Mother in law advice

[StevieFlicks]

My mother in law can be very forceful, insensitive and passive aggressive. I have been with my fiancé for over 7 years and I have been upset countless times by her remarks.

My fiancé is often very supportive and he will stand up to her but she picks her moments to make remarks to me when he is not around.

I have a very serious and important professional job. Yesterday, she said (and has done several times before) "I can't believe you do your job, you can't say anything to you without you crying usually" then "when my fiance would tell me about your work, I'd think to myself "no way does she do that" when you can't say boo bah to her".

Now, I am sensitive to how she's been towards me over the years but she's never once seen me cry. She's referring to times when my fiancé has told her she has upset me and not to speak to me like that. It goes over her head. She says "when he used to tell me I'd upset you I'd think "what just over that?!" 'Just over that' being her telling me about finding girls shoes by the front door on a Saturday morning in my fiancé's single days, she's called me fat and said I've put weight on (she's said the same about her other DIL too) etc etc etc. I could write a book about the things she says.

I don't ever deny shedding tears watching DIY SOS or Stand Up to Cancer UK and my fiancé's running joke is calling me Tiny Tears. That's all pure fun because I am a passionate and emotional person, but not to my detriment, I don't feel and certainly not in front of MIL or in my working capacity.

I don't know why, but I feel I can never stand up to her, or don't know how to when she says things like this to me. I did say "better to be sensitive than insensitive and I'm good at my job" but she continued talking over me anyway so it fell on deaf ears. I find it so hard to respond to passive aggression.

I am really struggling with the anxiety of being around her as I know she constantly judges me, how I keep the house, "how I keep her son", while also having a kickass job (that she thinks I'm incapable of, clearly) and dealing with what she says to me often. She speaks to me as if I am a child and I just really need to get on top of this now before it really is too late. People around her think she is joking about everything she says and my fiancé did at first when we were first together and I'd spoken to him about things she had said. In time, he's realised how passive aggressive she can be.

I think she feels she can walk over me after me not really knowing how to deal with it this past 7 years and I really need some advice.

Are you sure you want to marry into this family? Because this will get much worse after you have children...

She’s jealous of you. Never forget that. You actually have all the power here. There’s a reason she belittles you and your professionalism- she knows that’s not possible for her, you are young, you have her son, she’s pure jealous. Jealousy makes people behave very badly.

Agree with others, think long and hard about marrying this man ... his mother will always be in your life,

Your only other option is to go totally NC, your DF can meet his mother on his own ... but how difficult will that be too maintain? Imagine what it’s going to be like when you have DC?

People like her rarely change. I have an adult DS, I absolutely know it is out of the question to expect to see ‘the wedding dress’ or help get the bride ready on her day. But if people don’t ‘get’ that those sort of things are totally inappropriate it is very hard to explain it to them in a way that they will understand and respect.

These people are emotionally draining because they are emotional vampires. Your distress is what they crave. From personal experience, I’d say don’t give her any information about you that isn’t strictly necessary or unavoidable, because she’ll use anything you say against you (like a narc’ arrest situation). If I spot anyone like this now, I distance if I can, grey rock if I can’t and have zero compunction about lying to protect myself - by that I mean strategic lies to distract them, such as ‘oh MiL didn’t I say my wedding dress is going to be bondage gear?’ Or ‘you rumbled me about the job -I’m actually a call girl’. I suspect you’d confuse her if you did this and you can always say ‘joke’’ as a get out.

Thanks all, DF is largely supportive of me and if he knows I'm hurt, he will defend me and say something to her. His difficulty is recognising her ways because it's so normal to him. She's extremely manipulative and I have seen her go behind my SIL back, to speak to BIL about something that she wants but SIL doesn't so that he will go and work on SIL about it. Thankfully she's already got that DF will not entertain speaking behind my back and he's said aloud what she's said previously in front of me and everyone else to humiliate her; she's obviously laughed off her joke. To be fair, when he knows, he is pretty good but she is so domineering, she makes both of us feel that we aren't strong enough to combat her. Two vs one will always succeed though so we need to be a team.

How she behaves is so so normal to h

On another note, DF has real difficulty expressing his emotions and showing emotions. He's so quiet when MIL is is loud, gobby and brash. Since living together he's grown to do that more and more. I feel he was really shut down as a child and I can totally see why. She is so belittling and condescending. I really do dread when we have children. But yes, completely happy and in love with my DF and excited for the wedding. It's a real shame how she is and I think maybe I've tried to give it the benefit of the doubt many times for his sake but enough is enough.

This morning she has turned up at our house. We didn't hear the door and she walked around to our garden, peering through the patio doors. DF opened the door and she said to me "I'll have a coffee". We closed the door to make it clear she wasn't coming in the house. I didn't initiate any conversation or really engage with her. You know, what you actually stop engaging you realise how self-entertained she is. She only wants to hear her own voice.

So what did your DF do after? What consequences is she going to face?

Another one worried for you OP regarding DF...him telling you that you were being over sensitive to her is a red flag. Also there is a strong chance that some of her behaviours are also his underlying patterns. Less likely if he hated them, more likely if he doesn't notice them or tries to excuse them to you, because they are normal to him. These might not show in earnest until after the wedding but if you've ever seen a flash of cruel humour to put you down when he's upset or dominating behaviour/ refusing to take criticisms ( the stuff that leaves you stunned as to how to deal with it when MIL does it ) and let it drop (because he's not usually like that) then it's something you need to consider.

That said, you asked for strategies for MIL now. To take the sting out her 'speak as I find joke speak' try calling it without giving her the row she secretly craves. A stock phrase like 'Thank you for that, I see your in the mood for straight for straight talking today ' (neutral or positive tone) Then stop talking. Don't justify or explain yourself. Don't be afraid of the silence. Give her a chance to start the conversation again on a different tack or if not make your excuses then leave .

Re the wedding and boundary claiming I remember thinking the phrase 'and that's a big smiley no from me' a lot. Out loud I would say 'That's a lovely idea , but I think I'm going to....' over and over again.

Finally, don't underestimate the strain and impact of having this in your life. I hope your fiance is supportive enough of you in other ways to be worth it.

Wow you are not even safe in your own home. I can’t imagine someone rocking up to my house unannounced early on a Saturday morning. You have zero privacy here.

That’s your v first new boundary to put in place - a physical one. How on earth is she on the lose in lockdown? How is she accessing your property?

You need to improve your security- a lock on the gate, a ring doorbell, blind on any windows.

Then you need to communicate new rules to her. No turning up. Text ahead to see if you are free. And when she ignores this (which she will) just get DF to stand his ground - don’t open the door. Repeat the instruction until she leaves.

Also I would be looking to aiming to NEVER having her in your home. You don’t have to tell her that - but once she is complying with rule one above - you both need to be “busy” - “have plans” - never tell her what they are because she will just twist and manipulate to get around them.

Would just encourage DF to go see her once once a fortnight with him crystal clear that he gives her zero detail about your lives.

Seriously would you consider moving?
You both need to agree to get v tough and v firm - and it should be your DF who is responsible for communicating, implementing and maintaining these boundaries.

Once he steps back and starts to read up he will have a wider perspective and be able to see it. Now because she treats him really well he doesn’t “feel” how you do. He will always be behind you in understanding because he is conditioned and manipulated from an early age and enmeshed in FOG - so it is harder for him to find his anger. He needs your continued encouragement. Can he see what’s gone on with SIL and BIL? Can he see how toxic and abusive that it?

Wtf does she not realise she's in lockdown. I hope to god you didn't make her a coffee

She sounds very jealous of you OP, nothing you say or do will ever change that, cut the contact down to a minimum or even better go NC with her. If she can’t be civil & pleasant to you, take back the power, you don’t deserve to be treated so badly.

You have likely come from an emotionally healthy family, your man here has clearly not been so lucky.

You both need to keep far away from his mother as of now let alone when you have children. She will be a crap grandmother to them and will use them to get back at you as their mother.

I would also think she will behave very badly at your wedding when it takes place; she will likely make this all about her too (she will probably cry uncontrollably, fake an illness leading up to it, wear something inappropriately cut or otherwise styled; anything to keep the focus of attention on her. I would not put it past her to do any of that, this is how disordered she is).

Re this morning she has no concept of boundaries and does not care about any boundary you care to set her. She is more than happy to impinge on your lives for her own ends because she is also pissed off that in her eyes "you have stolen her beloved boy from her". You will in all likelihood have to move and moving is something I would consider doing in the near future too.

Where is your fiancé's father here; is he still around?.

His mother was not a good parent to your DF when he was growing up and his own inertia re his mother hurts him as much as you. Read too about fear, obligation and guilt and the website entitled out of the FOG.

Your fiancé is mired in his own fear, obligation and guilt and was probably brought up to believe the sky will indeed fall in if he disobeyed her at all and so on some level he is very afraid of her, he has seen all the hate of a woman. He ideally should see a therapist because people like his mother do untold damage to their now adult children and that reflects also in how you are treated by both he and her. He cannot fully stand up properly to her because of his own inertia.

Such people like his mother do not change. Only you and in turn your fiancé can change how you react to her. Again, it is not your fault she is like this and neither of you made her that way. What if anything do you know about her own childhood and or family background, that often gives clues.

OP is there a reason you gave waited 8 yeats to marry? Her, got dh, you, finances?

Even without social distancing I'd not expect someone to come round and just drop on on a Saturday morning even my mum or Mil.

"Your fiancé is mired in his own fear, obligation and guilt and was probably brought up to believe the sky will indeed fall in if he disobeyed her at all and so on some level he is very afraid of her, he has seen all the hate of a woman. He ideally should see a therapist because people like his mother do untold damage to their now adult children and that reflects also in how you are treated by both he and her. He cannot fully stand up properly to her because of his own inertia."

I was just about to say he needs to see a counsellor. He can do it by prone or internet during lockdown. Potentially easier for him. Maybe even cheaper. He needs to see her behaviour is not nourishing to your life together.

Re finding a therapist, the ideal person in this respect would have no familial boas about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Interview such people carefully and at length before choosing any particular one, you need to find someone who fits in with your approach. BACP are worth looking at here.

I would re think this marriage. My MIL is similar and it has caused great stress even though I never speak to her and see her every few years only(she lives abroad). Damage can be done through phonecalls to your DH. She can still undermine you and your marriage. She will attack your parenting and this is more painful than what you are dealing with now. Your Fiance "doesnt notice" which is concerning and also means you have to explain it each time. I would also watch for him repeating her behaviours because they are normal yo him. If she lives so close that she can just pop in, then this is problematic. I think you need to get dp way more on board before you get married.

These women are v dangerous - they wreck people’s self esteem, ruin marriages and break up families if you let them.

This.

That sort of MIL can ruin a marriage, OP. Just be very very careful that you've got the sort of man who will always be on your side, otherwise you're in for a life of misery.

And that.

Look, your fiance has had years to crush this bullying or low contact/cut her off himself. He has done none of this. The truth is that he's probably happy that you're there to take the brunt of her controlling and he sees that as part of your future duty as his wife.

To him, it's a couple of hens fighting. Nothing more.

You have a fiance problem. From my experience, I would advise you don't marry him - you will also be marrying her. Once you have children, he will know you're stuck for life and you'll receive no further help with MIL. If you split, she'll potentially be spitting poison in your kids' ears 50% of the time. This guy has had years to truly have your back and he has refused to do the job properly. Effectively, MIL has asked him to choose and he's chosen her.

I'd just call it off. The rest of your life will be misery, PND, PTSD and madness otherwise.

Just wanted to give a more positive perspective. I have a similar MIL problem. She is very subtle and I still now doubt whether I’m over sensitive and misinterpret her good intentions. However, when I had DD there were a few instances of outright undermining behaviour and craziness. For example, she was sending passive aggressive texts to DH to ‘proof-read’ before sending to me.

I had the most awful arguments with DH and it did become an ultimatum where our new little family were going to break up if he didn’t sort things out with his mum. He stepped up and has completely supported me having nothing to do with her. This is the only way I can manage because, like you, I struggle with conflict and just felt huge anxiety around her. He now sees everything she does and will pull her up on it or not engage. He finds talking to her exhausting because he’s never really sure what her angle is or what she’s seeking. I wish it was different for him, but he really wouldn’t have had a healthy relationship with any woman if he’d never put his mum right.

Thank you all. I am definitely marrying him! He's been hugely supportive, he just needs to learn how to combat her. It's not his fault she's this way and he has never acted that way towards me. So long as he can support me and step this up then I think we will be fine. Thanks @Spoons1987 it's good to know someone has come out the other side of it

We've spoken about it al length today, he's happy to read the recommended book and understands it's his place to deal with her. He said I am his priority and it's us who are becoming a family and in time have children. He's more than happy to put the work in now for our happiness later.

Why are you taking cards to her door and why have anything to do with her?
Just don't engage with her she's your bf mum

So what happened when she came around this morning? What action has he taken?

I would ask him what role he sees for her with your children, how involved she will be and precisely how often the children you will see her.

Will holidays be spent together? Christmas, New Year, kids birthdays, his birthday, maybe your birthday? Visits during your pregnancy? Will he expect her to visit soon after you give birth, stay at your house during that period (and afterwards as the kids grow up)? School plays, graduations?

If she becomes ill or elderly, would he expect her to move in?

This woman is likely to be deeply enmeshed in what should be the most treasured moments of the rest of your life. You aren't just marrying him, you are marrying her too. Will she spoil your life's treasured moments or enhance them. Because she will be there, for all of them. Depending on how long she lives, she could be with you for the rest of your life.

She is very subtle and I still now doubt whether I’m over sensitive and misinterpret her good intentions.

That’s exactly her strategy. To inflict emotional injury “just” under the radar -enough for maximum impact - but without being “seen”.

Lots of passive aggressive banter, jokes and smoke and mirror tactics, to distract you and others whilst she lands the punch under the belt.

It’s highly manipulative and deliberate.

Often it is death by a 1000 cuts - so repeated subtle snipes. But it’s the patterns and totality of all of the aggregated low level bullying incidents that reveal what she is up to.

The bind you find yourself in though, in the moment, is the rise of your own self doubt and confusion and the risk of worrying that you will over react emotionally and look like the hypersensitive loon that she is trying to goad you into becoming.

But if you ignore her smoke and mirrors distractions and just listen to your own gut feeling in the moment anyone who triggers “confusion” or an “off” feeling in you regularly, is bullying you.

You shouldn’t doubt yourself because you don’t get this feeling from other people.

Don’t concern yourself with the content of her words they are irrelevant and it will be something else next time - it’s your feelings that are really important and the best advice is to totally withdraw - take yourself out of punching distance. Don’t let anyone else minimise your feelings - they are yours and the are deep and they are real - or even manipulate you into tolerating her. These people’s motives are often to manage and protect their own personal discomfort around these difficult people rather than any real concern for you - even if they are aware of it or not....,

Whilst it is good OP that your DF discussed the matter and agreed to read books ultimately it is all about what action he takes. He said just yesterday that he thought you misintrepreted her. She just popped up to your house so basic boundaries are not in place. He tells her that you dont like how she speaks(allowing the" you are too sensitive "assumption) rather than saying the way she speaks is totally inappropriate. Thusfar, based on your posts, he has done zero to help and yet you say he is hugely supportive. Listening and nodding is of no use. He is probably doing the same with his DM. I think your DF has a greater part to play in this. As another poster said he just sees this as two hens fightening.

Pics in Red and recycled bottle are right.

Your DF may have good intentions but you need concrete plans buttoned down way ahead because these people are so manipulative and unruly and will ruin every single celebration in your life.

Their brains are whirring away 24/7 trying to manoeuvre their way into your lives. They have zero respect for any normal boundaries.

Seriously search for some of the classic threads on here and it will make your hair stand on end what lengths they will go to.

You are in the very early days and just her demanding to come to your wedding dress fitting and get ready at your house on the morning of the wedding is just totally absurd behaviour - and you can expect her to either throw a massive tantrum and sulk through your wedding or just gate crash causing you great distress.

This is a massive red flag of what is to come.

Don’t expect her to respect normal boundaries - you need to build them v v high and v v wide with someone like her because she will do anything and everything to trounce them. Normal rules don’t apply.

What this looks like needs to be decided way ahead now to minimise her involvement in your lives.

Physical distance.

No shared holidays or celebrations.
Ensure she has zero details of your lives (including SM).
Exclude her - she has not earned her place in your lives by her constant disrespect and systematic bullying of you.
I would do everything to keep her out of your home.
Your DF can visit her alone on her turf if he wants.