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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do I ensure I get what I want/ working out what's important?

63 replies

jojobar · 14/04/2020 11:03

I was in a 6 year relationship which has very recently ended.

Before I met him, I was single for a VERY long time. Some of that time I was happily single and not looking to meet anyone, some of it I was actively dating. The dating was 98% shitshow - you name it and I encountered them, to paraphrase Bridget Jones - alcoholics, workaholics, commitment phobics, people with girlfriends or wives, misogynists, megalomanics, male chauvinists, emotional fuckwits or freeloaders, perverts...plus druggies, racists, ghosters. You get the idea.

I was pretty disillusioned and jaded and can honestly say that in 5 years of dabbling on and off with dating I didn't meet anyone who didn't fall into the above categories (some fit into several of them). So I decided to think about what I wanted, some kind of cosmic ordering, to work out what was important to me.

And I decided that I wanted someone who I found attractive physically and mentally, who was intelligent (not necessarily uni educated, but had views about the world and was articulate enough to express them), had a similar earning capacity to me and was also financially independent, who valued my intelligence at least as much as my physical appearance, who wanted a relationship not just casual dating ad infinitum. Who was generally respectful of women, and who didn't have issues with alcohol or drugs. Someone who could mix with my friends, my professional colleagues and my family and not feel uncomfortable or out of their depth. Who made me laugh and who was kind to me, and whose company I enjoyed being in. Who enhanced my life rather than drained it.

And I met my Ex and he pretty much ticked all those boxes. He was my ideal man physically/ lookswise, and he was also reasonably well off/ successful, wasn't looking to play the field, apparently quite well adjusted etc.

Over the ensuing years I've realised that as well as ticking all the above (and even other things that weren't on my list, like he's a great cook) he also had a number of issues. Last year we split up, and I discovered he'd been unfaithful to me. He has issues around sex which are very deeprooted and linked to traumatic past events. His MH is also poor, this has been ongoing for many years. And most recently, there was an incident which he refuses to apologise for, choosing to blame me for feeling upset that he poked me in an argument to 'make a point' and can't see why that isn't an appropriate thing to do to me, despite knowing I'd previously been in a relationship involving domestic violence.

So that's the end of things between us. Obviously it will be a while before I can even consider another relationship, but I'm trying to learn from this and thinking again about my wants list. One thing I noticed when we were together was that he didn't do much for me 'just because'...you know the guy who brings his partner flowers? Or surprises her with a gift? Or mows the lawn, or cleans her car? no, none of that, ever. He bought me flowers about 5 times in total. He did sometimes warm my side of the bed on a cold night, or bring me a towel when I was in the shower, but not many other meaningful gestures. Would I be wrong to want more of this?

Although I felt quite secure in the relationship, he also wasn't committed to me in the fullest sense, everything we talked about was always 5 years ahead. I would have liked an engagement ring. He made noises about it once, briefly, never happened.

Things also often got left to me to arrange even though I was always much busier than him. He never took the initiative to do anything to help me (even though I often did for him).

I think these are all things I'd like in my next relationship whenever that might be...am I being fair to expect this? How do I ensure I get what I want?

OP posts:
Fidgety31 · 14/04/2020 11:07

I think your expectations are totally unrealistic to be honest.
We all have to compromise to some extent in relationships .
It sounds like you want the romantic movie version of a guy - I don’t think they exist . You’ll be single forever.

millionaireshortie · 14/04/2020 11:07

My experience tells me it doesn't exist, sorry.

There are men that will be like that for the first couple of heard through the limerence period but not after. I'm choosing to remain single once I'm able to separate from my husband.

millionaireshortie · 14/04/2020 11:08

*years not heard.

Totally agree with previous poster.

jojobar · 14/04/2020 11:16

I understand the need to compromise.

For example, some months into the relationship, I found out my now Ex smoked weed. Not all the time or to excess (clearly, or I'd have realised it sooner) but he still did it.

If I'd known that before, I would have dismissed him immediately. As it was, I thought about it. His weed use wasn't excessive, didn't affect his life, it cost no more than a couple of drinks in the pub, and he is almost teetotal anyway. So I figured it wasn't the dealbreaker I might have thought beforehand.

I'm interested as to what is unrealistic? Like I have said, my Ex was/is all my original list, just without the formal commitment, helping me with stuff etc. Can I really not expect any of that?

OP posts:
smiften · 14/04/2020 11:27

If such a man existed, would he be single?

TheSparkling · 14/04/2020 11:30

I think you're original list was a baseline really for a relationship, the things you mention later in your post are "would likes" rather than "must haves".
You were together a while so he must have met your criteria originally and you were happy with that. The issue with the weed is the crux really - where you ask yourself if all my standards are satisfied what can I compromise on. I understand your thinking because I am similar, however I think the other posters are right in that the ideal man is a romantic fiction and as long as you have your baseline in play you can meet someone who your happy with.
If your future partner has to tick every single one of your boxes then you will be alone.

I'm not trying to be mean, just realistic. And I come from a similar place in that I was married, am not now and have recently started dating. There is a lot of crud out there but there are some gems. And I think you are right to think it through in terms of what you need and then what you want before you set off again.

jojobar · 14/04/2020 11:49

I'm not sure why a man like that wouldn't be single, because I am, and I consider I would be bringing the same to the table.

I find it confusing - I have ended a relationship because of his failure to apologise for something that I found offensive and threatening. When I posted a thread about it, it was unanimous I should get rid of him.

Yet most of the replies to this thread seem to imply that in expecting any more than he could offer I'd be unrealistic! How does that work then?

OP posts:
KnockDownNinja · 14/04/2020 11:55

It sounds like you have first hand experience of how rare the person you're looking for is, seeing as you've never found them.

Are you expecting someone to tell you "yeah, they'll turn up when you hit 45"?

The traits you're looking for sound like they'd make an appealing partner to most women and are, presumably, pretty rare, in that it's not indicative of the average man.

You're then asking for him to be:
A) Available
B) For you to be the best of his options

That's why people end up settling. I think your real consideration is whether you'd prefer to be alone than be with a guy who doesn't meet these standards.

Fidgety31 · 14/04/2020 11:55

I think it comes across that you are seeking almost perfection and a person that isn’t allowed to have any flaws or make any mistakes .
And that sort of person just does not exist.

jojobar · 14/04/2020 12:06

I'm not seeking perfection. I'm trying to set standards. Time and again I see posts on here where women are told to have higher standards, to not accept less, etc. How does this equate with that?

I would not under any circumstances be in a relationship with someone who didn't tick all of my original list. Is anyone actually saying that list is unrealistic? When I've spoken to others about it, they felt it was the minimum anyone should expect?

The other stuff is a nice to have. But again I've read many threads on here where women who have a man they love but who they feel doesn't just surprise them with little gestures, or won't provide the commitment they need, is told to dump and find someone better.

So is that poor advice? Or if they should 'find someone better' what's the difference in my case?

I don't want a perfect man. I want someone who is perfect for me, and I don't want to sell myself short or end up in my next relationship feeling I'd really like him to take more responsibility/ want a commitment/ to buy me flowers/ whatever and that to create resentment.

As for not making mistakes, I took my Ex back after he'd been unfaithful with several different women. I think I was pretty accepting of his mistakes and flaws!

OP posts:
AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 14/04/2020 12:18

With your ex, did you discuss marriage in a serious way? Did you surprise him with little gifts or cleaning his car etc?

ladybee28 · 14/04/2020 12:33

Lori Gottlieb wrote an excellent book on this.

Interview with her here: would highly recommend reading the book (I picked it up ready to hate it, but it felt like a HUGE relief)

wantmorenow · 14/04/2020 12:39

I don't think your list too much at all. Seems like you want a man that you find physically attractive (I fancy mine loads - he's overweight but doesn't mean I don't fancy him), one that it is solvent and can manage his finances, is similarly educated and can hold a conversation and is able to socialise professionally and socially appropriately. You are also excluding those with substance abuse issues - seems normal to have this as an expectation for a relationship.

As for random acts of kindness, I think they are the foundation of a relationship whether it be sexual, romantic or platonic. Little acts of kindness are the glue that makes things work: such as filling up the car with fuel ( I hate doing this chore), bringing a favourite chocolate bar, running a bath, offering to pick up your shopping whilst doing their own, ironing your shirt whilst they have the iron out to do theirs, cooking a meal you enjoy rather than their choice.

Your standards are not too high. Don't settle for a poor facsimile of a loving realtionship.

jojobar · 14/04/2020 14:02

Yes I did things for him. Not wash his car, but I bought him useful or thoughtful gifts, used to do lots of admin type things for him when he said he didn't have time. When we got back together last year after his infidelity I said I wanted some kind of proper commitment. He made the right noises but nothing came of it.

wantmorenow thanks for your comment, I was getting concerned that somehow I was completely out of step. My Ex is overweight too, as I am, but I think he's the handsomest man I've ever met. I used to tell him this often. I know looks aren't everything but it is important to have a strong physical attraction, as well as compatibility in terms of personality and intelligence, life goals etc which we generally had (and tbh which I realised was the issue with a lot of other men I'd met, they didn't have one or all of those - as well as a lot of other issues!)

OP posts:
AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 14/04/2020 14:46

“Some kind of proper commitment”, but you didn’t actually discuss being married?

Honestly, you sound immature and like you’ve read too many chick lit stories. You focus on the flowers and gift giving and so forth, say your ex did “none of that, ever”, then literally in the next sentence give several examples of him doing exactly that, but then dismissing those gestures as not good enough or frequent enough.

It doesn’t sound from your follow up post that you were doing these things for him more than he was for you.

Who expects to be proposed to, ring and all, without ever having a conversation about marriage? You just hint that you want a gesture of commitment without clearly expressing what you want in the future? This is fantasy nonsense.

Fact is, everyone has baggage, everyone has flaws (even you, I imagine) and all relationships involve people learning and developing together.

My partner ticks all of your criteria, but is he perfect? No. Am I? HELL no. Thank god he isn’t as picky as you seem to be.

managinged · 14/04/2020 14:52

Maintain your standards! Better to be single with high standards than to be in a bad relationship with low standards.

wantmorenow · 14/04/2020 14:57

I met my DP after 8 years of being single. He's not perfect, smoker, no house (walked away from his when marriage ended - took nothing. Generous and not money driven so much to his own detriment), overweight, eats far too much processed food and meat which means I'm getting fat lol, drinks far too much wine and is a nightmare when it comes to dressing well.

However on the bits that matter, he's a fit for me. We both teach, earn the same money, enjoy the same things mostly. We have a great sex life (or did until we had to live apart to CV). He can hold his own in company although he hates chit chat and will avoid going to all but essential social occasions.

We have no plans to marry, I'd like too but he doesn't. I can see why as it brings no benefits to us and he's been honest from start.

He is hugely kind and makes me happy. We met in our late forties/early fifties. We worked together for about 18 months before getting together and he was always kind and thoughtful to everyone so I knew it wasn't a show. I'm lucky however I think it's partly down to not settling for less. An yes I did plenty of OLD but rarely got beyond a second coffee meet as they just weren't right.

LightenUpSummer · 14/04/2020 15:11

Your list is fine OP. It's the same as mine in fact. Except I already have dc and don't want any more, plus I'd be ok to stay single forever rather than settle.

I really don't want to be single forever! But I'd rather be, than settle for less.

Some people - including close female members of my family - like to tell you you're aiming too high, as they know deep down that they settled for less than they deserved Sad

jojobar · 14/04/2020 15:19

My Ex doesn't own his own home either. I do, and am mortgage free, but he earns more than me and has a lot of money invested, so it always felt like we were on a fairly even footing.

What I said about the commitment was that I felt we needed something to cement our relationship. After the infidelity one of the things he said was that he was never unfaithful in his marriage because he felt a greater tie to his XW than he did to me, because the marriage linked them together. I said that if we were going to stay together I needed a commitment like getting engaged. So I think I was pretty clear on what I wanted. He agreed at the time. I later just before Valentines Day this year said maybe I should propose to him. He laughed it off and was clearly uncomfortable. So I didn't, and nothing came from him either.

I'm not looking for perfection. I've just finished a relationship which went bad (although I'm getting the impression some people feel that I was being 'too fussy' which was what my Ex said to me, that I was ending our relationship for unrealistic reasons) and reflecting on what's important to me, and ensure so far as possible that I don't waste time - once I am ready to consider dating again - on unsuitable people.

OP posts:
AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 14/04/2020 15:35

Well it sounds like you and your ex were not on the same page and it’s a good thing you’re not together anymore.

There’s nothing wrong with your initial list of criteria. Like others have said, it’s just a baseline for a good relationship.

The issue here is that the things you’re complaining about are not the things on your list. What you’ve said is that your last relationship failed and instead of focusing on the fact that you weren’t compatible and he cheated on you, you’re complaining that he didn’t propose and didn’t give you enough presents.

My question is why the hell would you want to marry a man who cheated on you?

And why, instead of getting back in the dating saddle with your original (perfectly reasonable) expectations you have now added a laundry list of irrelevant stuff like buying you flowers at an unknowable but apparently specifically acceptable frequency?

You need to add fidelity and wanting the same things from life to your list of criteria, and not try to salvage relationships with men who don’t tick those two boxes. You’re kidding yourself if you think this is about how often he went to the florist.

jojobar · 14/04/2020 16:06

I wanted to commit to him because I love him deeply, we are highly compatible intellectually and in terms of our personalities, we have similar life goals, because life is better with him in it. I was of course very upset by his infidelity however I was prepared to try again, on the basis he had made a (fairly significant) mistake, and that it wouldn't happen again. I know for many people infidelity is absolutely unforgivable. My own view of it is not quite so black and white.

And it wasn't that he didn't consider himself committed. He said we were together for life. He was happy to plan his future with me and still was even yesterday - he doesnt want our relationship to end. However as he won't apologise and acknowledge what he did was wrong, that simply can't happen.

My Ex bought me flowers 5 times in 6 years. 4 of those were either a birthday or Valentines Day gift. He bought me one bunch 'just because'. I don't expect flowers every week, but I think more than once in 6 years would be nice. I'm not talking a bouquet, some 3 quid lilies from Aldi would be fine :) It grated on me because he always bought his XW flowers once or twice a month, despite the fact their marriage was on all accounts pretty awful most of the time. I used to do kind things for previous partners, but I did more for my Ex, not less, because he meant more to me.

OP posts:
AndSheSteppedOnTheBall · 14/04/2020 16:14

If you want to get married and he doesn’t, you don’t have similar life goals.

I’m not black and white about infidelity either, but I don’t consider marriage to be a suitable solution to cheating behaviour.

There are lots of people I’m compatible with intellectually and personality-wise, but apart from my husband, they’re all friends.

My ex is still a very close friend, but he wanted children and I didn’t, so it didn’t matter how much else worked.

As for the screed about the flowers, get a grip. It’s really, really not what the problem is here and until you can see that, you are not going to find what you want.

reallywhereisthebar · 14/04/2020 16:29

I am actually quite surprised at the number of people saying OP's need for her partner to be thoughtful, is unrealistic? Where is the bar, really? Why are people so dismissive of thoughtfulness in relationships? Why do people make it look like romance is unattainable and if you want a thoughtful partner, you're asking for too much?

I am an extremely thoughtful person, sometimes bordering on too thoughtful. The least I expect is for my partner, in addition to all of the good things, to be thoughtful. It means a lot to me.

OP, you sound like a very grounded woman who has a clear and pragmatic view of your wants and needs and you're asking the right questions. Yes, thoughtful people are very rare, especially within the male species but they exist! And I don't see why you shouldn't want one!

5 flowers in 6 years especially when he bought his ex wife flowers every month, falls very much below expectations. You're very right to question that. It's exhausting when you're the planner and organiser as well- trust me, I've been there, done that, I have the unmet expectations scars.

What people fail to realise is being thoughtful is a conscious decision; people either decide to or not. Regardless of what you say, it doesn't matter if someone does not just like you that much to be bothered. People stay with people they wanna stay with. If the relationship meant enough to your ex partner, he would have bloody proposed and bought you the fucking flowers. It just didn't.

I also agree cheating isn't as black and white as people make it seem, however, it doesn't bode well for the relationship. Especially as he did it with multiple women!

You're not expecting too much @jojobar. Thanks

jojobar · 14/04/2020 16:29

It wasn't that he didn't want further commitment at some point, but the timelines were always in the future. I felt that if I was taking a risk in restarting our relationship, there should be some quid pro quo, and the commitment that had been intended at some point in the future should be sooner rather than later. Our goal was to spend our lives together, so that was the same.

I can count on the fingers of one hand people I am compatible with in both intellectual and personality terms... in fact I wouldn't even need the whole hand.

As to the problem, the problem is that my Ex threw away our entire relationship by behaving like a dick and then refusing to acknowledge this or apologise. Had he done either and been genuinely sorry I am sure we could and would have resolved any other issues. But that isn't going to happen unfortunately.

OP posts:
reallywhereisthebar · 14/04/2020 16:32

@jojobar What did he not apologise for? Can you shed some light on that?

Seems to me like his action didn't quite match his words? He didn't want this relationship as much as you did. He sabotaged it in many ways. Has he tried for you to reconcile at all?

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