My friend and her children. I just don't know what to do next.......

[littlemisstickle]

This may turn into quite a ramble so apologies in advance.
One of my closest friends has got 2 daughters, aged 7 and 4. They have always been very difficult children IMO, naughty, rude and rather spoilt. My friend and her dh have had an odd/difficult relationship for a number of years, something which I don't think has done their children any good as their homelife has been somewhat bizarre.
The past year has been difficult as my friend and her dh split up. She has the children - he is useless and is very much a part-part-part-time father - and they have unfortunately been very unsettled since the split and have had to live in a few different places. The childrens behaviour has obviously not been helped by these changes, but I do not think it is any worse than it has ever been before. I have always found it difficult to know how to treat them as they are not really used to discipline but in my house and/or infront of my children I feel that I ought to discipline them the same as my children and insist that in my home they abide by my set of rules,etc.
Things recently came to a bit of a head from my point of view. I was giving them a lift somewhere when the 7 yo started hitting her mum because she couldn't get her own way on something. I got out, got her (the 7 yo) out and told her in no uncertain terms that hitting was not acceptable. She went to hit me so I grabbed her wrists and planned to hold on to them til she calmed down enough to apologise. However her tantrum continued. I picked her up and moved her out of sight of her mum and sister so that she could not "play to an audience" but the tantrum still continued with her shouting and screaming in the street. When I let go of her she hit me, kicked me, scratched me, etc. This all continued for some time, with lots of looks from passers-by. In the end when she started head butting me I told her that if she hit/kicked/anything again I would smack her bum. Now I have never smacked a child in my life, having felt that my own children are well enough behaved to not necessitate it. I also know that she (the 7yo) has never been smacked before. So, she hit me again so I smacked her bum (not hard at all, I was aiming more for the "shock" factor to try and snap her out of it). She hit me again, I smacked her bum again. And so on. In total, the tantrum continued for just short of an hour until she EVENTUALLY calmed down and EVENTUALLY apologised to both me and her mum. At which point, her mum was happy and went back to normal where as I was left feeling astounded at such disgusting behavious, and her mums reaction (or lack of) to it all.
So now I am left feeling extremely confused. I am not proud of myself for smacking someone elses child and I am sure my friend is not thanking me but what else could I have done? And I feel so cross, no angry, with my friend for raising her children like this. I know things have been tough for her but how can things be so tough that you allow your child to hit anyone? There is just no respect whatsoever. But I no longer know what to do with our friendship. I do not want to have to pretend to like her children anymore when they are, truth be told, actually not nice children. But I do not see how our friendship can survive when I feel like this. I also now realise that I cannot respect my friend when she has allowed her children to be like this.
I am sure there are people out there who will think I am in the wrong for my stepping in. I accept that, but am not on here to ask for opinions on that side of it. What I really want is some advice on how I handle the relationship with my friend and her children from here on in.
As predicted, this is a very long post. Thanks to anyone who makes their way through it!

It is quite strange as realistically why didn't the mum sort that situation out herself as it pretty obvious it was unacceptable behaviour, she put you in an awkward position and should not have done that, you shouldn't have to have disciplined her kids when she is there. I would say that unless she takes responsibility for her kids then it will make this friendship hard to continue in a close way. Its very difficult. I guess the most helpful thing you could do if you want to stay friends is explain to her that it made you feel uncomfortable and a bit confused about the friendship and that maybe you can help find ways to modify and control her children's behaviour that would make her life easier. Its pretty obvious you feel upset because you hit her child, I don't think people on here criticising you will help you or them so write that to experience and don't do it again.

littlemisstickle are you for real?

Is she the sort of friend who you could sit down with and really talk? It might be that she was grateful that someone finally stepped in for her. Maybe she's at the end of her tether, what with the breakup and could really do with some proper advice. (Possibly not a crash course in smaking though!)

What exactly was your friend doing during the one hour tantrum? That's what I don't understand. Was she just sitting in the car watching?

I would be interested to hear what your friend did/said whilst her DDs tantrum was happening. It should have been your friend who dealt with her child and maybe you did overstep the mark but I think the answer your looking for (how do I handle the friendship) lies in how your friend is with you. Try not to feel too bad and have a talk with your friend to find out how she feels about this.

where was the mum in all this? i don't understand. and i REALLY don't understand who put you in charge.

I remember a few years ago I was disgusted at the behaviour of a fellow mumsnetters son - until I found out he had huge problems which were actually brought on by his parent relationship breakdown and seeing his father hit his mum and his mum be close to breaking point all of the time.

FFS this child is 7 and obviously the mum is/has been having a hard time - you may just want to if you are a good friend try and plough on and hepl her - maybe not hitting her child would be a good start though!

i don't believe a word of it.

Oh dear. Much as I sympathise with you - child sounds a nightmare - I'd not have done that. It was up to the mum to object to being hit - not you. Other people's kids have to be endured I'm afraid if their parent is present and, nominally at least, in charge.

But as to what to do now.... I don't see how you can continue the friendship without addressing the elephant in the room - ie the child's horrible behaviour (which is affecting the way you treat your kids) and your reaction to it. You have to be direct. She might be very upset at what happened but embarrassed to speak about it, so you have to. And if nothing changes I don't see how you and your kids can remain friends with her or her kids.

My suggestion on how to move forward from here would probably be;
for you to suggest to your friend that she goes to parenting classes (if what you say is true about her (lack of)parenting).
Also suggest that she sees some kind of therapist to make her a stronger/more confident person, so that she feels she can deal with these kind of situations herself.

Also I would suggest for you to go see somebody professional about anger management.

P.S. also please use the Enter button once in a while. It is very difficult to read such a long message without any "breaks" .

Obviously the other mum was tacitly condoing what was happening, she's probably at her wits end with the child, too!

As to way forward:
I think I would speak to the other mum (sans children) to say I didn't like the way things happened, including my own actions, and don't want to get into that kind of situation again. You want to be supportive, but she HAS to take charge of disciplining her own children, in future. Otherwise will be a case of severely limiting contact with the other family for foreseeable future.

If I was your friend, I would have got out of the car there and then and would not be speaking to you again I am afraid.

Is this for real?

Yes, the mum was in the car with her other daughter. Another friend was with us and alternated between standing with me and sitting in the car.
I have known this family for a long time and have in the past done everything in my power to support both her and her children. They have stayed in my house when she felt she didn't want to be at home with her dp, I have fed them, played with them, read them stories, picked them up when they were hurt. I've researched her rights and entitlements, taken her to the CAB, all sorts. And I have told them off before and known that my friend has felt grateful when she has been too exhausted to discupline them herself. I have not just stepped in and acted based on a short acquiantance and with no knowledge of their history or lives.
As I have said already, I am not proud of smacking her in the slightest.
For those that have replied to my post with advice on the friendship, thank you, as this is what I was trying to post about, and I appreciate your thoughts and comments.

Goodness me, you really have overstepped all sorts of boundaries. I really doubt it was a good idea to get involved in a tit-for-tat hitting exchange with the little girl (quite apart from the fact that I abhor 'smacking').

It is not, and cannot be IMO, your place to discipline someone else's child to this extent. I would speak to the mother openly about it - not forgetting an apology, first of all, for hitting her child.

Given the lines which you crossed by stepping in, I don't think it is up to you how your relationship with your friend moves on now - it is up to your friend. And to be quite honest, I think you have put her into a horrible position and one where she may feel that, for the moment, she will find it hard to see you on equal terms.

Think about it. Quite apart from the fact you repeatedly hit her young child, you completely undermined her, made her look small in front of her children, took away any control that she might have had over the situation. That's bound to put a wedge between you and her, and she is bound to want to re-evaluate your friendship.

I think the first thing you need to do, before anything else, is apologise to her for taking things into your own hands and for disciplining her child. Personally, I think you owe the seven year old an apology too, but that's another question. If you apologise then the ball is in her court, and it's up to her to decide where to go from there. She may ask for your help, she may ask you never to stick your oar in again. But I think that you have to accept that you went way too far, and that how the two of you get on in the future may depend on whether she feels she now needs to re-evaluate your friendship.

Just thinking some more. As a mum who does not hit my kids, I would be FURIOUS if someone else did this.

You talk about this child's behaviour, and that is was bad before the split. But is that suprising really. The child has experiences her parents "odd relationship" for a number of years, has not had the correct discipline/guidance, etc. Hardly a surprise, but not the child's faulkt that she hasn't been taught what is and isn't acceptable.

And I don't think that because the mum said/did nothing means she necessarily condones the stepping in/form of discipline. She may have been stunned, she may have been very upset, she may have been secretly fuming and not sure what to do next herself, she may have been embarrassed. Or yes, she may have condone it.

The poor mother. I can't imagine how awful she must feel if she watched this for an hour and did nothing.

You say she has had a difficult time of it recently. She sounds as though she is at the end of her tether. Do you think she may be depressed? She sounds as though she could do with some real help.

I can't believe this, honestly. Maybe I will be the one getting flamed for my reaction to your OP but I don't give a flying fuck.

Anyone who 'knows' me on here (admit there's not that many) will know I'm not the sort of person to berate anyone who is having a hard time dealing with something as is obvious you are BUT I cannot for one minute condone or feel sorry for you when the 'other party' is a seven year old kid FFS.

Yes it was bad behaviour
Yes the mother should have stepped in
Yes I can see how you must have been at breaking point
Yes I can understand why you expect children to behave when in your house

BUT I cannot and will not ever say that it is exceptable to hit someone elses child. You know what the children have been through and though letting them behave badly to compensate for them having a shit time is not right and will not teach them anything I think a little compassion and understanding would go a long way.

Being adults we're capable of dealing with what life throws our way, capable of understanding why things happen and why people do and say the things they do, capable of rationalizing situations and developing a positive, constructive approach to problem solving all the while being aware of the concept of time in relation to expected resolution - A 7yo child however is not capable of any of that. At that age they look to us, the adults, for the answers to all the 'whys' and 'whens'.

I just feel sorry for this little girl. I'm leaving now and do hope that you get the advice you're looking for.

maisemor, I think they should both go to parenting classes...

if someone who had removed my child from my sight, then belted my child suggested I should go to parenting classes, I would be very, very angry. I would be considering involving the police in her situation.

LMT, your first step should be a grovelling apology to your "friend" for hitting her child, and she never wants to see you again, then so be it.

You've REALLY screwed up.

OK, so you obviously realise that the whole tantrum situation was badly handled.
LMT, I think you need to speak with your friend. I personally would be mortified if a friend stepped in and disciplined my child, but I wouldn't act as passively as your friend (and would hope my DC's wouldn't act in such a way!)
You need to let your friend know that you can't be a mother to her children, that is HER role and, despite her problems it is wrong of her to use you as her own personal "Supernanny".

god what a horrible story.
"and so on"
how many times did you hit her fgs?
If I were you I would apologise to my friend and then stay out of her life, she is having a very difficult time and tbh she really doesn't need your help. you don't have the self control.

There are some very harsh words being spoken here, LMT already feels bad enough and I really dont feel its helpfull to be so nasty.

Well said Lizzylou

she is asking how she should take this forward. that is my honest opinion, she should absent herself from the situation because she demonstrably can't handle it.