It's too late for me. I'm stuck. What do I say to that?

[SaltedCaramelWithEverything]

Hi,

I'm going to try and condence this as much as possible, as it could turn into an essay.

My parents have been together 40+ years and I don't think either of them have been happy for the majority of it, but for different reasons.

My dad is 70, a lover of routine, stays in his safety zone, is generally resentful and is completely reliant on my mum....for everything. That's no exaggeration. In some ways, you could say it's a generational thing. I.e my mum washes his clothes, cooks for him, packs for him, buys his clothes etc, but that's not just usually. That's all the time. My dad has never bought himself a pair of socks even. He is clueless and when they are on a shopping trip, he will stand there like a giant child, while she holds up clothes and he will get mardy when it takes longer than he would like. Again, like a child.

All this is incredibly annoying and of course, it's wrong. However, what concerns me more is his complete lack of respect for her.

For example, he will leave his (clearly used) underwear on the floor, daily and expect my mum to pick them up. He never cleans the toilet after himself and yes, will expect my mum to go in with a loo brush. They were just staying at our house and she was on her hands and knees in our bathroom, mopping up his wee from the floor I was furious on her behalf, but not surprised, which is the saddest part. Not only does he do this, but he also completely ignores her most of the time. He has never taken her out fgs! They go out, but he has never taken her out. Never. This genuinely did surprise me and something I only just found out.

I said, as I always do, that she should flat out refuse to do it (the clearing up his wee), but when she has refused, he goes into 'you clearly don't love me like you used to' mode and goes into this self pitying, wallowing, depressive state. He is depressed and I really pushed him to get help for this, 10 or so years ago. That said, it doesn't excuse this behaviour.

My mum is mid 60's and is naturally a happy, positive person, but she recently told me that it's too late for her now and that he's basically turned out her light. Heart breaking isn't the word. I cried after they left this time. I have always been angry and sad for my mum, but this time I saw it differently. I didn't see her as my mum, I saw her just as a woman who has missed out on the basic joys of life.

Is it too late? It can't be. How do I help her?

My dad loves my mum to pieces. She is his world, but he treats her so appallingly. I forget the extent of it tbh. Most of the time it's just not spoken about.

My dad wouldn't be able to cope without my mum. Practically or emotionally. He wouldn't want to live and she knows this. I suspect that's why she stays.

He also ignores me most of the time and whereas I know he loves me, I have always been sad that we don't have a better relationship. He has never bought me a present, a card...he has never even called me for a chat. He doesn't know me and I don't think he has any interest in getting to know me. I get jealous when I see father/daughters together and he actually shows interest. It crushes me tbh. This isn't about me though. I've made my peace, to an extent, that this is the relationship that we will always have.

I just don't know what to do. As much of an arse as he can be, I love him and I worry about him, but I can't stand by and hear my mum say these things and ignore them.

Any advice on how I go about this? I'm devastated.

Thanks

I have to say, to start with I recognised a lot of my parents in what you were saying. They are both mid 70's and my mum has always done everything for my dad - washed, cooked, ironed, chosen his clothes (and told him on the rare occasion when he chose his own that they didn't match at all). He tried to cook once and after eating stir fry's for a week, my mum stated cooking again! He was very much mothered as a child and as they met and married early, he just never learned these skills and I actually believe my mum likes to do these things for him (she likes to be in control but I wouldn't say she is controlling).

There are differences though - my dad will help clean, go food shopping with her, do most of the driving, look after the finances, put the bins out, etc. It's just a very 'traditionally' gender stereotyped relationship but one that has worked very well for 50 years.

I think the problem comes when one or both parties are not happy with the dynamics, as it sounds like your mum isn't. Your dad may be 70 but he is not too old to change. Your mum needs to take some responsibility for this too though and communicate to him when she would like him to do and how it makes her feel to have to clean up after him using the toilet. She sounds more like his carer than his partner.

That's so sad ! I feel for you and your mother she sounds like a saint ! Unfortunately I don't think there is anything you can do to change his behaviour towards her. It sounds like he might have some social issues undiagnosed ??

I think you and your family have to be the light in your mums life now. Take her for holidays away from your dad so he has to look after himself and it gives your mum a break. Find time to take her out and make her happy! Also maybe see if the budget can stretch for a cleaner to come in once a week to take the burden off her.

Isn’t that what loo paper is for, to catch the dribbles? Or he could sit down to wee.

I’m saying he can make changes and so can she. They aren’t ‘too old’ (people never are - they may be too ill, but that’s another matter). It’s not too late.

And I agree with PP - love has got nothing to do with this situation, which is all about power and control

Save yourself before you start rescuing others.

You can't be a lifeguard unless you are a strong swimmer. You are doggy paddling around the shallow end of being an independent person.

You are displaying strong signs of codependency yourself. Read up on it. Not to save your mum but to save yourself.

Your boundaries are not set right. You let your dad be a dick to you. You let your mum tell you private stuff about her marriage. You have decided your mum should leave your dad. You think he loves you really and somehow that makes it all OK. Nooooo.

You can probably help your mum most by:

1. Not pandering to your dad's abuse any more. He's not in the slightest bit interested in you so you choose not to have him in your house, choose not to make an effort when he doesn't
2. Not pandering to your mum's martyring any more. She's using you as an emotional dumping ground. No. She's not too old to go get a flat on her own if she wanted. An awful lot of older people do this you know. She does not need you to push her or help her do it. Remember, if she's codependent, which clearly she is, then she gets a payoff from this situation too, it feeds a need in her. Don't underestimate how much she wants to keep it.
3. Being a properly independent adult. Live your life strong and healthy with your own husband. Fight the codependency that has been trained into you from birth.

NB: a huge feature of codependency is around rescuing behaviours. Feeling responsible for other people's decisions; "knowing" what they should do to fix themselves; feeling hurt/angry that they don't follow your advice; offering unsolicited advice; feeling the other person's life would be a disaster if it weren't for you. Your mum does this with your dad to a large degree. You do it with both of them to a lesser degree.

Great post, @TowelNumber42

@TowelNumber42 I second @Goldenchildsmum's comment. Can you recommend any reading on codependency?

There are loads of free resources online, CODA self help group, videos, books. Masses of them. You'll be spoilt for choice.

Codependents sometimes need a healthy outlet for their rescuing. Hence all the advice forums, books etc. It is kind of funny.

@TowelNumber42 ... everything I have been thinking since I first read the OP, stated eloquently.

I'm personally witnessing much the same scenario...but with my husband, and his mother and father. His father is a controlling cunt who has repeatedly told his mother that he doesn't love her anymore, took her car off her because she dared to retire from her job (due to ill health) and won't let her have a pet - purely because he knows it would make her happy. They have both just turned 70, both in good health.

MIL uses husband like the OP's mother uses her - as a emotional dumping ground. She's totally a martyr, and also quite a liar...she will tell husband one thing, and then say the complete opposite in front of FIL. They are financially very well off, there is zero reason why MIL can't leave...apparently she's been threatening to for the last 30 years!

Husband panders to his mother something rotten, it drives me crazy as it keeps her thinking she's helpless. FIL has been awful about me (probably because I've made it clear I won't be drawn into or put up with their bullshit), so I decided 5 years ago to go total NC with them. Luckily we live 200 miles away...husband sees them whenever he likes, it's nothing to do with me. We are both in our early 50s with no kids so I feel zero guilt.

OP, that is not love. He sounds like a self-centred prick. Bet you, he would survive. He is too selfish not to.

"Fight the codependency that has been trained into you from birth."

"Not pandering to your mum's martyring any more."

"Husband panders to his mother something rotten, it drives me crazy as it keeps her thinking she's helpless."

"She does not need you to push her or help her do it. "

Some of the later posts just sound like 'wash your hands of her, she should be able to pull herself together and sort it out herself'.

IMO families help and support each other, without judgement. Leaving an abusive partner isn't as easy as some seem to think, and a great number of people need help and support to do it. If they choose to stay, some compassion, opportunities to escape for awhile, a listening ear, might be all you can offer.

Significant change can be terrifying to some, and particularly to older people.

Really, if she has no friends left, and lacks the courage to leave, and op is literally the only person she sees apart from him, you would really have to be quite cruel to suggest distancing yourself I think.

OP, you have to protect your own mental health of course and you've had good advice about how to help your mother while maintaining your boundaries. I hope she feels able to act decisively, and salvage what's left of her life.

And FWIW I don't think your relationship with your mum sounds like codependency at all.
The difference between codependency and a genuine, kind desire to help someone is in the motivation. If you do decide to follow pp's suggestion and read up on it, I hope you will see that.

I agree that leaving an abusive partner is difficult - I did it myself at age 23. I had no family, no money, no support whatsoever...I ended up homeless for a while. Within a year I'd managed to get myself a flat, a job and through that, new friends. It wasn't easy at all. My MIL has a lot of support, plenty of family, friends and money. My husband is a only child and she treats him more like a substitute husband...it's really not fair on him at all. I don't like his father, but he does, and she;s done her best to get my husband to take 'sides'...he's far too involved in their marriage. This has been going on since my husband was 20...he's now 50.

My Granny left my Grandad in her 70s, 50 years later than she should have done but it's NEVER too late. Those last few years of independence were the best of her life, I'm sure of it.

It is never, ever too late.

I was stuck in an abusive relationship a long time and before I got out I had actually convinced myself it was too late. But it reached a point where I just wanted to die, that's how bad it was.

Once I did get out, it was clear I had made the best choice of my life. It isn't always easy but my God, it is BETTER, SO MUCH BETTER. Trust me.

"My MIL has a lot of support, plenty of family, friends and money."

It doesn't sound like OP's mother at all, since she has no family, friends or support.

Having said that, walking away at 23 is quite different to walking away at 70 and not as easy as having friends and money, as many in abusive relationships will attest.

Generally I find it best not to be judgemental about what people should be doing because we all know that there is much about a person's private life that we cannot know.

For example, your MIL may lie in front of her DH because she is afraid of repercussions for being truthful.

You refer to your FIL as a controlling cunt, and have distanced yourself from him completely, so it is surprising to hear you say that your dh likes him. Imagine living with someone like that. Your poor MIL.

This isn't about me though. I've made my peace, to an extent, that this is the relationship that we will always have.

She’s clearly done the same.

To be fair you don’t know what happens behind closed doors. Some of the most miserable looking couples can still genuinely harbour great love for each other behind their scowls. She may be happy in her horrible looking rut.

No words of wisdom OP but am following as I could have written this word for word, bar I don't think my mum has 'woken up' to this yet - or if she has she hasn't/wouldn't articulate it. Solidarity

Am now going to read the responses to see if anything can help me/her too.

Most men of that generation were in the army for a year when young, where they were taught to cook, clean, wash clothes, iron and sew.

National Service ended in 1957 when the OP's dad would have been 8, so that's no longer the case for that particular generation.