I have no idea who is right

[Cloudwatching57]

Firstly I apologise that this sounds so petty!! This has of course been magnified in lockdown.
We have been married 12 years, 2 children. In general I'm usually fairly happy, though there are things that are less than ideal that I've had to compromise on or deal with eg he is not social at all and doesn't like going out. So I do that alone/with friends.
An argument that rears its head again and again is this:
He says I am overly critical and contrary. So whatever he says, I take the opposite stance or raise the opposite end of the debate. He says I do this to put him down and treat him like a child.
I say there are several reasons for this -

1. He is incredibly negative a lot of the time and I simply can't agree with him that everything's so terrible.
2. We disagree about some things (perhaps a lot) and I don't see anything wrong with saying what I think.
3. I like to consider all sides of an argument and so will raise the other angle often - even if it's not my opinion, I'm just musing out loud.

He says I'm controlling and dictatorial about the house because I say no to some things eg chop down a tree. I point out other things around the house that he had decided on/had final word, but these are apparently small things.

This argument comes about because he has been very silent and moody, staying away from me around the house etc. I've been asking what's going on, why aren't we talking etc and he for days has said nothing's wrong. Finally today said I'm so critical/contrary and it makes him not want to talk to me.

Any thoughts?

An ex always had to play devils advocate no matter what I said, it got to the point that whenever I said anything that was opinion based rather than fact based he would almost automatically say the opposite. I just learned to stop talking as he taught me that my opinion wasn’t worthy and if I expressed one he would be condescending and go out of his way to support the opposite view.

I think I am quite argumentative sometimes OP and that often comes across as criticising my DH. In my case, it comes from deep seated insecurity (probably from growing up) and needing to feel like I'm right about things.

I've learnt to be 'less bothered' about things and it's really helped our communication. When DH commented on something, I asked myself if what I was saying mattered. Was it particularly important for him to understand my view on the matter/situation (eg a parenting decision)? If yes, I would have a discussion sharing my point of view, we had to work a lot on letting each other have a say and coming to an agreement. If no,(like the jogger example) I would try to shrug it off and move on.

Perhaps think of a few non commital phrases to use when he makes negative comments such as 'hmmmm, that's an interesting point of view' 'I hadn't thought of that' 'do you think so' 'what makes you say that' etc

You’re also deeply negative. Putting forward an alternate view point, or an argument, for no more than you like to explore the other side is really just you like to disagree with him. No point dressing it Up

This rings bells with me. Whatever I say to DH, he undermines it and this makes me uncommunicative with him . For instance if I remark on something amusing, interesting or controversial on MN, it is always a ‘plant‘. I am sure he thinks that no real people are on here.

I find him quite disparaging and so, therefore,it easier not to chat without thinking through what I want to say and whether it is worth it. He would, of course, totally deny that he is like this. I don’t know if you can see any similarities between yourself and my DH’ behaviour.

He doesn't feel valued and that is a serious problem in a marriage .

My DH is the same as you. It's exhausting. Google 'oppositional conversational style'.

Very annoying trait and comes across as trying to be intelligent/powerful, when it looks quite insecure. Sorry!

We've spoken about it and I just refer to him as 'Mary' (contrary) when he does it now

Do you think Yr comment sounds as if you're not on his side. This probably sounds ridiculous but it could be taken as you don't support his views. You can't agree on everything I know but when I'm with my DP we agree on alot of things and we are of a similar mindset. You cannot expect to all of the time. That can sometimes come as abit of a shock though. I've had a few almost arguments about things. One on Donald Trump!!!
Florentina1
How do I do bold on this....
Have you thought he might be jealous it sounds silly but you're part of something that he's not, albeit he probably doesn't want to be. You should maybe try it with something in the news Google and find some hidden fact and surprise him and see if he is as disparaging.

My DH can be a bit like this. His thing is that if I disagree with him on something, and so do a number of other people, it can't be that we all actually disagree- I have clearly worked on the others to be against him. At times this is so ridiculous it makes me laugh (there is a particular TV programme he loves and I cannot stand, and as the dc have grown up they have decided they dislike it too, and DH's protestations that it is brilliant and they only dislike it because I have taught them to are hilarious). At other times it really concerns me- such a persecuted mindset to have, such a horrible thing to believe about me, such a worrying sign of being unable to accept that others disagree with him without needing to be organised into it... He also believes at times that I disagree with him just for the sake of disagreeing. I don't. But I am happy to be disagreed with myself, so probably don't realise sometimes that my own disagreements with others positions feel like I am attacking them rather than just holding a different opinion.

Anyway. Sorry, op, this is your thread and idk where all that came from- just wanted to add my voice to those saying you aren't alone in this. I believe a lot of this for my DH comes from his atrocious childhood; whatever happens to me I know I was loved and am loved, and didn't get that same start in life as me, the confidence that he is wanted and loved and that arguments can be overcome and even when you are furious with each other and having a mad disagreement, the love is still there underneath.

What was the programme? Iwalkinmyclothing just put of interest!

Thankfully DH doesn't read MN as he would know this was me immediately if he ever read it- it's Stargate. I enjoyed the film with Kurt Russell, find the programme so tedious it makes me twitch.

I think it depends, I have a friend who will always play 'devil's advocate' when discussing things and I find that very tiresome and it means we didn't ever really resolve anything. When I was getting divorced I just needed someone to listen, but she's always try and see my exh point. I also have a male friend who tried to fix everything, same thing with him.

But you are allowed your opinion, if you don't want a tree cutdown, then there's nothing wrong with saying you don't want to. If he suggested it and your answer was no, I can see why he would be miffed. Your opinion doesn't trump his, you could try discussing it rather than a fiat 'no' as this comes across as 'my decision is final'

I just googled oppositional conversational style - very interesting! I find my DH wearing on occasion and have identified that his tone and facial expression can be 'disagreeing' when his words are agreeing. It's wearing and highly annoying and makes me feel like he has not listened to what I said. When this happens now I say that it sounds like he's disagreeing with me but I'm not sure what he's disagreeing with. I have a colleague who has a horrid man to work with, truly awful and in a position of power. He starts many sentences in a discussion with 'yes but' even when we totally agree which does give away a lot more than he thinks about how much he values others. OP I think you have a communication problem with your OH and perhaps looking at your communication style will shift things forward for both of you. Might your OH also be willing to look at his communication style?

Iwalkinmyclothing.
Stargate.... No I can understand why you wouldn't like that! My exdh also liked that mind you he just watched Wall to wall telly!

Ilovetheseventies
Stargate.... No I can understand why you wouldn't like that!

Careful there, you have clearly been influenced by me to think negatively about the programme just to upset my DH!

I also watch stuff

@alittlerespectgoesalongway, I've just googled too- the first article I read made it clear that it is is not fun for the person on the receiving end!

@Artartart

Do you think of yourself as quite intelligent? Just I'm quite well educated and have come across a few people like you. Who compulsively do the devil's advocate thing as as way of parenting they're having intellectual conversations.

I like to have conversations too but I have opinions I have developed from my knowledge of the world. Maybe we're just very different but I'd find it very annoying to have to counteract poorly thought out random thoughts and arguments constantly. Sounds exhausting. Which is maybe how your partner feel. I'm not sure you're well suited.

I think this is spot on. My ex was like this and I eventually grew to hate having any conversation with him. Sometimes he would take the contrary viewpoint to the extreme e.g. North Korea is not that bad to its people, Putin is a decent guy etc.

He thought that offering any kind of alternative viewpoint made him so more intelligent and capable of a higher level of thinking than other people. When I got a better degree than him he said “well you’re just better at remembering than me but I understand it more”

He was utterly insufferable so I understand your husbands frustration. Granted, you’re unlikely to be as bad as said ex!

Artartart... He could be quiet intelligent but talking about joggers isn't exactly high brow. There are facts and opinions. I suppose if you can back something up with facts then any arguement is valid. Just have to be careful it doesn't end up like that.
It's OK to have a healthy discussion about something it's just how you deal with it.

So he's got you worrying about his feelings. You're tying yourself up in knots to make this something you can change. Follow this to its conclusion. You will agree with him all the time. You won't have different opinions to him. You certainly won't want to discuss something he might find difficult. Doesn't look great does it.

Is he able to be sorry when he's done something wrong? Does he have much empathy for people?

I think I'm like you OP. I'm contrary and love a debate. DP is probably more intellectual than I am and possibly more knowledgeable but as he would say I'm "quick on my feet" and can turn any debate whichever way I want it to go effortlessly, it's a skill which drives him barmy and I kind of get why. I will say this though, sometimes niggling and disagreeing are just a way of couples getting a rise when the bedrooms been a bit quiet for whatever reason.... Does this ring any bells?

Hang on a minute. He is critical of everything eg the jogger but YOU are in the wrong? For what it’s worth, I would have done the same as you. That jogger wasn’t doing anything wrong. Why is it his perogative to criticise other people’s exercise choices but you can’t disagree with that? He started it. He could have said “oh how lovely seeing somebody out exercising” then you probably would have agreed. It sounds like he is starting off negative/critical conversation chains and then getting annoyed with you for not joining in the bashing! I’d suggest couples counselling so somebody neutral can explain this to him. It must feel very unfair to you. As a short term solution rather than opposing him I’d suggest a stock answer “that’s very negative. I support your right to your opinion but I don’t agree. I like to be positive about things like this” so you’re simply asserting your right to your opinion.

One of our children is oxbridge educated and they were taught to be like you - always putting alternate views/arguments into any random conversation when we were just conversing over dinner etc.
It is utterly exhausting and infuriating after a while and we have had to explain this in the kindness way possible to our child so as to make them understand there's a time and place.
I feel for your husband as you definitely need to get it under control otherwise he will give up conversation with you completely as it really is hard work for the other parties.

My dh does the alternative argument thing and it used to drive me mad. He doesn't do it as much after I told him my feelings about it. I just wanted to know his real feelings on a subject, and not him explore his thoughts on it. I'm not very good at articulating my views and it can be very frustrating to have to try and explain why my view is a valid one when I don't know if the one he's giving us his actual view.

Regardless of what he thinks about you not agreeing with him it is abusive to ignore you for days and deny he's ignoring you. And then say yes he was because you don't agree with him. That's not a communication style, its abuse. He's training you to not use your brain and to worry more about his feelings than any level of intimacy. Do you have DC? How does his stonewalling affect your ability to co-parent.

God god don't go to therapy with him. Go on your own. You don't need couples therapy, you need therapy to help you see and call out shitty behaviour.

You sound entirely reasonable to me. I always thought it was one of the most important aspects to any relationship that you got different povs and therefore saw all sides. My dh thought that he was right and became very overbearing and angry if I didn't agree with him.

Don't change; you'll regret it.