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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Child discipline - relationship issues

85 replies

MS1415 · 17/08/2019 23:17

I’m sorry if this is a bit jumbled I’m trying my best to get things down but I keep rewriting as I miss things etc and my head is all over the place at the moment.

My child is strong willed and difficult, he can be an absolute nightmare when he wants to be. I do think that his behaviour is within the realms of normal toddler behaviour, the nursery have no concerns and my Mum says his behaviour is normal for a child his age. He’s 3.5. I think sometimes I get lost in the thick of it all and think there’s something wrong with him or the way I parent but I’m told by various people his behaviour is normal - I think the most frustrating thing is it doesn’t seem to change, he doesn’t seem to learn what he’s done is wrong and carries on repeating the same behaviours. Perhaps you can shed some light?
He doesn’t listen. I know he hears but he chooses to ignore or shouts NO. He literally ignores you but I know he understands the rules as when I ask him to tell me what he’s done wrong he does.
He talks over people and interrupts when you’re trying to have a conversation
He steals sweets from the side when I turn my back - climbing to get them.
He sometimes hits and kicks and bites and no amount of telling off seems to be changing this.
He throws tantrums at least once a day if not more when he’s told no.
He embarrasses me in public by screaming his lungs out when I say he can’t have a toy.
Potty training is not working very well at all, he poos in his pants every day. The health visitors tells me it’s not a medical issue and I don’t need to take him to the doctors. I know he can use the toilet and isn’t scared btw because if he’s “forced” to do a poo he does and sometimes does take himself to the toilet for a poo. (this is very frustrating!) he also often wets himself (3 times today alone) but can go all day at nursery with no accidents so he can do it. He’s been dry for 6 months at nursery.

I thought these things would get better as he got older but they don’t seem to be improving.

However he is an extremely loving boy, he can be kind and patient. He shows empathy if I’m crying for whatever reason. When he’s not in a mood he’s lovely.
I am not a perfect parent. Nor am I incredibly patient or calm with him and I’ve definitely lost my shit with him & shouted when he’s kicked me because I told him he had to wait 10 minutes for his dinner etc. However I do TRY my best to react calmly and reasonably at all times.

So I try to stay calm, I discuss rather than shout (unless the situation warrants). I send him to sit on the stairs until he’s calm and we talk - he knows this as he tells me I’m ready to listen and talk Mummy when he’s calm. He knows what is expected of him & also knows that I try my best to be reasonable with him. I did not grow up in a shouting household, nor a smacking one for that matter.
LOs behaviour is getting worse, not better if I’m honest and I think I know why....

My OH has absolutely no patience with the child at all. I feel awfully sorry for him at times and I’ll admit I’ve stepped in and stopped him from shouting at him quite a few times. He however sees nothing wrong with his behaviour.

We differ incredibly on parenting techniques it appears as LO’s behaviour gets difficult this is becoming far more obvious but I’m beginning to find myself wanting to separate and give our son a calm upbringing. However I’m not sure what to do because separating brings us to him being alone with our son and no calming influence from me and some of the things he’s most recently said are really really concerning me.

He torments our son, I genuinely mean torments him. Examples : He misbehaves at dinner / doesn’t finish and is told he can’t have an ice cream. OH thinks he should eat an ice cream in front of him to “teach him a lesson”. I don’t allow this, I think it’s cruel. OH tells me I’m controlling his discipline of his son. He’s in trouble for misbehaving so is sat on time out to calm down, OH goes outside in full view of LO and plays with a ball / jumps on trampoline in turn winds LO up to extreme hysterics.
He wakes from a nap and he needs 10 minutes to adjust - like me before I’ve had a coffee in the morning. OH torments him and LO lashes out in frustration and is then punished for hitting which doesn’t seem fair to me at all, he needs to learn to control his impulses yes but when he’s being intentionally wound up he’s going to react. It’s like OH wants to cause an issue.

I feel like we are at war with LO not because he’s generally badly behaved but because OH expects near perfect behaviour from a 3.5 year old which is just never going to happen.

OH shouts, instantly, for minor indiscretions - things I genuinely believe he needs to be taught calmly is appropriate behaviour but isn’t totally worthy of being shouted at constantly over it. He screams at him for talking over people, talking with food in his mouth, pooing in his pants (only making this worse!), talking in general he seems unable to let the child speak and keeps telling him he should be seen and not heard. Not listening, I get this is frustrating but bellowing at him doesn’t help - he’s actually made me jump repeatedly when he goes from 0-100 about an issue with no warnings to LO that his behaviour isn’t on.

He thinks a reasonable punishment for something minor is to leave him in his bedroom all evening (!!) he expects him to do this.

I have honestly told him I feel like we are running a prison camp sometimes.

Mostly I feel OH massively over reacts to minor things. He grabs him and marches him to his bedroom for nothing. He’s grabbed him by the leg before and I shouted at him to stop. He’s rough and not pleasant. He’s also got right in his face to shout. He towers over the kid whilst he’s balling shouting I’m sorry I’m sorry. LO apologises constantly now and I feel ashamed it’s got to this. I get that sometimes if they’re not listening you have to forcefully remove them but not by the ankle surely? He’s tapped him over the head, flicked his ear. So not outright aggressive but I don’t agree with anything like this.
The kid can’t do anything right. More recently he’s threatened to smack him; I will not stand for that and if he dares I genuinely will make that my hill to die on (I don’t want to start a debate over smacking as punishment it won’t happen in my house).

He always asks LO what’s wrong with him why he’s not a normal child, tells him he won’t have any friends, he’s naughty, he’s nasty, lazy little boy. Horrible little boy. He’s just damn nasty sometimes to this poor child. He doesn’t say anything positive, well okay sometimes he does but not anywhere near often enough.

During one incident recently LO would not sit for a time out and was trying to hurt me. So I improvised and strapped him into his high chair and told him to calm himself down. OH suggested we leave him there for hours as 5 minute time out isn’t working. He genuinely meant leaving our son alone for 2 hours strapped to a chair to “teach him a lesson”.
He talked about locking him in his bedroom, with a lock, for an indefinite period of time also during another meltdown LO had.

Any discussion ends in him telling me I’m controlling him and he can’t discipline as he sees fit - but some of this seems so extreme a reaction. I’m “taking away his options” to discipline LO.

I honestly am horrified sometimes by the way he behaves. I don’t know what to do because if I leave then my son goes to him on a weekend and nobody is there to protect him. I can’t prove any of this of course, it’s my word against him so how do I stop him from seeing him? Well I can’t. I feel absolutely trapped and helpless.

Am I controlling him disciplining as he sees fit when I don’t agree with it? Am I actually protecting my son? I don’t know any more and I don’t know what’s normal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I’ll try and answer questions if you need because I appreciate this is like all over the place. I’ll reiterate I’m not perfect at all, I don’t think it’s my way or the highway but I do think he’s 3.5 he needs to be nicer when he deals with bad behaviour. Maybe I’m too soft ?

OP posts:
kmammamalto · 18/08/2019 06:55

I think you have the answer to your sons behaviour right there in your post. Shouting and intimidation just don't work on small children, they are looking for a reaction and he is giving it to him. Your OH is also scaring him making your son feel unsettled in his own home. It's so hard but kids need consistency and to be a team with your partner to tackle behaviours. I don't think at 3.5 he should be kicking or biting honestly but you need calm consistent tactics to improve that. I know it's hard, my.husband was regularly hit and kicked by his father and finds the more challenging parenting hard. I have to support him and demonstrate how to deal with it, which is hard as I have to keep calm myself! Wine for you. My son has just turned 3 and is way more sassy than at 2!

Windmillwhirl · 18/08/2019 06:56

I don’t think your sons behaviour is normal, actually, but I suspect a lot of that is fuelled by the difficult home environment. I hope you understand i am saying that with kindness.

I agree. I don't believe the child's behaviour is normal either. He's an angry child but that's because he's at constant odds with his father.

My father was very stern when we were growing up, and we reacted by being super obedient. Your partner's teach him a lesson approach is clearly not working, which is only exacerbating your partners annoyance and resentment.

AgentJohnson · 18/08/2019 06:59

I don’t think your sons behaviour is normal, actually

I would think that too because of my limited experience (DD is very chill). However, the OP has consulted with people who have way more professional experience than you or me and they and currently they are in agreement.

I wet the bed into my teens, was it ‘normal’ no but it wasn’t abnormal either. Compare that to DD who was dry at 2.5 months and questioned why she was still wearing nappies at night.

Right mow the OP has a challenging child and it will be difficult for him to grow out of this behaviour in a toxic environment.

StreetwiseHercules · 18/08/2019 07:06

Your OH is a piece of shit. You need to end the relationship and do all you can to avoid the allowance of unsupervised contact.

Go to war with this man for your child.

user1480880826 · 18/08/2019 07:10

Your poor child. He’s not being brought up in a safe and comfortable environment. If I was your neighbour I would have called social services by now (assuming your neighbours live close enough to hear all of the fighting).

You need to find professional help if you choose to leave him. Your husband should not have unsupervised time with your child as he clearly cannot be trusted.

Your son sounds fairly normal for a 3.5 year old. However, the way he is currently being treated is going to have a profound impact on him. Everything about your husbands approach to discipline is considered wrong by today’s standards. You need to remove your child from this toxic environment now.

luckyorange · 18/08/2019 07:11

I do not believe you are being too soft. Your OH may not realise how abusive his behaviour is...a lot of people mistakingly think child abuse is just hitting / physical and don't realise how damaging other behaviour is. Something needs to happen though. Through my work I've known children social services come in at the request of the parents and give advice on how to manage child's behaviour. Do you think your OH would listen if an outside independent person came in and gave advice? Either way their behaviour would be on record and that you're trying to help. This could really help you if you do separate in managing their visits.

LonelyTiredandLow · 18/08/2019 07:12

Your H sounds as though he works in prisons? Has some kind of middle management security role? These men seem to largely harbour low level aggression issues at best.

He also sounds as though he had some rather nasty parenting as a child. For this to seem normal some perceptions have been skewed.

Personally I'd ask him to seek help but I don't think he would take that well. It would make me too uncomfortable to live with someone treating my child this way. I'd have to leave if he won't get help for his anger issues.

growingfrenchlavender · 18/08/2019 07:17

They probably don’t see him at home, though Agent

I’m not being unpleasant. I’ve known a few cases like this, where in calm environments the child is fine. That’s not a criticism of the OP but of her DH, by the way.

HalyardHitch · 18/08/2019 07:20

Have you heard of self fulfilling prophecy? If you call a child lazy, they will be lazy. If you call a child nasty, they will be nasty.

I really hope you can find some help op. Your child sounds desperately unhappy and is crying out for help

jellyjellyinmybelly · 18/08/2019 07:41

^What @fontofnoknowledge said

This is emotional abuse and borderline physical abuse by your partner to your son. Flicking ears, grabbing by the ankle etc are not legal if they leave a mark.

The reason you haven't already left is because you're scared of your partner being given solo visiting rights (which does seem a sensible thing to worry about). But the problem is if you stay your son is still being abused and you are being complicit (sorry to say this as you obviously love him but have been gaslighted into believing your partner's behaviour is ok when it really really isn't). You know this in your heart of hearts but you are understandably finding it hard to do the right thing. It is hard, but it will be so worth it to leave and never see your partner again, and see your son grow up to be kind loving and calm without all these meltdowns showing his distress.

You can leave, but you need to do it properly (using full weight of social services) to have any hope of stopping this awful man having contact with your child again.

Make some voice recordings of abusive interactions. Some video if possible. Speak to women's aid, then ss and do exactly what they ask. Promise yourself by Christmas you'll be away from your partner and with evidence to stop him ever seeing your son again.

I've had some professional dealings with Ss and if you get them on your side and are pro active in doing what they want to protect your son, you can find they are a life saver. If you rebel against what they say and continue to be complicit in abuse then you won't enjoy dealing with them as they would be judgemental and threatening to remove your child as you can't protect him. Caveat :due to austerity cuts some Ss are so overworked they are totally dysfunctional. But at this stage you have no choice but to put your trust in them.

And massive hugs and flowers to you, you've obviously been thinking about this for a long time and you know you need to do something now.

Is your partner ever abusive towards you? He sounds an angry manipulative man, has he ever hurt you or been unreasonable to you? Flowers

jellyjellyinmybelly · 18/08/2019 07:43

Ps look at www.ahaparenting.com for parenting advice for you, and to understand quite how off the scale and abusive your partner is being xxxx

Namenic · 18/08/2019 07:56

Maybe go as a family to counselling or parenting course? I think your OH is expecting a bit much from a 3.5 year old. I have just given up having proper conversations with people because ds’s often want my attention...

No point in disciplining while a full on tantrum is occurring...

Dieu · 18/08/2019 08:06

I don't think your son's behaviour is normal. He will be highly anxious, and it is this in part that causes the bad behaviour. Take your husband out of the equation and your son's behaviour will improve.
Leave your husband while you are in control of the situation. If a neighbour were to call social services, then things could be taken out of your hands.
Out of interest, is he the child's biological father?

Glitterandunicorns · 18/08/2019 08:09

Hi OP. I couldn't finish reading your post as it made me feel sick. Your partner is abusing your son.

I have a son the same age as yours. At this age, children are learning about boundaries and are bound to be strong willed at times.

The getting in your child's face and shouting at him and being rough with him is awful.

The eating ice cream in front of him and playing in front of him isn't teaching him a lesson, it's horrific and cruel.

The things your partner is doing is causing this behaviour. Your poor child needs you to protect him. You need to report your partner's behaviour to SS and leave him.

Please please don't let your child grow up with this treatment. It'll make his behaviour worse and it'll spoil any chance he has of a happy normal childhood.

Nothavingfunrightnow · 18/08/2019 08:14

Child abuse does not only take the form of physical or sexual abuse. Your OH is physically and emotionally abusing your child.

I agree with PPs. Call social services, get help, and get your son and yourself away from this man. Do it now. Don't wait to leave him.

madcatladyforever · 18/08/2019 08:17

You need to list everything over 3 months and then go and see social services. Then get a divorce with no unsupervised access from your husband.
Your child sounds actu ally emotionally disturbed. I fear for his future.

Windygate · 18/08/2019 08:18

This is child abuse, it needs to stop right now. You don't have a DS problem at all. Do you live with your DP? You need to report the abuse and seek help urgently.

fleshmarketclose · 18/08/2019 08:23

Your poor boy, you need to report this to police and social services and you need to get him out of your lives. He is only three and being abused by your partner in view of yourself. You can't allow this to continue, you can't keep your child safe whist you live with this abusive man. Get out now and get help and support for you and your child.

MS1415 · 18/08/2019 08:35

Hi, first of all thank you for all your messages. I’ve sat here crying this morning reading it because I know you’re all right & I've let this to go on for too long. I do not stand by and allow this to keep happening which is why he’s telling me I’m controlling the way he is allowed to discipline.
For those asking yes it’s his child. And I love my son more than words can describe (sometimes OH seems jealous of how much I love him & tells me that I don’t love him that much) it’s just difficult to write it all down in the OP without using his name or nicknames hence the sort of distorted view, somebody said I’m referring to him as “that child” but that’s certainly not intentional nor derogatory toward my boy.
I do honestly think that his behaviour is worse when his Dad is around. Certainly he’s challenging but with me he listens far more and responds better when I don’t shout - when I shout I’ve lost the battle and actually take myself off to calm down before going back to deal with it again.
OH does not see it like that.
OH isn’t like this all the time, sometimes he’s kind and plays with him, cuddles him and certainly DS runs to him over me sometimes when he’s hurt. Just when DS starts to push boundaries and OH reacts he becomes more defiant. Or continues to apologise whilst being lectured. I would describe it as lectured - exactly like he does to me! He lectures a 3.5 year old then shouts louder when he doesn’t listen. He doesn’t have the attention span to listen to 15 minutes of lecturing about how he’s badly behaved.

When I stop him shouting or whatever toward DS he tells me fine he’s now your son from now on I’ll have no dealings with it all you can deal with his behaviour. This morning when i tried to discuss he shouted at me so I’m a bad dad now? Fine I’ll pack my stuff.

To those asking if he’d want time with DS if I left him yes, after an incident last year (this time with his behaviour toward me) I took DS and went to my Mums without telling him and he went absolutely nuts telling me I can’t take his son away from him that he’d be spending 50% of his time with him if I went through with a separation so yes, he’d want him.

He can be very pleasant and polite and so patient. My niece recently came to visit and it made me extremely sad to see the patience he showed to her when she was being just as irritating as DS can be (they’re a similar age).

It’s all just a massive mess I can’t afford to leave without selling the house and he won’t agree to that without a fight. I can’t house us without the money in it I don’t have money to rent and pay the mortgage and have no family and friends nearby that I could lean on for an indefinite period of time till the house sold.

I also need to prove the behaviour toward him, perhaps I do need to video it when he behaves badly so I can show a judge & SS to protect my son.

OP posts:
SignedUpJust4This · 18/08/2019 08:51

This is so sad OP. Please get your son away from this man

Dieu · 18/08/2019 08:53

Thanks OP, it's so very hard I know, and I think you sound like a great mum who is doing her best under extremely difficult circumstances.
Your husband is a bully, both to you and your son.
It will be difficult to extricate yourself, but I think it has to be done sooner rather than later. If he's like this with a defenceless toddler, then how will he be with a hormone fuelled teen ... who will be physically able to hit back.

You sound very disempowered, OP, which will be doing nothing for your confidence. Thanks Why not book an appointment with a lawyer, to see what your rights would be. And go see Women's Aid too.
Knowledge is power. I wish you well x

PaulHollywoodsSexGut · 18/08/2019 09:03

and he went absolutely nuts telling me I can’t take his son away from him that he’d be spending 50% of his time with him if I went through with a separation

Nope, not true.

This is a common line wheeled out by abusive men to keep mother and child “prisoner”.

The law has changed recently in your favour OP. More varieties of abuse are recognised and legislated for - it’s not all about whether you get hit or not.

I’m so sorry.

Kewlwifee · 18/08/2019 09:16

It sounds like your DH is genuinely terrified you'll let this behaviour escalate with age. I think you need to sit down and discuss your concerns. I think you need to be open to the fact that your son might need more rigid boundaries than you're giving him.

That doesn't mean DH is handling it right but he seems to have no confidence in your methods and without being there to see for sure, he could be right about that bit.

Twillow · 18/08/2019 09:19

He always asks LO what’s wrong with him why he’s not a normal child, tells him he won’t have any friends, he’s naughty, he’s nasty, lazy little boy. Horrible little boy.

So damaging. I feel for you all terribly. Obviously there are a lot of issues as you had went to your mums over his behaviour towards you.

Definitely seek Domestic Abuse support. This will help you clarify his behaviour and your feelings. Take it from there. And talk to your mum/ friends etc - its hard not to feel ashamed of things like this, but confiding stops you being further isolated and gives you other perspectives.
If he has reasonable moments where he expresses any intention to improve the situation, some sort of parenting class might be worth looking at.

category12 · 18/08/2019 09:25

Op, it sounds like he's abusive towards you too?

Listen, he uses wanting 50/50 as a threat and a weapon, it's unlikely he would in reality. And start documenting incidents now. Write down what you can remember from the past, and keep a record.

You need to get out. Get some legal advice on the quiet about splitting and the finances and housing. Speak to Women's Aid.