Doubts about second child due to IL relationship

[Funnyname]

Hi all,

I was just looking for a bit of advice/to see if anyone has been in a similar situation.

I have very negative feelings towards my husband's parents. I believe they emotionally abused him and his two siblings when they were growing up, as well as regular physical punishment (they would say normal chastisement for the times, I would class as humiliation as a form of punishment and control).

Now that their children are adults they constantly use guilt and manipulation to control their children. I truly haven't observed any interactions at all with their children where guilt/manipulation/games aren't present.

We saw them around 4/5 times a year prior to our child (who's now 19 months) being born. Since our child was born they want to visit more frequently.

Initially whilst I was on maternity leave I was present when they visited. I very quickly found it unbearable and started going out when they were due to visit. Now that I'm back at work (pre-covid) they visit around 2-3 times per month arranged for when I'm at work.

There's not been any arguments or anything said about me not being there - the most I've had is guilt trip texts from MIL about "really missing me".

I do not want people who I believe to have abused their own children to have a relationship with my child and my instincts tell me they will emotionally damage my child. I have been very frank with my husband about my feelings and he says he agrees about his parents behaviour but that they won't have an impact on our child.

My husband is always present when they are with our child.

We are now thinking about having another child and I am concerned about the fact I'll have to see them more frequently again if we have another child (who I would hope to breastfeed so at first couldn't really leave), I think I'd be less likely to bite my tongue at their nonsense (and this would cause my husband even more pain) and I'm not sure I could in good conscience bring another child into the world when I know how much contact they'll have with them (I naively assumed we would continue to see them 4-5 times a year like we did before our child arrived).

Since lockdown my husband is now sending daily videos and pictures of our child - according to my husband elicited by "she's all we have to live for/keep us going during this awful time"

Has anyone been in a similar situation? Any advice?

I can relate OP

I would never make such an important decision dependent on such people, though. If in your heart you want to have another child, don't let these nasty people stop you. You can just refuse to see them more often than you are comfortable with. Set your boundaries and make your own decisions based on what you want.

I'm really confused as to why your response is not to have another child rather than working on reducing contact with your existing and subsequent children.

You think your husband was abused and still manipulated but you arrange for him to be the only barrier between them and your child when hes obviously living under FOG so you absolutely need to be there.

I'm sorry if this upsets but it's like you've accepted your eldest/only child has what you perceive to eventually be a detrimental relationship with them but your out of sight of it so not harmed yourself. Until your husband is able to stand up to his parents you need to protect your child by either stopping contact or at least being present to pick up on bad behaviour.

Sadly your h is wrong, they will have an impact on your child. They have had a deleterious effect on him. He seems very much to still be in a FOG state (fear, obligation and guilt) and he remains very much harmed by his parents. He still wants their approval and sending them constant updates is indicative of him wanting that from them. As for he being with your child this young person could well be harmed right in front of his very eyes. It could be a nasty look, a pinch anything like that really.

These people were not good parents to he or his siblings when they were growing up and such people do not change. They probably also see your child as further opportunity to get back at you and he.

He can keep up a relationship with his parents if he wants to but it does not follow that you and for that matter your child should automatically have to. You are the parent here too and this child also relies on yor good judgment.

I would suggest you read Toxic in-laws by Susan Forward and he should read toxic parents by the same author.

Your husband is still caught up in this so cannot say your child isn't going to be damaged also. It's sounds harsh but at the moment you are only protecting yourself from this by removing house if. Your husband either needs support to see all of this / stand up up to them or you remove / limit your child from the circus by being present and reducing visits again.
How old are ILs and do they have other GC ?

A good rule of thumb here is that if a parent or relative is too toxic/batshit/difficult for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your kids too. Protect your child here, do not keep on allowing this person to be subjected to your inlaws.

Attila Do you mean that if someone acts purely out of fear, obligation and guilt towards their parents/IL does this indicate a 'toxic' relationship that this person should free themselves from?

I don't understand. You think your in laws are damaging your child but you're just letting it happen while planning to protect a non-existent second child by not having that child?

sorry OP. I do get this is hard. but I'm really struggling with this. If your in laws are that bad, you need to be ensuring your live child is already being protected and extend that to any future children. If your in laws just irritate you, that's entirely different to them harming your family.

Have you been able to have an honest conversation with your husband about your reluctance to have another because of the situation with your in laws? It’s absolutely a concern that he is allowing them to project responsibility onto your child to ‘keep them going’. I would be concerned about how that dynamic might evolve.

The current situation sounds untenable. Your husband doesn’t sound able to be firm with his parents despite his agreement with you about their behaviour. I don’t think you can rely on him to prevent them having a negative impact on your child if you continue to make yourself scarce during their visits. I think you need to come to an agreement about how you’re going to address that regardless of whether or not you choose to have another child.

No adult child should ever have to act out of fear, obligation and guilt around their parents.

FOG are but three of many damaging legacies toxic parents leave their now adult children. In the OPs case his parents installed these buttons in him and know how to press them. And as for his, "she's all we have to live for" that sounds like this has come from her (his mother) too.This man is actively looking for his parents approval (approval they will never give him) hence all the stuff being sent by him. What he also fails to realise is that his own inertia when it comes to his own family unit hurts him as well as his own family i.e the OP and their child. Toxic family dysfunction can filter down the generations so leaving the next generation affected too. Its really no legacy to leave them.

Attila Thank you

Not having a longed-for 2nd child because of the iLs is very, IDK, drastic. Is there a reason why you're not talking to your DH about the need for HIM to deal with his past and to put his parent's behaviour in the right perspective? It sounds as if he realizes what they did but is burying his head in the sand. This is especially imperative since he thinks they won't do the same to your (now-existing) child. You make yourself absent when they're there so who is going to protect your child(ren)? Obvs he isn't going to under the present circumstances. He's going to ignore it and tell himself that they 'really aren't that bad' or 'they don't really mean what they say'. Because he doesn't want to confront them and deal with the fallout.

How old is your child? I hope too young to be 'taken in' by their games? Because it does start insidiously young. "You won't kiss Granny/Gramps?" with a sad face is something that a very young child 'feels' even before they can actually understand it. And that's where it begins.

I know it's hard, but first off you must get your DH to understand that he needs help out of the FOG. Then you need to observe your iLs with your child, quietly and from a 'distance'. And if you see manipulative or coercive behaviour, you need to nip it in the bud. And that means low or no contact.

What does your h think about his upbringing? Does he know what you think about his parents? How does he feel about it?

If they are too toxic for you to be around, I honestly can't imagine why you would abandon your child to them.

If they are that bad OP, you need to step up and drastically reduce the amount of time.

Your child needs you.

You're the only parent who sees your In laws clearly.

Focus on saving your existing child before you start thinking about your future children.

I also have toxic in laws and have found ways to cope with the benefit of boundaries and therapy (after PND and a near breakdown where they really capitalised on my 'weakness' and used my poor newborn to win likes with anyone who would listen to their retelling on my birth trauma). You need to stop distancing yourself from them. Dont make any effort to see them but if your child sees them then you must be there. You need to be seeing what is happening and being clear when they are overstepping. I found mine trying to put my 1 year old on a behaviour star chart and forcing her to sit on a potty (which of course they had bought just for their house), repeatedly making nasty comments about DSS and his mum, and a load of other stuff that sounds petty but isnt to me. Similarly there is lots of 'DD is all that keeps us going'. They once brought her home over an hour late, way past dinner time when she was screaming and exhausted, and exclaimed 'but its MILs birthday next week' as if that meant she got 'extra time' with poor frantic DD who just needed dinner and mik at that point. Anyway, I leave DH to make arrangements and deal with fallout. When his parents play games about when they will and wont see him/answer the phone etc he needs to deal with that so he feels the frustration and sees how ridiculous it is, not me. But, I dont leave DD unsupervised. If I'm there I can take her home if needed or point out where they are being inappropriate. This is also helps DH reflect on their behaviour and why they may do it. You need to be calm and firm in dealings with them. Research grey rock and dealing with narcs so you have the knowledge you need and have friends IRL you can vent to. It shouldn't affect you having a second child because you need to improve the overall situation.

Thanks all for your response.

I think part of what makes it very difficult to be there when they are here is that my husband is actually very 'on it' with them in lots of ways. If they do/say anything inappropriate he picks them up on it straight away - the dynamic is that he's like the punitive parent telling his mother "no, don't do that", "that's unacceptable", "don't speak to my child like that", "stop it now". It's like constant 'no' tennis with her keeping pushing boundaries on every little thing. I am scared if I'm here I will lose my temper and then say things to them which will hurt my husband emotionally.

I feel awful about being at work when they are here and wish I could protect my child by them having no contact with her at all. I don't want my child to be manipulated by them and I don't want her to be present when her Dad is having to constantly berate his parents - it makes him tense and will be making her tense even though she's only a toddler.

I've said all of this to my husband. He says he supervises them 100% of the time and challenges anything inappropriate. I believe him but then I also cannot understand why he would want them to have a relationship with our child on those terms.

I've been very honest with him and he knows all of this. He just maintains that every 2 weeks isn't a lot, anything inappropriate will be challenged and that they will not be able to harm our child.

A poster mentioned are they bad or am I just irritated by them. This is part of my fear. I feel like I can clearly see how manipulative and damaging they are and how this is masked to an extent by the fact they are very middle class, professional etc. but I have this fear that maybe I'm just being horrible and intolerant and what if I'm isolating my husband from his family.

Someone asked what my husband thinks of his upbringing - when discussing things he'll say he knows it wasn't ok but I don't think he's internalised that enough to really feel it if that makes sense? Worryingly, sometimes I think he will reflectively respond in those old patterns when talking about the past (e.g. "yes but you don't know how volatile he was" when talking about the scapegoated sibling, my dad stayed to protect us from my mum - but he's still there and from the stories I hear was more of an enabler than a protector).

I'm sorry I feel like I'm not making sense. I'm so clear in my own head that they are toxic but then I think maybe I'm the crazy/paranoid one as no one else seems to be taking it as seriously.

As far as reducing contact I've tried to suggest moving further away but due to jobs we're basically a bit stuck just now. I'm also aware that if my husband and I were to split then they would still have access to my child.

I thought covid would give us the opportunity to reduce the contact further but now with my husband's daily photos/vids they seem even more present than before.

Sorry someone else also asked if they have other GC - only our child and it's unlikely his siblings will have any.

This whole scenario is 100% from your perspective so how on earth can anyone answer objectively?

Can you move elsewhere?

Why does his ‘yes’ to contact between them and your DC override your ‘no’? Not necessarily advocating for an ultimatum, I’m just wondering if that discussion has been had. You seem to feel very strongly that they are toxic and a relationship with them could be to your child’s detriment. Are you concerned that pushing the issue would be likely to result in a separation, and the potential of more contact between your child and in-laws?

If he still makes excuses for their past behaviour I’d also be questioning his ability to objectively judge what’s appropriate without you there.

Ha good point justcallmebebes! But does that not apply to every post?

I guess I just hoped 'talking' it out a bit might help and there might be some magic wand solution I hadn't thought of.

You are the new enabler.

You won't be present because if you were you would get angry and make it stop and that would cause a scene.

Get back in there. If there's a row there's a row. If DH gets upset because you kicked off at them because he had to tell them five times not to talk to the child like that then that's fine. His appeasement tactics weren't really working. The bad thing was already felt by the child even if he stopped it escalating further.

Stop enabling DH to appease and avoid by hiding with your fingers in your ears going la la la.

I had family members who hid rather than be present and feel they had to act upon how my siblings and I were being treated. We are not close.

Every two weeks is alot especially if it's for a whole day/afternoon. Are you honestly saying he picks up everything they do? Doesn't leave the room to use the toilet, make drinks?

Also your husbands belief of what's acceptable might not be the same as what you believe to be or is.

If he absolutely wont cut contact then you need to meet in the middle and change to monthly visits with you present.

He doesn't have to send videos and pics every day. He could reduce to once or twice a week, for example, and if they kick off at least you dont gave to see them!
Use this time to establish new boundaries. I think it would be safe to deprive yourself of a 2nd child if you want one otherwise but if neither of you are prepared to reduce contact or insist they change their behaviour (or whatever) then no I wouldn't have another.

@TorkTorkBam what they said.