Child discipline - relationship issues

[MS1415]

I’m sorry if this is a bit jumbled I’m trying my best to get things down but I keep rewriting as I miss things etc and my head is all over the place at the moment.

My child is strong willed and difficult, he can be an absolute nightmare when he wants to be. I do think that his behaviour is within the realms of normal toddler behaviour, the nursery have no concerns and my Mum says his behaviour is normal for a child his age. He’s 3.5. I think sometimes I get lost in the thick of it all and think there’s something wrong with him or the way I parent but I’m told by various people his behaviour is normal - I think the most frustrating thing is it doesn’t seem to change, he doesn’t seem to learn what he’s done is wrong and carries on repeating the same behaviours. Perhaps you can shed some light?
He doesn’t listen. I know he hears but he chooses to ignore or shouts NO. He literally ignores you but I know he understands the rules as when I ask him to tell me what he’s done wrong he does.
He talks over people and interrupts when you’re trying to have a conversation
He steals sweets from the side when I turn my back - climbing to get them.
He sometimes hits and kicks and bites and no amount of telling off seems to be changing this.
He throws tantrums at least once a day if not more when he’s told no.
He embarrasses me in public by screaming his lungs out when I say he can’t have a toy.
Potty training is not working very well at all, he poos in his pants every day. The health visitors tells me it’s not a medical issue and I don’t need to take him to the doctors. I know he can use the toilet and isn’t scared btw because if he’s “forced” to do a poo he does and sometimes does take himself to the toilet for a poo. (this is very frustrating!) he also often wets himself (3 times today alone) but can go all day at nursery with no accidents so he can do it. He’s been dry for 6 months at nursery.

I thought these things would get better as he got older but they don’t seem to be improving.

However he is an extremely loving boy, he can be kind and patient. He shows empathy if I’m crying for whatever reason. When he’s not in a mood he’s lovely.
I am not a perfect parent. Nor am I incredibly patient or calm with him and I’ve definitely lost my shit with him & shouted when he’s kicked me because I told him he had to wait 10 minutes for his dinner etc. However I do TRY my best to react calmly and reasonably at all times.

So I try to stay calm, I discuss rather than shout (unless the situation warrants). I send him to sit on the stairs until he’s calm and we talk - he knows this as he tells me I’m ready to listen and talk Mummy when he’s calm. He knows what is expected of him & also knows that I try my best to be reasonable with him. I did not grow up in a shouting household, nor a smacking one for that matter.
LOs behaviour is getting worse, not better if I’m honest and I think I know why....

My OH has absolutely no patience with the child at all. I feel awfully sorry for him at times and I’ll admit I’ve stepped in and stopped him from shouting at him quite a few times. He however sees nothing wrong with his behaviour.

We differ incredibly on parenting techniques it appears as LO’s behaviour gets difficult this is becoming far more obvious but I’m beginning to find myself wanting to separate and give our son a calm upbringing. However I’m not sure what to do because separating brings us to him being alone with our son and no calming influence from me and some of the things he’s most recently said are really really concerning me.

He torments our son, I genuinely mean torments him. Examples : He misbehaves at dinner / doesn’t finish and is told he can’t have an ice cream. OH thinks he should eat an ice cream in front of him to “teach him a lesson”. I don’t allow this, I think it’s cruel. OH tells me I’m controlling his discipline of his son. He’s in trouble for misbehaving so is sat on time out to calm down, OH goes outside in full view of LO and plays with a ball / jumps on trampoline in turn winds LO up to extreme hysterics.
He wakes from a nap and he needs 10 minutes to adjust - like me before I’ve had a coffee in the morning. OH torments him and LO lashes out in frustration and is then punished for hitting which doesn’t seem fair to me at all, he needs to learn to control his impulses yes but when he’s being intentionally wound up he’s going to react. It’s like OH wants to cause an issue.

I feel like we are at war with LO not because he’s generally badly behaved but because OH expects near perfect behaviour from a 3.5 year old which is just never going to happen.

OH shouts, instantly, for minor indiscretions - things I genuinely believe he needs to be taught calmly is appropriate behaviour but isn’t totally worthy of being shouted at constantly over it. He screams at him for talking over people, talking with food in his mouth, pooing in his pants (only making this worse!), talking in general he seems unable to let the child speak and keeps telling him he should be seen and not heard. Not listening, I get this is frustrating but bellowing at him doesn’t help - he’s actually made me jump repeatedly when he goes from 0-100 about an issue with no warnings to LO that his behaviour isn’t on.

He thinks a reasonable punishment for something minor is to leave him in his bedroom all evening (!!) he expects him to do this.

I have honestly told him I feel like we are running a prison camp sometimes.

Mostly I feel OH massively over reacts to minor things. He grabs him and marches him to his bedroom for nothing. He’s grabbed him by the leg before and I shouted at him to stop. He’s rough and not pleasant. He’s also got right in his face to shout. He towers over the kid whilst he’s balling shouting I’m sorry I’m sorry. LO apologises constantly now and I feel ashamed it’s got to this. I get that sometimes if they’re not listening you have to forcefully remove them but not by the ankle surely? He’s tapped him over the head, flicked his ear. So not outright aggressive but I don’t agree with anything like this.
The kid can’t do anything right. More recently he’s threatened to smack him; I will not stand for that and if he dares I genuinely will make that my hill to die on (I don’t want to start a debate over smacking as punishment it won’t happen in my house).

He always asks LO what’s wrong with him why he’s not a normal child, tells him he won’t have any friends, he’s naughty, he’s nasty, lazy little boy. Horrible little boy. He’s just damn nasty sometimes to this poor child. He doesn’t say anything positive, well okay sometimes he does but not anywhere near often enough.

During one incident recently LO would not sit for a time out and was trying to hurt me. So I improvised and strapped him into his high chair and told him to calm himself down. OH suggested we leave him there for hours as 5 minute time out isn’t working. He genuinely meant leaving our son alone for 2 hours strapped to a chair to “teach him a lesson”.
He talked about locking him in his bedroom, with a lock, for an indefinite period of time also during another meltdown LO had.

Any discussion ends in him telling me I’m controlling him and he can’t discipline as he sees fit - but some of this seems so extreme a reaction. I’m “taking away his options” to discipline LO.

I honestly am horrified sometimes by the way he behaves. I don’t know what to do because if I leave then my son goes to him on a weekend and nobody is there to protect him. I can’t prove any of this of course, it’s my word against him so how do I stop him from seeing him? Well I can’t. I feel absolutely trapped and helpless.

Am I controlling him disciplining as he sees fit when I don’t agree with it? Am I actually protecting my son? I don’t know any more and I don’t know what’s normal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I’ll try and answer questions if you need because I appreciate this is like all over the place. I’ll reiterate I’m not perfect at all, I don’t think it’s my way or the highway but I do think he’s 3.5 he needs to be nicer when he deals with bad behaviour. Maybe I’m too soft ?

Much like you OP I don’t believe in smacking children. I have to say though that the discipline your child is receiving from your partner is much more emotionally damaging than a smack on the bum.

Of course he can be a nice dad when your child is behaving in a way that pleases him. But surely the true test of parenting comes during the tough times, when things are difficult? Like any abuser, they’re nice to you when they’re getting what they want.

You mentioned an incident last year where his behaviour against you resulted in you going to your mums. Was that the first incident or one of many? Did you go back because of the 50/50 threat? Would you benefit from the support of a domestic abuse charity?

I think PP are right - at this stage, you have no choice but to go to SS and seek their help in leaving, because when your partner's abuse of your child comes out

(and it is abuse)
(and it will come out)

you will be considered to have failed to protect him.

It sounds like he's a shitty partner to you as well as a shitty dad.

All abusive men wheel out this "I'll have the kids 50%" angle. As if they would be willing to constrain their lives like that for children they basically treat as objects and control tools. It's an empty threat. Even if your ex got some degree of unsupervised contact, has it occurred to you that it would be better for your DS to have one home that is safe and calm, where he can go back to after time with his dad (which will probably dwindle quite quickly), than to have a home where he has to constantly expect abuse? He has no safe place now. With you, he would have one.

Your OH is abusive. Some of your son's behavioral issues are normal for his age. After reading about the way your OH behaved, I suspect it's his treatment of the child that is causing your son to act out.

You tell your OH that no he may not discipline just as likes. Protect your child. LTB.

Paul I’m not sure that’s correct - I think the threshold for a child not having contact is very high, higher than is described here.

Please don’t think I am therefore saying it is in any way acceptable: it isn’t.

I'm sorry op but this sounds utterly terrible. Your poor dc. Please find a way to protect him from your oh. He doesn't deserve to be abused like this he's still a tiny defenceless child who is being abused at home. Please find some help

Your poor DC - your DH is bullying him,

For sure @growingfrenchlavender

I didn’t mean it to come across that way (sorry OP), it’s likely that as it stands and the OPs case was understood it’d likely be supervised contact between DH and DS.

Apologies OP for sounding so detached, I know this is your life and reality x

This man is poisonous. Please take steps to leave asap. Your DS is the most important person in this abusive relationship. The older your DS gets, the abuse will escalate. Act now.

Sorry OP I did not mean to blame you at all. I get it, I have been here.

No hitting, in fact the abuse by my ex was far more insidious and was solely emotional in nature, so I suffered it for years for the same reasons that you are.

He had joint parental responsibility and I always felt that it was better that DCs knew their Dad, than not. But I was very very wrong. My children have emotional and social issues directly related to their dad's behaviour and it took them until 11 and 8 to verbalize these..

Luckily I was in psychotherapy by this point, for his abuse of me, and she identified the domestic abuse and with my agreement, involved SS.

they have been great overall. They have seen his behaviour, although it took a while as he is so charming and I was barely holding it all together.

They have had him on supervised only for over a year due to his manipulation. And I have recently felt strong enough to say no to anymore contact.

It will take a long time for my kids to trust my judgement to protect them, and for me to forgive myself, but we are getting there. Please don't wait like I did. Your situation is urgent. Your DH resents your child.

I would recommend you attend the freedom programme in your area. It helped me no end.

Much love x

You have an OH problem, no wonder your boy is stressed out and acting out, ow inset if his behaviour problems would get better if you left you Oh.

Don't be scared of his threats to have your son 50% of the time. It's a threat intended to hurt you. He wouldn't, couldn't and won't do it. It's a hollow threat.

Your H is making your DS infinitely worse. You say it yourself - with you he is calmer and more responsive. When you respond calmly to misbehaviour, it has a better effect than shouting. It really is that simple with toddlers - set boundaries, enforce them with calm and patience. And if you lose it (you will - none of us are ever perfect) you take a step back and start over. I would be willing to bet that the moment you separate, your DS' behaviour will improve immeasurably.

Your OH is both incompetent and abusive in his parenting and it needs to stop.

Your OH doesn't just abuse your son when he starts to play up and be defiant.

He torments and abuses him when he is sleepy and vulnerable waking up.

He is a nasty bit of work.

I can relate a little to some of your post.
Ie; parenting differences.
Myself and children’s dad parent so very differently. He shouts, occasionally smacks, constantly tells our DD’s they’re “naughty”. I talk to my children. I grew up in a home being smacked, shouted at, ignored etc. I refuse to parent that way. It’s triggering when I watch it being done to my own children.
I am not a perfect parent, I have smacked when I’ve completely lost it. I apologise when I’m wrong and admit it. My children are not perfect, they push boundaries and are damn right stubborn at times but when me and their father split, my dd’s Behaviour completely changed. She is my strong willed girl and pushes like you wouldn’t believe but she is a lot calmer when her dad isn’t around.
Children will mirror behaviour they see, their behaviour can also show us how they feel on the inside. Your DP doesn’t sound very nice at all.
My dd’s Father used to say I “disrespect him in front of the children that’s why they have no respect for him”. I used to jump in when he did wrong, rarely stood up for him as I didn’t see his behaviour fit to do so. I also used to explain that his children won’t respect him if he doesn’t respect them.
You get what you give 🤷🏻‍♀️.

This is not ok behaviour from your children’s father. You need to explain that this behaviour is Unacceptable and he is ruining your sons childhood with his behaviour.

Your OP made me want to cry.

Your husband is a vile, bullying piece of shit.

He verbally, emotionally, and physically abuses a 3 year old.

A 3 year old!!!!!!

You have to protect your son from this absolute bastard of a man.

If my husband had done a tenth of what you piece of shit OH, to our daughter when she was 3, he would have been out on his ear years ago.

That poor boy.

You can bet your bottom dollar his behaviour will improve if you kick that vile pig out.

**If my husband had done a tenth of what your piece of shit OH has done

Sorry. I was just so angry typing that message because I find it abhorrent that he would treat a child like this.

If you happen to get a video then fine, but do not delay taking action so that you can get a video to "prove" any of this - it's not guaranteed that a video would hold up in courts etc later anyway.

I agree that your partner's abusive approach is causing/exacerbating the poor behaviour. The behaviour sounds like a reaction to a world which is extremely chaotic, confusing, upsetting and frightening.

Don't stay out of a fear that this man will continue to abuse your son when you are not present - if he does, it will still be better than your child living with his abuser 24/7. Do not kid yourself that you are somehow "moderating" this or protecting him in some way as sadly, this is impossible. 50% of his time in a non-abusive household would be better than 0% of the time - and it is extremely common for abusive men to use children as a control chip ie threaten to take them for loads of contact but in reality, have very little contact, sporadic contact or none. So 80+% in a non-abusive household is likely to be the reality.

Please call women's aid for advice about separating. You might be able to get legal advice about the house, finances etc. CAB or entitledto.com can tell you what you would be able to get in terms of benefits as a single parent.

Sorry this is all blunter than I would usually be - but it's an emergency IMO.

You need help because this isn’t normal - the fact that nursery think he is entirely shows this to be environmental and the fact he has an abusive father and make no mistake he is and I suspect an abusive partner

You need to tell nursery get professional help and legal advice to get this man away from you and your son

Men (and prob women I just haven't read about any) actually kill their dc reacting to defiant (in their eyes) behaviour.
Protect your dc ASAP or you fail him.

Why don't you consider enrolling on to a parenting course, for you and your DH?

Is it any wonder he's not potty trained at home. Read your post again OP. Tell me you want your child raised like that. You know exactly what you need to do

Your DS is completely normal OP and I agree alot of his behaviour is down to the abusive at the the hands of your partner.

Your partner sounds narcissistic at best, sociopathic at worst. He's sadistic and I wouldnt be surprised if he is abusing him more severely when you are not there to step in. Eating an ice cream in front of him to wind him up shows he takes pleasure in tormenting your son and this coupled with the other examples you have given are deeply concerning.

If you stay in this relationship, you are at risk of losing your son as you are not adequately protecting him from his abusive father.

My exH was abusive to me and our DC (I didnt find out about DC for many years after leaving him though) and even he wouldnt be so blatantly horrible to them in front of me. All of my DC are disturbed by the trauma they went through and ultimately I had to stop all access to him. Childhood trauma actually changes the way a childs brain develops. He is causing irreparable damage and you need to get your child away from him immediately.

Document everything so you can later use it as evidence if he takes you to court for access. Demand supervised access (although I personally would fight for indirect access at most). I think you've been in denial about the seriousness of this situation for a long time OP and it's time to wake up.

He is a monster! Read all you can about narcissism as you will need to prepare yourself for what to expect when you leave.

These men are incapable of love (yes, including their own children) as they completely lack emapthy and enjoy inflicting pain. They are full of jealously (he's likely jealous your full attention has been taken away from him and given to your son) and he's punishing your son from this. Make no mistake, he hates you both!

OP, did your husband have an abusive childhood himself? I'm in no way trying to excuse his horrible behaviour but just trying to understand how he could treat a 3 year old (his own son) so badly.

I agree with PP who said that your son's behaviour is being worsened by your OH's treatment of him. He's probably terrified of your OH. It was so sad reading your post.

I hope you find the courage to leave and save your son. They are so vulnerable and influential at this age. He's being scarred with every day that passes by.

I also found it strange that you kept referring to your son as "the kid" in your OP. Maybe you're trying to emotionally detach yourself because it hurts too much to say "my son". This monster is doing these abusive things to "my son", not "the kid". I wish I knew how to offer you more help.

I couldn't even finish reading that....your OH is a dickhead. No better than a bully-child himself! What he's doing is destroying your child. I'd leave him and do your best to limit his contact. Get ss involved if necessary. Force him to take parenting classes, but I doubt it would work. He sounds absolutely pathological.

P.S all of my children 'acted out' and were a handful because they were very damaged by what their father had done. They struggled with authority at school and from me because they felt powerless and tried to exert power when they were in a safe environment. Abused children often have problems with bowel and bladder control (my eldest son wet the bed for years) which may explain the potty training issues.