DD4 wants to live with dad.

[greysome]

Looking for some advice regarding my dd4. She is an only child and me and exH split up 18 months ago. When we were together he looked after her 2 days a week and was working much of the rest of the week. We did not have days off together and didn’t see much of each other evenings or mornings. I did the evening and morning stuff, and the weekend with her alone, and he had her 2 days during the week whilst I was working and he was off, if that makes sense.

Since we split up exH has daughter 2.5 days (3 nights) a week, every week. He has always been pushing for more contact but I feel it’s a reasonable split for her age and he is currently living in a caravan in his parents garden so not ideal arrangement. Potentially relevant, exH was emotionally abusive to me (although I still struggle really accepting that). DD4 has been becoming progressively upset about how much she misses daddy, and how much she wishes we were all together. This has been ongoing since we split and has intensified over the last few months. It has now reached the point where she is sobbing every evening, and on various occasions throughout the day, about how much she misses daddy and wants to be with him. She has made mention of worrying about daddy and daddy being all alone during these moment too. Therefore I have tried to reassure her of this and spoken to my ex (not easy) to ask him to reassure her he isn’t lonely. However nothing I say seems to have any impact. She tells me daily I do not love her as much as daddy does, she loves him more and she wants to be with daddy always and live with him.

I really don’t know how to respond to this. I want to validate her feelings, I want her to feel safe to talk to me and listened to, but I also don’t want to feed into this too much.

It’s happening every day. She could be having a great day or playing with friends and it still happens. She is basically inconsolable.

I would really like some advice on how to handle this? I’ve tried cuddling, reassuring, telling her she will see daddy again soon and she will always have time with daddy. I have also said it’s important for all children to have time with daddy and mummy too, and that I look forward to and enjoy my time with her as well. I try not to say I miss her or it upsets me as I really don’t want to be putting any responsibility for my feelings on to her.

I try not to make assumptions about my exH behaviour. However I did feel very responsible for his feelings during our relationship and I worry the same pattern is occurring. I am concerned about some of the things she is saying, e.g daddy says every time I see the moon to know he is missing me... which I think could be contributing. She has also said things are ‘secrets from mummy’ and about ‘going against daddy’ when she tells one of these ‘secrets’.

I guess I’m just really worried about losing her. Of course I’m upset on a personal level about what she says but I can handle that separately. It’s just so hard seeing her breaking her heart on a daily basis and not knowing what to do. Any advice would be much appreciated

If a mum posted on here saying her child had decided they didn't want to spend time with their dad because a new partner had moved in with him, she would be told by many MNers to respect her child's wishes and reduce/stop contact. Yet, with the sexes reversed, everyone is saying the opposite. The double standards on this site, regarding mums and dads, are quite breathtaking.

For what it's worth, I think it does sound like her dad is being manipulative, but the poor child has had a lot of upheaval at her mum's house recently!

I know that some of my exH behaviour was emotionally abusive, and financially abusive. I suppose I struggle to label it that way because I still feel our relationship was a dynamic between us, in which I played a part and that really I should have known from much earlier that it wasn’t the right thing to do. It’s hard to explain all the detail but the relationship nearly ended early on but I found myself unexpectedly pregnant and then the baby was still born. It was very traumatic and our shared grief cemented things for a while. Having our dd and getting married seemed the right thing at the time, but with hindsight I can see this wasn’t the rational thought through decision, and was largely fuelled by grief and my guilt and desire to make things better. I certainly have my own tendency to act co-dependently, learned from my own childhood. My exH had a very toxic upbringing and I think we fell into a relationship where we both replayed our own traumatic childhood patterns.

Therefore although I know his behaviour was wrong and the relationship unhealthy for us all (hence why I ended it) I do find it hard to pin it all on him being abusive. I don’t believe his abuse was intentional, more that his view of love and relationships and his deep insecurity mean he can’t do things healthily. I also honestly believe he loves dd to the best of his abilities, but I fear he doesn’t have the capacity to do that in a way that’s not damaging to some extent.

I guess in a nutshell I feared that her relationship with him might be damaging to some extent (but hoped it wouldn’t). However I’m also aware of how damaging it would be not to have a relationship with him, and in fairness to him he always shows up on time and is keen to be very involved in her life, he has always been consistent with that.

I completely accept that my DP moving in is an upheaval for her, and is something I can actively work on and research how to improve the situation for her. I honestly felt that it was the right time and a good situation for her, but I understand it’s another change and needs delicate handling. I appreciate that she needs as much stability as possible right now, which is my focus for her.

In saying that my ex is abusive and focusing on that, I feel that I am in danger of pinning any problems on him. I also don’t want to make assumptions regarding him based on my previous experience as obviously my dd relationship with him is not the same as my own. When is speak to friends and family in real life, they instantly attribute dd upset to him and something he must be doing, but I don’t want to miss something else that’s going on which I can resolve and is within my control. Obviously I am not a perfect parent and have things I can improve for her too.

I also don’t want to be allowing her to be in a damaging situation and not protecting her from it. I want to do the best I can by her and it feels like there are so many variables involved in the situation that I don’t want to go down the wrong path. Which is why I wanted an external opinion of what might be going on for her, and how I can best respond to it. I personally don’t know what is ‘normal’ behaviour for her in this situation and part of me thought perhaps her upset was a reasonable reaction, although to me it feels extreme. Of course I was worried that it was the result of the way he was behaving or of how I was handling things but having never been in this position before and having no friends that have I didn’t have much of a frame of reference. I swing between thinking he is potentially emotionally abusing/ manipulating her (perhaps inadvertently) or that it’s normal for her to be still adjusting and missing him, that DP moving in is a change, that lock down and missing school and hobbies is disruptive. Of course it could be all of those things. If I go in guns blazing, blaming it all on my ex and stopping or reducing contact, that could be more damaging and not the right factor to be focusing on. The thought of failing to protect her is horrendous.

I really want her to have a good relationship and time with him, and with me. I just want to do what’s best by her.

Zombiefan, I'm not keen to increase time with him, partly because of the worry that his behaviour is attributing to the upset. Partly because his living situation is not ideal (think I mentioned up thread that he is living in a caravan in his parents garden). Also because he has dd 3 nights a week already and I feel that it's important she has time with me too.

My, you sound like a yo-yo. Back and forth, back and forth.

If you want things to remain as they are, why bother posting?

Your daughter is obviously being emotionally manipulated, she is a four year old girl. You are allowing it to continue as to not 'rock the boat' it also appear you also don't want to give up your child free days? Let be honest here, you are worried about that too.

You have a responsibility as a mother and a duty of care. You need to investigate why she feels this way and get support from professionals. At 4 she should not be feeling emotional trauma, it is heartbreaking. Allow this to continue and she will have bigger mental health issues as she gets older. Take responsibility!

Giving up my child free days is no concern at all. I would love to have dd with me more often, I miss her terribly and before we split I had only ever had 2 nights away from her ever. The reason I agreed to the access arrangement in place was because exH was keen to have her this often, and was stating he would take me to court if I didn't agree. Given that the court would likely have approved 50/50 access anyway, I felt that 40/60 and keeping things amicable was the best decision at the time. I wanted to encourage a good relationship between them and felt that me missing her or wanting her more was my own feelings to deal with and would be selfish to base access decisions on.

I think you need to trust yourself a little more and be prepared to take a harder line with him to protect your daughter. You don't give up your daughter to an emotionally abusive man living in a caravan. What is up with you people? Suspect these are dads, OP.

You are trying very hard to be balanced and fair and that's wonderful. Now however I think you need to take a step back and say regardless of your dp moving in the fact that your daughter is so distraught about daddy is just not normal.

Planting this stuff in the mind of a 4 year old is abuse. Treat it as such and I hope you get the specific advice on here I've seen before - it's excellent. This is parental alienation and you need all kinds of people involved (ugh) and a good solicitor. Your aim is not to stop contact but to reduce it to 50/50 or even 60/40 to you and to have him on notice that if he continues with this appalling behaviour he will find it's even less.

Currently you're allowing it and he's using your lack of action to abuse the situation even more. She will end up so fucked up if he continues so please step up now.

Find out what the official steps are, start logging, recording, reporting. This has to stop.

They are talking more about adverse reactions by the child but I still think it counts and you should get them involved. Takes time though especially at the moment www.cafcass.gov.uk/grown-ups/parents-and-carers/divorce-and-separation/parental-alienation/

From a solicitors website - very useful if he is forced to do therapy on this! The blog was written in 2019. You could ask Cafcass because it makes you seem reasonable (which you are)

Likewise, parents who believe their child is at risk from the other parent are offered hope by a new initiative. This is valuable for those who require expert help to ensure the real risk is identified and assessed so they are not wrongly labelled as manipulating the child to their own ends.

CAFCASS (the Child and Family Court Advisory and Support Service) has been piloting a project to give parents intense therapy to change their behaviour. This is in cases where parental manipulation of a child is identified. If therapy is refused or unsuccessful then the ultimate sanction of the courts is given: transferring residence of the child (which parent a child should live with) to the other parent.

Given that the court would likely have approved 50/50 access anyway

That's a very naive and dangerous assumption. Given the level of emotional abuse she is suffering a court may well reduce the current level quite significantly.

Never ever assume anything where the welfare of your child is involved.

Could this be about money?

He wants her to be with him so he can claim benefits which would also possibly help him move up any waiting list for a council house/flat?

I can't see if you have mentioned maintenance.

It sounds like he is being manipulative, Daddy is lonely without you, I love you more than Mummy does etc etc.

Interesting point. I think the OP mentioned financial abuse. He's not going to stop that is he? Just because they are apart. I think assuming the best of him right now is dangerous, and I think he's dangerous.

I'm guessing neither have loads of money so private psychologists and expensive solicitors are probably not an option but there are state options and they take longer but get there in the end if you persist.

Start the process OP and keep ringing, reminding etc.

I don't know what his parents are like. One is probably just like him. If they are not like him and are not also working behind the scenes to get full custody it might be possible to have a heart to heart stressing that DGD is being harmed, that SS is going to be involved, and that the end result might be a lot less contact and that the OP really really doesn't want that and so if they can in any small way intervene That would really help everyone. Be nice, but be clear this is abuse. Children of 4 don't do this on their own.

But I doubt they are ok. However, plant the seeds of 'hes about to fuck this up big time if he doesn't stop' and the results for them too might be a good warning. very subtly though do not give them any ammunition.

But I think the PP is right. He wants a council house and benefits and full custody will give him that. Plus he's a spiteful manipulative cunt,

ZombieFan presumably because your "solution" is sending a 4 year old to live with an emotional abuser who's manipulating her.

If a 4 year old with cavities cried for sweets in the supermarket would you criticise her mother for letting her be upset when there is a solution, in that lovely party pack of friendly gummy bears?

He abused you and now he is continuing that abuse through your daughter.

Regardless of whether you agree with what I have said, you know her behaviour with respect to her dad is concerning.

You must start to do something about it. Start keeping a diary of what she says concerning her dad, her behaviour, so you have a timeline. Please speak to your old counsellor. If she feels it is inappropriate to speak to your daughter given the relationship you had with her she can refer you to someone else.

However the answer is not indecision and maybe this maybe that. No, your little girl is distressed and you need to do something.

Yep.. this is unusual for a 4 year old! I’d use this as a reason to go for full custody!

This article should give you a head start in understanding the dynamics of the type of relationship that your ex seems to be developing with your very small daughter. It is a fact that if your daughters relationship with her father isn't dealt with appropriately, she will grow up to believe that is her responsiblity to make others happy. This would ensure her adult life is one with much pain and confusion. Please help her.

www.goodtherapy.org/blog/enmeshment-and-blurred-boundaries-emotional-incest-explained-0210204

Have you considered OP that she may never be able to have a "good relationship" with this damaged, abusive man?

You, an adult woman, struggled to maintain a sense of self when with him, so how is a four year old going to survive intact?

She has had huge changes in her life in such a very short time, no wonder she is finding it all so distressing. She is desperately seeking stability and security in her chaotic world.
Moving the new man in so quickly not only destabilised her life further, but played right into the hands of your Ex.

That's where the talk of "Daddy being lonely", stems from, because your Ex no doubt tells her that Mummy isn't lonely now Mummy has a new man, and it explains the "Daddy love you more", comments too.

You've got some serious thinking to do, and some difficult decisions to make, the focus should be on your little daughter and how the rest of her life is going to be.

Your posts are all about how you feel and how you were treated etc with little consideration for your DD and the upheaval she’s been through. Maybe you should consider letting her live with her dad or at least giving him more access as she sounds unhappy living with with you and your new boyfriend.

This isn't about your DD really wanting to live with your DH. It's about you and her and that's what's really going on.
What she is saying in a coded way is...'I don't feel like I am your special little girl anymore. I feel Daddy might love me more because something has happened in this household/dynamic and I am feeling pushed aside by you. That you don't have time for me anymore or you seem to be very busy and pre-occupied with something else these days. I want my Mummy closer to me and for her to tell me I am safe and that she loves me'. Each night at bedtime talk about everyone in her family extended family and say Grandad (or whoever) or Favorite teddy is safe and sound, then Dad is safe and sound, Mummy is safe and sound and DD4 is safe and sound, now off to sleep'. To provide reassurance and safety about people she loves who are not immediately present.
I think if you spend 20mins every day doing something really nice with your DD, like a puzzle or a game she likes that will improve things. Rather than spend all this time and distraction with this Ex side of things. Really just lean in to your daughter and improve the quality time with just the two of you. Enhance the bond by kind of regressing your behaviour and treating her more like a smaller child for a while. Is there a possibility you have been more pre-occupied with your thoughts than usual and not available to her. There could be a part of you that is a bit angry or annoyed with her too. That's OK to feel that too. You are talking a lot about the Ex and all that.
Put your focus back onto your daughter and getting closer to her and having fun playing with her and just sharing nice simple time with her.

She has also said things are ‘secrets from mummy’ and about ‘going against daddy’ when she tells one of these ‘secrets’.

bloody huge red flag :-(

We had a very similar situation with DHs ex. The kids started crying and screaming when they had to come to ours saying they 'had to stay with mummy'.

My DH spent a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of it and one of the children told us that mummy says she is alone in the house when we go and it makes her sad, that Daddy has Balkin and she doesn't have anyone else when they go.

They were so upset at the thought of mummy sat at home sad because she was alone.

It stopped eventually but funnily it was only when she got a partner and so wasn't as arsed about them not being there.

It's a really horrid thing to do to your children. You need to speak to him.

I think that seaweeds advice is a good addition too. Spending that one on one fun time if you dont get the chance. She may also open up without prompting and give you some idea what's been said do you know what you are dealing with.

Suspect it's the 'poor me all alone while mummy has that man' stuff though. Which is tough fucking luck on him given that mummy had years of abuse and quite frankly probably deserves a bit of happiness in her life.

@Seaweed42

What she is saying in a coded way is...'I don't feel like I am your special little girl anymore. I feel Daddy might love me more because something has happened in this household/dynamic and I am feeling pushed aside by you. That you don't have time for me anymore or you seem to be very busy and pre-occupied with something else these days. I want my Mummy closer to me and for her to tell me I am safe and that she loves me'

What a monumental load of damaging tosh!!!

I have been keeping a diary from the beginning, which I will continue. I have also booked a session with my old therapist for next week, so hopefully I can get some good advice on how to go forward.

@greysome. He's emotionally abusing her to get to you!

He's putting all this bullshit in her head about how sad Daddy is without her & how he needs her to live there so he's not lonely and sad.

Manipulative wanker!

You need to get some coynselling for her before he does any more damage and get some help from social services & a lawyer.

He doesn't want her 24/7 he just wants to hurt you.

Utter wanker.

Excellent you're seeing your therapist next week, ask if they can recommend anyone for DD