seems all this is being undermined by my ex.

I never tell her to keep anything secret and I try never to even imply she shouldn't tell daddy anything. Interestingly she says in the car several times of way to seeing daddy, " I will tell daddy I cried for him" and when I say "why?" She responds that she has to tell daddy everything and she can't keep secrets!

It just feels like everything I say to try and comfort her falls completely on deaf ears and she is very engrossed with him and their relationship. The entire time she is with me she's counting down till she's back at daddies.

I guess I swing between thinking he is doing something that's having this effect on her, and then thinking maybe this is a normal reaction? Maybe he really is just a great dad and I'm a shit mum and she's missing him. I definitely have more boundaries and routines with her, and I guess that's less fun when you're 4. Also the impacts of lockdown and massive restriction on the broadness of her world.

For full disclosure the other upheaval has been my DP moving in, which happened 3 months ago. Dd gets along well with him and there have never been any issues so to speak but obviously this is another bug change. Everyone knows there place with in it, and I've had several conversations with her about how daddy is her only daddy and never to be replaced. I spend time just me and her for a decent chunk of everyday and we have at least one day where I have her alone each week during my 4.5 days. I'm terrified that none the less this is what's damaging her and I'm unsure how to rectify it. To clarify this upset far precedes DP moving in or her even meeting DP, but could certainly be a contributing factor at the moment.

I've been considering speaking to my old therapist, who specialises in abusive relationships. She is the person I saw before and after leaving exH so I could ask her for some advice. She also works with children. However I'm a bit concerned she will be biased from what I've told her about the relationship and I'm aware that's all my perspective so maybe it would be best to find some one different for DD to speak to. I would need to tell my exH though and I think he would want to know all the details of the upset, which I am reluctant to do.

I suppose I never really achieve clarity on wether my exH was emotionally abusive, as I just couldn't figure out if it was him or if it was actually me. And despite having a thread on here at the time, and reading a lot, and having a therapist I still didn't have the conviction. However in the end I decided what ever the cause everyone was unhappy and leaving was the right decision. Now I feel like I'm back on the same carousel of 'is he abusive or is it me?' But this time with my DD.

It is pretty soon after your split to have moved in a new man: what was the hurry? Have you spent much time on your own at all between relationships? It's quite common for someone to end up in further abusive relationships, so I would be concerned that you're running a lot of risk and fast-forwarding through a period where you really should have done some work on recovery and boundaries. Your dd may well be acting out because of the speed of it all.

I don't think you can afford not to get your dd some support.

I did see a therapist for over 6 months at the end of marriage and afterwards. I am confident that my current relationship is not abusive and that there isn't anything damaging that DD is seeing in that relationship. However I do completely accept that it was another change for her and may well be contributing to her upheaval. Circumstances have played some part in when we chose to live together but I honestly felt that it was a good time for DD and have worked hard to ensure we have a lot of time just us two. In fact with lock down I have been able to have more time with her the two of us then I normally would in a week due to work and childcare.

I think I will try to arrange a session with my old therapist for myself and see what advice she can give on finding someone to talk to my dd, wether that is her or a colleague. And some advice on how I should respond to DD and try to make a positive impact on the situation.

I will tell daddy I cried for him" and when I say "why?" She responds that she has to tell daddy everything and she can't keep secrets!

He's emotionally abusing her.
He's deliberately playing with and manipulating her feelings.

I'd have a very open and firm chat with her about everything.
Validate her feelings about missing her dad/old set up, but i think it would be a good idea to read up on emotional abuse so YOU know how to manage this with her.

I'd keep a journal of this too, it will definitely come in handy later....

DD4 has been becoming progressively upset about how much she misses daddy, and how much she wishes we were all together. This has been ongoing since we split and has intensified over the last few months

So you broke up with ex 18 months ago....and whilst she was upset about it you started giving your time and attention to another man, who you moved in 3 months ago?
So you didn't really focus on your dd?
Your priority was finding another man to play house with?

And you wonder why she wants to be with the parent who IS giving her attention?

YOU haven't even processed or accepted the emotional abuse YOU have suffered....you have no idea how to protect yourselves from it....yet you've gone and moved another guy in?

This is messed up.

This is really sad and there’s a couple of things that are concerning a 4 year old shouldn’t be counting down the hours till she sees her dad again if there’s a regular arrangement which there seems to be.

The secrets part is totally inappropriate and it needs to stop I wouldn’t be happy to let my child go.

The situation you explained has this got worse within the last 3 months? When exactly after the split did your daughter seemed to start displaying distress.

Wow that’s a hell of an update!
I think you moved a new man in way too fast. No wonder she’s upset.

@monkeymonkey2010

DD4 has been becoming progressively upset about how much she misses daddy, and how much she wishes we were all together. This has been ongoing since we split and has intensified over the last few months

So you broke up with ex 18 months ago....and whilst she was upset about it you started giving your time and attention to another man, who you moved in 3 months ago?
So you didn't really focus on your dd?
Your priority was finding another man to play house with?

And you wonder why she wants to be with the parent who IS giving her attention?

YOU haven't even processed or accepted the emotional abuse YOU have suffered....you have no idea how to protect yourselves from it....yet you've gone and moved another guy in?

This is messed up.

So you're not even going to acknowledge the fact that this child sounds like she's being manipulated? It's all the mother's fault, as per usual. I don't agree with moving someone in straight away but it's not my life and I don't know the ins and outs of OPs life.

OP, this man is damaging your child. I don't have any advice because I haven't been through this, but I hope you're able to speak to someone about this. Like someone else said, speaking to a child psychologist sounds like the right move. You are not a crap mother. You seem great. He's the one who seems like a rubbish parent. Don't put yourself down because of this man.

So why wont you let your DD see her father more? Try letting her stay with him Monday to Friday and every other weekend and see what effect it has on her. I dont understand why you would put your DD through this when their is a solution?

Wow, I’ve never read anyone so unsure about whether they’ve been abused or not, especially in spite of talking about it to multiple sources as well.

Are you ‘confused’ because you don’t want to believe you were abused although others are strongly convinced you are? As that’s what it sounds like?!

If so, well, I know that I’d be doing some soul searching about why I’m tying myself in knots denying abuse?!

I’d be asking myself what it means to you and why others appear to be able to name stuff as abuse repeatedly, and you... can’t? Don’t want to? Why is that?

I know I’m focusing on the one bit of the story you don’t want anyone to focus on, that you are trying to brush off as irrelevant etc, but until you sort this out in your head, I think you are going to continue to have issues around being able to see what’s really going on. What’s really going on for you in the past and in the present, and what’s really going on for your daughter perhaps in the past, but crucially, for her right now, in the present.

Because her ‘mixed up’ and confusing relationship hasn’t finished with this guy, although yours has. And just like you before her, she’s having real difficulties trying to see her own self in this relationship, where it should be her father revolving around her needs, but he’s neatly trained her already so it’s her, a FOUR YEAR OLD, running around subsuming her own needs for her fathers needs.

I doubt she can even name her own needs, as he’s trained her to believe His needs ARE her needs, and that as soon as she’s not with him she’s not fulfilling her purpose, which is to tend to the needs of her father. His sweepingly powerful and all important needs... humm.

Is this what you want your daughter to learn as her imprint for relationships for life? Once it's programmed in her brain at this age, she will be vulnerable to abuse for the rest of her life.

I know it’s unfair and you’d much rather forget about it all and dive into a shiny fun new relationship etc, but your ex hasn’t changed and your daughter needs your help.

I know I don’t sound very sympathetic exactly, but I am, it’s not fair, and it’s not your fault, it’s his fault, but sadly as he isn’t behaving right, you need to balance that out and try and protect her as much as humanly possible.
And to do that, you need to get your head straight. Until then you’ll just standing on the sidelines and watch history repeat itself... Which is a luxury you can’t afford, not whilst your daughter needs saving.

Parental Alienation. Act quickly because this is something the courts come down very hard on, with good reason. This is not normal behaviour for a 4 year old and it sounds a bit intense and weird also tbh.

Your poor daughter.

She has a emotional manipulative father and a mother who appears to not be her rock, her safe place but a woman who has upheaved her life and is not protecting her.

You are allowing this man to abuse your daughter. He abused YOU and you are standing by letting him make your daughter become an anxious, paranoid mess. She is four years old!

Personally, I would have a talk with your ex letting him know you know what he is doing and it needs to stop. If he refuses, I would stop contact and tell him to pay to go to court. Put your daughter first above your current partner and your ex.