When to tell toxic PIL they aren't welcome at the hospital

[Soon2BeMumof3]

After advice about a ‘grey rock’ way to let PIL know they aren’t going to see our newborn right away.

I’m LC and grey rock with my PIL who are verbally and emotionally abusive to myself and DH. DH wants to keep some kind of relationship with them as a means of buying time for them to realise how harmful their behaviour is and change. I am less optimistic but trying to support DH.

I am due to give birth soon. DH told PIL I am pregnant but gave a false due date.

I don’t want them in the hospital, or around me in the first few weeks. They have form for ruining special occasions by throwing big tantrums and making outlandish threats. I don’t want DH distracted and upset by their hurtful behaviour when we should be recovering and welcoming our new baby.

DH thinks we have to call them on the day of the birth to tell them. I know this will result in them demanding to see the baby immediately. They live 10 minutes away. We will then get to choose between suffering a scene in the hospital or a huge tantrum about them being shut out.

I think it would be better to tell them ahead of time that we won’t be having them to visit. This way they can get their tantrum out of the way now, rather than when the baby is born and emotions are heightened all around.

I am planning to email PIL explaining that unfortunately I wont feel comfortable having them to visit during the early days and that we will let them know when we are ready to introduce them to the new baby.

DH thinks that this email will be incredibly insulting and inflammatory to them. He wants to leave it until the baby is born and then just say the baby is early and deal with whatever they choose to do then.

I realise this would be an upsetting email for them to receive, they are very sensitive to anything they perceive as an insult or rejection (and this is actual rejection, as opposed to the imagined insults and rejections they are usually upset about). I am also struggling to choose the words that communicate this upsetting information while maintaining my bland, neutral grey rock approach which has been a sanity saver for me.

I’ve name changed for this but have received great advice from this forum before. Any advice, ideas, suggestions about suggested wording or how to manage toxic people in general would be amazing.

I understand you want it ‘dealt with’ now, and out of the way but as many have said it won’t go like that.

Once baby is here I think it will be harder for them to make a fuss so I’d leave it. DH needs to be ready to say ‘both doing well - we will let you know when we feel up to visitors’

None of these people should be seeing these abusive people. His parents have already spoilt quite enough of OPs family life already and this as yet unborn child should not be at all exposed to such rubbish from relatives. None of us would put up with this from a friend.

I would not trust him to be able to do that. He'd be a completely and utter wuss in his parents presence also because he is that afraid of them. He cannot keep it to himself either, he would return to the family home as a quiet and nervous wreak.

@Drum2018 - thanks for your advice. Yes, I'm no contact with my sister but my mother isn't. She managed to not tell her about the pregnancy until the 12 week scan (which I was amazed by) but she'll generally pass on everything else. If I ask her not to all I hear is "But I have to tell her, she's your sister." If she doesn't, and sister hears about something later, she screams at my mother for not having told her sooner.

I think I'll tell my mother a later due date for now and when it gets to nearer the time tell my sister the plan to come down to near them.

There is no way to draw their fire ahead of time, they are clearly capable of tantruming at as many opportunities as they are given.

Two old adages for dealing with toddlers come to mind

Dont give them a stick to beat you with
Dont make a rod for your own back

If you tell them early, you are giving them a stick to beat you with
If your DH allows them to brow beat him into letting them visit too early, he is making a rod for his own back (the expectation that he will cave into their demands if they scream loud enough)

Given that their behaviour has triggered significant MH issues for you, your DH needs a plan to go LC with them until you are in a good place after the birth and can support him again in his dealings with them. He just has to suck it up for a month. The two of you need to agree on a plan, write it on a noticeboard that he can see if they call, role play phone calls that might happen, agree text responses and time he needs to wait before replying to texts. Etc etc. Treat it like a battle plan and try and get him bolstered with some team spirit.

I would encourage your DH to read Reddit's "Raised by narcissists page" as well as "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward.

The toddlers adage is a good one but toddlers grow up. These people are really adults with the emotional age of around six years old. Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally. Anyhow, narcissists can't be counted on not to do something just because it's wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can't stop them or punish them (i.e., they don't care what you think unless they're afraid of you).

@ChildminderMum I wouldn't trust DH to do this TBH. He used to do this with our older children but was unable to stick to the boundaries we agreed on. He admits this himself. He really is trying hard to work through it.

Also the counsellor DH is seeing advised him not to 'triangulate' (I think that was the term) by bringing DC to them. She told him firmly that we come as a family unit, and PIL need to learn they aren't entitled to a relationship with DC on their terms. PIL have massive control/power issues and feel entitled to dictate what we do, so the counsellor is working with DH on 're-educating' his parents about how to have a relationship with him as a grown man, not a child they can order about. So refusing to meet them on their terms, at their home, where they are in control is progress.

DH is on board with this. We come as a unit. This was a big step for him so I am trying to meet him in the middle by occasionally going to meet PIL in public as a family, so that DH doesn't have to give up all contact with them.

It's sad that your DH is putting them before you and your health.

What would it actually take for him to realise his priorities are totally fucked up?

@TimeIhadaNameChange oh that sounds awful I'm so sorry. It's awful that your mum is disrespecting your boundaries as well.

Have you read the Captain Awkward blog? I've found some really good advice there for managing family members who are pressuring you to reconcile with a toxic family member. I think recently there was also a long post all about sisters.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I bought him Toxic Parents but he hasn't read it. He did read most of Emotional Blackmail but stopped because it was too confronting.

It's sad that your DH is putting them before you and your health.

What would it actually take for him to realise his priorities are totally fucked up?

@LazyLizzy the OP has explained over and over again, that her DH is having intensive counselling. He's clearly been seriously damaged by these people. No-one can just wave a magic wand and take the anxiety away that he feels when he's with them. And his counsellor is going to know much better than we do, what is the best way for him to manage the situation he's in.

Only OP can read the situation and make it clear what she's prepared to do. Yes, he needs to put her mental health needs first, but let's not pretend that it's easy for him and he's just being selfish.

OP, can you get your GP/midwife/health visitor behind you on the PNA risk thing? Someone like your husband might be more likely to respond to direction from a medical professional.

Re your comment:-

"Also the counsellor DH is seeing advised him not to 'triangulate' (I think that was the term) by bringing DC to them. She told him firmly that we come as a family unit, and PIL need to learn they aren't entitled to a relationship with DC on their terms. PIL have massive control/power issues and feel entitled to dictate what we do, so the counsellor is working with DH on 're-educating' his parents about how to have a relationship with him as a grown man, not a child they can order about".

It sounds promising (particularly re the counsel not to triangulate) but the counsellor is onto a losing battle if this person is working with DH on re-educating his parents about how to have a relationship with him (DH). It is anyway not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

How experienced is she too in working with adult children of narcissists?. Is this person an accredited member of a recognised counselling body like BACP?.

@LazyLizzy I don't think he is prioritising them. Agreeing that your parents can't visit a newborn in the hospital is a pretty big deal.

We haven't decided anything, we're still just talking about it.

He is in still for a hell of a ride particularly when he fully realises (if he ever does) the extent of harm they have done to him as a person as well as his own family unit.

I would encourage him to pick up the Susan Forward book again now that he is embarking on counselling. He could discuss the book with his counsellor. Is he at all willing to look at the Out of the FOG website?.

In a nutshell your dh needs to see that with regard to the birth and first few days/weeks, he is currently saying that he wants to put his parents' feelings above yours.

I hope you can get through to him that this is unacceptable and this is a prime time for him to support you, as you have been supporting him recently.

However, I am with others, your dh is completely in denial and is putting himself and you and the children through hell because he can't see it.

Until he can cut them off I would tell him he needs to see them on his own and see how much fun and love he gets from them. (ie none).

How can he allow his children to be in these toxic people's presence? Awful. I really hope his counselling bears more fruit soon. Best of luck.

In that case I would wait til the baby is a few weeks old and have a brief meeting in a public place. Give no information about the baby's birth until you are ready to see them.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I've met her, she's impressive. She seems to have the measure of PIL pretty well, but I don't think that ethically she can diagnose them as narcissists if they aren't her patients. She can only base her advice on what we say.

Also DH is there asking for help to manage his parents while protecting his family. He's not asking for help in how to cut them off.

She's offered to do family counselling with all of us but wants that to wait until she's had more time with just DH and I.

@ChildminderMum that's my preference for sure.

"@AttilaTheMeerkat I've met her, she's impressive. She seems to have the measure of PIL pretty well, but I don't think that ethically she can diagnose them as narcissists if they aren't her patients. She can only base her advice on what we say"

My guess is that your DH underplays just how abusive they are because of his fear, obligation and guilt re them. Many narcissists are not clinically diagnosed anyway because they themselves think that there is nothing wrong with their behaviours. His parents feel entitled to act like this towards him and in turn you people.

"Also DH is there asking for help to manage his parents while protecting his family. He's not asking for help in how to cut them off".

The first sentence is an impossibility; even if he sees them on his own you are all indirectly dragged into the firing line. Such toxic parents cannot be successfully managed, let alone managed. Does he even now want to maintain a relationship with his parents, even after all that has happened to you as his wife and for that matter his children?.

"She's offered to do family counselling with all of us but wants that to wait until she's had more time with just DH and I".

When she says "all of us" is she referring to his parents as well?. A huge NO NO NO NO AND NO if that is the case. Family counselling on such a basis is a recipe for disaster. It is often written on here that joint counselling is never recommended in a relationship if the other person is an abuser; that same maxim applies here too.

He would much rather use you as his buffer between you and they (his parents) so he does not have to face the truth about them and remain safe in his own denials. Its that painful to him and his inertia really does only serve to hurt him as well as you people.

Just don't invite them. They aren't welcome unless invited, the labour ward don't allow access to just anyone, the place isn't a zoo. When moved to the maternity ward, tell staff 'no guests please'. They would have to be buzzed in through a series of doors.

Sorry, missed your updates. Seems you've got it covered. No need for emails or announcements, just keep them at distance.

Sorry but she may sound like she's good but no good therapist would agree to have joint counselling with victims and abusers together.
Not in a million years.
It is NEVER recommended!

Thanks for all the advice. I'm scrapping the email idea.

Will have to speak with DH and hope he'll agree not to tell them about the birth until at least a few days later.

He knows they are hideous but sometimes needs to pretend they are normal. He wants to be someone who can share happy news with his family. Its hard for him to accept that isn't the reality and mourn the family he wishes he had.