Why are women still waiting for men to propose?

[NoWeAreNotNearlyThereYet]

As my title says, it's 2020 and women are still waiting for men to propose. It just seems bonkers to me. Surely when you talk about your relationship going forward once it's become more serious, you discuss important things like getting married, wanting children, buying houses, careers etc.

I'm always so amazed at the number of women who have children and buy a house with a man and then moan about the fact she wants a proposal and he's not forthcoming. And when posters ask why she can't ask him she will say something like 'I'm old fashioned that way'. But obviously not old fashioned enough to have waited for children until after marriage.

Also my other bug bear is expecting the man to foot the bill for an expensive engagement ring. Just why is it his place to buy this? If you are adults in an equal relationship surely you should both pay for it?

This is 2020 people, discuss the things you want out of your relationship so you both go into it with the same hopes and dreams. If you want children, agree to marriage first for the protection if nothing else. And women pay towards your ring, don't expect him to buy you a ginormous diamond ( or whatever ring you choose) and not contribute towards it.

Sorry that was a bit of a rant, but so many posters on here are quite frustrating on this subject.

Oh and as an aside, I'm not really a marriage supporter. I myself only got married to protect me and my children in case anything happened to him. And this actually made everything so much easier to sort when I was widowed. But now I won't have any other children I doubt I will ever remarry.
So now I sit waiting for people to hand me my arse. But this post is just my opinion. Right or wrong.

Ah, you've got it all figured out haven't you, OP.
Why can't all the other women be as clever as you were?

Well, hopefully your husband remains a good man and your marriage survives - otherwise your black and white choices won't seem so black and white anymore.

All women?

All men?

I mean, I’m not a fan of the marriage idea myself, to be fair, but I’m fairly sure that you are drawing some massively broad generalisations there.

It's tradition. Lots of things are down to tradition and that won't change for the masses.

Like women being the primary carers of children....taking their husbands surname...etc

Of course I expect a couple to discuss where their future is heading and if marriage was something they both wanted.

What I don't understand is when he is dragging his feet after ages....why stay...just move on.

I agree with you on the whole buying a house having kids, then being upset marriage isn't forthcoming.

I have to say...if I was a man, the only or higher earner and I had a partner and kids with her.... I wouldnt be so keen to get married. It's not financially beneficial to me....what would I get that I don't already have.

As a woman... I wouldn't ever have had kids and not be married. Having kids and time out of work impacts women more.

I've had my kids now and if we ever split, I doubt I'd bother marrying again.

Also my other bug bear is expecting the man to foot the bill for an expensive engagement ring. Just why is it his place to buy this? If you are adults in an equal relationship surely you should both pay for it?

Because it is a gift? I don't expect my gift recipients to go halfsies.

This is a separate from the idea that engagement rings are rather old fashioned to begin with.

Erm.....wow. Ok!

Sorry OP, you have made some massive sweeping generalisations there.

Why did I wait for DP to propose? Well, I've been married before, and I guess that horrifies you too huh? I swore I would never walk that walk again, but DP has absolutely restored my faith in men.

So I waited until he was ready. Simple as that really.

Lovely post @PicsInRed, considering the OP has mentioned that her husband is dead.

I think technically you are right OP, but human nature and social expectations mean that we don't always make logical decisions.

Well, I’d hope that most couples have a conversation about marriage before being proposed to (whatever your sex). It shouldn’t be a massive surprise!
It’s a sign of commitment, isn’t it - I know how committed I am, it’s nice to be reassured in your own commitment by having it returned (if you are at that stage). I totally understand that desire. Showing your cards makes you feel quite vulnerable - women feel vulnerable in many situations day to day. To be in the position of (perceived) power is a draw. Of course, it’s not all that powerful if you’re kept dangling on a promise!

I'm with you, OP. I'm always amazed to read posts where the couple has been together for years, they've bought a house and had a few children, but the poster is still "waiting for him to propose" as if we are living in the 50's. I roll my eyes when I read something like "he says he is going to propose next year" , I mean really ?

I'm in my 60's and indeed when I was young, girls did get proposed to. It was usually a nice surprise ,and it happened when the couple was single , no house, no kids. After the proposal, they then got married and had a family or whatever .

My thought is that you either go for the whole 1950's old fashioned timeline, or you step into the 21st century and actually TALK about marriage to your partner, decide together that you'll get married, and then do it ! Simple !

I agree to some extent re marriage and children etc. But my rings were a gift from DH, why would I go halves with him. He knows I would of married him without any ring but he wanted me to have one.

Agree with marrying before children - but life doesn’t always happen that way. I got pregnant accidentally (we were shocked but happy) we then bought a house and remained unmarried for years (and had more dcs!)

I did wait for him to propose, which he eventually did, but he then was less forthcoming about planning a wedding. I waited and waited because I wanted him to WANT to. But the truth was he just wasn’t bothered about getting married. He loved me, adored me even - he just didn’t want to marry.

I’ve never doubted he loved me and wanted to be with me forever, he’s just an awkward bugger who didn’t like the idea of conforming. Also I’m very laid back and didn’t push the issue strongly enough.
Then I had enough and demanded we do it (I realised what a precarious situation I was putting myself in as a SAHM) and ground him down!
He’s now realised how daft he was being I think and he goes on about the wedding and how it was one of the happiest days of his life.
I chose my own ring too and bought it with ‘our’ money.
So you could say I forced him to marry me, which doesn’t sound very romantic but we got there in the end and we’re very happy!

Thank you for your replies. Even the ones that disagreed with me. Obviously as I said, it's just my opinion. I do realise that not everyone will agree with me. And that's good, we're not all the same and we all have different experiences of life and different expectations.
I actually did have a dc before I was married. I was expecting the second when we took our vows. We didn't get married sooner because we couldn't afford it and DC1 was a surprise. But we had talked about it and knew we wanted to be together forever. I'm sure most of us hope for that when we're young and in love. So PicsInRed I'm not as perfect as your quite spiteful post makes out.

I got married in the 80's and my views and life experience were very different to what they are now. I've become a lot more feminist in my 50's. I see young women, and I want them to feel empowered to say what they want and not wait around for someone to give it to them. You want to be married and have kids, great and hopefully your partner shares those hopes.

Regarding the ring, perhaps I feel like two people should buy it together because it's felt like in the past it was a payment of sorts for a womans virginity, so it was promised to the man.

Our views on things evolve as we get older and we experience life.

These days to be honest, as a woman I wouldn't choose to have children, or be married. I feel like now the hormones have gone to fuck with peri menopause I could have lived a whole life just for me, doing what I wanted without societal expectations etc. And this is from someone who was very happily married and had two lovely DC.

I think watching my adult DD living her life has made me think a lot about all kinds of things, and how some things have changed for the better for women and some things stay depressingly the same.

Also please excuse me if my posts are a bit rambly or don't make perfect sense, I have a condition that affects my brain and sometimes I'm not as clear as I'd like to be.

You are being unreasonable for 'going forward' and 'ginormous'

You do make interesting points though

I appreciate so many of these traditions are rooted in patriarchy, taking a man's name, being given away by the father etc but in many ways they are echoes that have lost their more sinister meaning.

What we are left with is a feeling of 'rightness' (or not) and it's a very personal thing.

God I don't know how to talk about this but I'll try.

17 months ago I was talking to my ex about arrangements for our sons funeral. Our world was falling apart and it felt like nothing mattered while simultaneously every detail was crucially important.

We decided we wanted his friends to carry him from the service and they should be led by his forebears on his final journey.

I was quite surprised when my ex, very spiritual (not religious) and strong feminist, didn't mean us but me and my father. I questioned her reasoning and it was along the lines of he is the eldest son of an eldest son of an eldest son, a line that has been given so much importance over so many generations, it's where the energy lies with the power of tradition behind it.

I'm not sure if I've explained very well or even that I fully understand, I've had to rewrite this several times but there is something about the power of tradition emotionally, it's meanings may evolve but there is a link, a feeling of rightness that is separate from intellect and symbolism of the past.

My DH and I decided that we would like to get married and have kids, so we set a date that we would get engaged! Booked a nice restaurant that we love, had a lovely dinner, I put on the ring that we had chosen together, and then we called our families and told them the happy news! It was perfect!

The only issue is when people ask how we got engaged, what did DH do, was it a surprise?! I always say no, we planned it. No other massive life event - new job, giving birth, moving house - is a surprise sprung on you at a random moment, why should getting engaged be so?!

@Surplus2requirements I am so sorry for your loss and that you had to even go through making those decisions. I can really imagine that in times of great distress there is a comfort in tradition and walking in the footsteps of those before you.

I got married in the 90s after proposing to my still husband. He didn’t ask for my father’s consent, nor did I ask for his mother’s. No one walked me down the aisle & I drove myself in my own car to the register office. Most of my friends ego got married early to mid 90s had rewearable wedding dresses/suits rather than Princessy outfits.

Why even by an engagement ring in the first place? I dont really see the need for one.

But for some, or perhaps even most, perhaps its the fear of rejection?

I had a very pragmatic marriage with my exh; neither of us proposed, we just talked about it together. Inexpensive wedding and rings. Many years down the line he decided that I had forced him into marrying him when he wasn't keen. Obviously I couldn't prove the opposite - even to myself.
If I ever marry again it will only be if the man in question asks me - I'm 50, so no reason to be pragmatic. And if I could go back in time, I'd tell young me to be more demanding. Not necessarily to expect a proposal, but something to prove that he really wanted to marry me.

Why even by an engagement ring in the first place? I dont really see the need for one.

I found mine very useful as it was a very visible sign that I was unlikely to be receptive to amorous advances.

"But it's tradition" ... Yes, but it's a tradition that reinforces sexism in our society so that's not a good enough reason to mindlessly continue something harmful.

Humans find ritual comforting, though. It makes us feel less alone, it shields us from the reality of our mortality, and it gives us a sense of meaning and purpose.

Trying to challenge damaging rituals has more success when it's framed in a positive way where people feel like they have something better instead of the old ritual rather than just having it taken away.

For instance, a couple walking down the aisle together at the start of a marriage ceremony to symbolise embarking on their life together is a positive replacement for the ghastly ritual of a woman's ownership being transferred from one man to another as she's escorted down the aisle.

But if you just focus on wanting to encourage an end to the latter ritual all people see is you stealing something from them and replacing it with nothingness ( "so I'm just supposed to walk down the aisle on my own?" "Why should I reject my dad like that?" ( ignoring all the other parents not part of that particular ritual who manage to not feel personally slighted)).

Also, we probably need to stop assuming that the mere passage of time will equate to positive progress. History shows that is not the case. It can be lost as easily. It has to be worked for and protected.

Men generally take longer to come around to the whole commitment thing. Women after often ready to get married before men get there. Waiting for him to propose gives him time and her reassurance to be in the same place.

Sometimes for some people.

I'm with you op. I have been surprised by my supposedly feminist smart friends who have sat there waiting, often complaining when it doesn't happen. I think it's pathetic actually.

Not sure which women you refer to because I don't ANY that are waiting for a man to propose.

And this actually made everything so much easier to sort when I was widowed.

And that ladies and gentlemen is why IFAs like me love the institution of marriage/civil partnership.

Not sure which women you refer to

The women who regularly post on Mumsnet about waiting for a proposal?

I don't get it either, op. Surely people discuss big questions such as getting married, buying a house, having children. And once you've had the discussion and agreed that you want to get married, to each other, then you are engaged. There's no need for a proposal. The next thing is to set the date for the wedding.

Incidentally, since people have referenced the 1950s, my mother was married in 1950. I asked her about it once. She said there was no proposal, no engagement ring. They just decided they wanted to get married and went ahead and did it. They were only 'engaged' for the time it took to arrange the register office wedding.

I agree op.