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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

My friend and her children. I just don't know what to do next.......

118 replies

littlemisstickle · 12/09/2007 11:45

This may turn into quite a ramble so apologies in advance.
One of my closest friends has got 2 daughters, aged 7 and 4. They have always been very difficult children IMO, naughty, rude and rather spoilt. My friend and her dh have had an odd/difficult relationship for a number of years, something which I don't think has done their children any good as their homelife has been somewhat bizarre.
The past year has been difficult as my friend and her dh split up. She has the children - he is useless and is very much a part-part-part-time father - and they have unfortunately been very unsettled since the split and have had to live in a few different places. The childrens behaviour has obviously not been helped by these changes, but I do not think it is any worse than it has ever been before. I have always found it difficult to know how to treat them as they are not really used to discipline but in my house and/or infront of my children I feel that I ought to discipline them the same as my children and insist that in my home they abide by my set of rules,etc.
Things recently came to a bit of a head from my point of view. I was giving them a lift somewhere when the 7 yo started hitting her mum because she couldn't get her own way on something. I got out, got her (the 7 yo) out and told her in no uncertain terms that hitting was not acceptable. She went to hit me so I grabbed her wrists and planned to hold on to them til she calmed down enough to apologise. However her tantrum continued. I picked her up and moved her out of sight of her mum and sister so that she could not "play to an audience" but the tantrum still continued with her shouting and screaming in the street. When I let go of her she hit me, kicked me, scratched me, etc. This all continued for some time, with lots of looks from passers-by. In the end when she started head butting me I told her that if she hit/kicked/anything again I would smack her bum. Now I have never smacked a child in my life, having felt that my own children are well enough behaved to not necessitate it. I also know that she (the 7yo) has never been smacked before. So, she hit me again so I smacked her bum (not hard at all, I was aiming more for the "shock" factor to try and snap her out of it). She hit me again, I smacked her bum again. And so on. In total, the tantrum continued for just short of an hour until she EVENTUALLY calmed down and EVENTUALLY apologised to both me and her mum. At which point, her mum was happy and went back to normal where as I was left feeling astounded at such disgusting behavious, and her mums reaction (or lack of) to it all.
So now I am left feeling extremely confused. I am not proud of myself for smacking someone elses child and I am sure my friend is not thanking me but what else could I have done? And I feel so cross, no angry, with my friend for raising her children like this. I know things have been tough for her but how can things be so tough that you allow your child to hit anyone? There is just no respect whatsoever. But I no longer know what to do with our friendship. I do not want to have to pretend to like her children anymore when they are, truth be told, actually not nice children. But I do not see how our friendship can survive when I feel like this. I also now realise that I cannot respect my friend when she has allowed her children to be like this.
I am sure there are people out there who will think I am in the wrong for my stepping in. I accept that, but am not on here to ask for opinions on that side of it. What I really want is some advice on how I handle the relationship with my friend and her children from here on in.
As predicted, this is a very long post. Thanks to anyone who makes their way through it!

OP posts:
Howdydoody · 12/09/2007 21:33

LMT I think you were a good friend to try and help - you werent to know how things would escalate. Hindsight is 20/20 vision.

I would recommend a lovely card to your friend's daughter asking if you could take her swimming/cinema (and your dcs if you have them - sorry not sure if you said)and just have fun with her. She may be so stressed with her mum appearing (to me) depressed and she is striking out for some reaction from her. The little girl may relax enough to talk about her feelings to you after a while.At the very least she will feel wanted and it may help repair things

Desiderata · 12/09/2007 21:36

What a lovely post, Howdy!

Yes, that's exactly the way to go.

maisemor · 12/09/2007 21:37

LMT have you decided on how to proceed from here?

Howdydoody · 12/09/2007 21:40

Thanks Desi !

Desiderata · 12/09/2007 21:46

You're welcome, howdy.

tissy · 12/09/2007 21:56

Elizabetth, I'd like to disagree with you.

She may have been hit before, but my dd has a tendency when very frustrated to "thrash" a bit waving arms and legs, kicking out. She gets her temper from her father, but he is better at controlling his actions. What I'm trying to say is, the little girl may not be displaying violence as such, but expressing her frustration. It's not nice, but sometimes you can't control what you feel/ do at that age.

tissy · 12/09/2007 21:58

of course, i should point in my defence that dd has never been hit inspite of some very challenging tantrums. the little girl in question has not necessarily been smacked before.

TotalChaos · 12/09/2007 21:59

excellent post, Howdy, lovely constructive suggestion.

Do try and separate the behaviour from the children - if you really dislike the children that much, then it's not really going to benefit them or you to be socialising together.

PenelopePitstops · 12/09/2007 22:14

abroller sorry again, think i interpreted your post in the way you didnt mean it iyswim.

Your experience sounds horrific and I hope you have strenght to carry on now.

margoandjerry · 12/09/2007 22:29

Sanctimony Central round here isn't it...

lljkk and howdy win best post award.

Of course the OP didn't do the ideal thing. She knows that. But IMHO a mother letting her child get that out of control and sitting passively in the car and doing nothing about it is far closer to abuse than a misjudged smack from someone who was at least trying to deal with the situation. She dealt with it wrongly, but at least she was present. At least she was actively trying to be present for that child. The mother was AWOL.

What the OP is wondering about is what to do about her friend who appears to be having a breakdown in front of her eyes. I don't really know what to advise about that but it sounds like the OP does actually want to help.

I like Howdy's suggestion. But also I think she really needs to sit down with her friend and ask her what's going on.

AbRoller · 12/09/2007 22:37

PP thank you

I'm ok. Hopefully the op and all concerned are too.

Night night.

NKF · 12/09/2007 22:43

Why don't you start by saying you're sorry and that you shouldn't have hit her daughter or interfered? And that it just upset you to see her getting hit and how does she feel about it?

NKF · 12/09/2007 22:45

Sorry, should have read more. If you want to stay friends with her, it may have to be without her children around as you don't like them.

Actually, the more I think about it, I think you are looking for ways to feeling good about dropping her as you say you don't respect her either. Is this a friendship? Honestly?

MrsMarvel · 12/09/2007 22:47

Good evening, FWIW I'll give you my opinion...
I think that you don't like these children because you are trying to find a way to end the relationship with your friend. You have been supportive in the past and tried to help her with her separation, perhaps then the blame was aimed at the father then. Now Dad's gone it is maybe clearer to you that it's actually Mum that's got the problems. So I would analyse deeper and say that you were, in the same way that toddlers behave badly in order to get attention when that's the only attention they get, trying to say to your friend "look at me - look at what you're putting me through".
Losing a friendship is really really hard, especially when it's one you've worked at and nurtured.

Your friend sounds like she is needy and perhaps you are just realising this. She is becoming dependent on you and that was her subconsciously testing you. If you go back to her now pretending nothing happened she will just do it again. But she clearly needs help. But not that kind of help.

Now you can't discount the feelings of your friends daughter. She too, will have started this as a way to get attention from her mother. She's only 7, that's very very young and her bad behaviour has only developed through bad parenting. She deserves endless tolerance from you if you are to help her.

I would advise that you tell your friend that she and her daughter need to go into therapy. I would also advise that you buy a big present for the daughter and say sorry and spend a bit of time with her to give her a chance to work through it.

bramblina · 12/09/2007 23:09

Littlemisstickle, I haven't read all posts but just want to add that I get the feeling that your friend has given up on disciplining her children, probably form lack of support form her exdp. This shows in the way her dds behave and how little she does about it. Giving that she barely reacted to how you reacted she probably isn't bothered, and at best possibly appreciates someone else doing something.

I would suggest you carry on to discipline these children when they are in your care/home and they will more than likely respect you for it, they are probably craving some sort of boundary. As for your frined, as she hasn't mentioned it then it is likely to be of little concern to her and carry on as normal until she does mention it.

FWIW I have a friend with a child whose behaviour I dislike, and have dreaded them visiting. When they do, I discipline him in my home like I do my own son, ie he climbs on tables, tries to break things, basically does everything he's not meant to, simply for attention- then his Mum gives the attention for the bad things, and he just thrives on that. Then begins the viscious circle. I read on here once- "I couldn't care less how other people bring up their children as long as mine are OK" and I thought actually I agree and let it go. Then thought actually no, the way other children are brought up does have an effect on my children - a very heavy and in the cases we're discussing, a detrimental effect. So that said, I will continue to take an interest in my ds's peers so long as I believe it is my place to do so.

In short, I support your actions. And as I said, carry on as you did.

MrsMarvel · 12/09/2007 23:13

I agree it's important to step in, for your own peace of mind and in order to show the children that they have an effect on people around them. You can't do it with strangers' children so easily so with friends it's a good opportunity.

nappyaddict · 13/09/2007 12:17

think she got scared away?

NOiamsportacus · 13/09/2007 12:48

think your friendship with the mother of these children has gone way beyond normal boundaries and neither of you is acting appropriately. She needs to take responsibility for her life and that includes sorting out her own problems, getting herself to CAB appointments and disciplining her own children. You should encourage her to be less dependent on you and I think that probably means having less contact with her to be honest.

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