Can men change?

[TreacleToes79]

I know that we are constantly told that you can’t change a person but I’m wondering how true that is in practice? Or more specifically, do some men behave better for certain partners?

For example:

1. Imagine a scenario in which a man is with a passive partner who he doesn’t particularly love. He can be cruel, selfish and verbally aggressive with her. They split up and he meets someone else who is not passive. They clash a bit but she sticks up for herself and there appears to be a mutual respect there that perhaps he didn’t have with the first partner. Because he’s happier he’s less selfish, never cruel and has fewer outbursts. Is this a possible scenario?

1. Imagine a different relationship in which the guy is quite insecure at heart and makes his (more attractive) girlfriend feel like she’s on the back foot the whole time by trying to make her jealous and worried about his feelings for other women. She is far too concerned about pleasing his every whim and he takes full advantage of that. He then meets someone else who he’s really blown away by and stops all of these silly tactics because he knows the new girlfriend would walk away if he tried to make her jealous. Again, is this possible or would he never change like that?

Thanks for reading and for your thoughts on this.

The abusive ones get away with what they can get away with.

The problem is that often normal life events will render a woman vulnerable (e.g. pregnancy) so - no matter what a new woman she is, Miss Independent etc etc - he will likely turn on her at some point in the future.

Like having a pet Chimpanzee. It's all cuteness and smiles until they bite your face off. 🐵🐒🙈🙊🙉

Well both of those guys are dickheads so the fact that they might be slightly less dickheaded with one partner than another doesn't mean they have changed, or that they aren't dickheads

No.

Yes, but they need a lobotomy first

I thought it might be true but bitter experience has taught me no matter how feisty a woman you are - the moment you are vulnerable the abuse increases. Trying to resist this was exhausting and depressing. Apparently abusive men are often attracted to strong independent women as controlling them is more of a challenge.

I think it's always a mistake to think that you can have an affect on someone's personality. It's true that different people bring out different sides in people and incompatible people will make each other miserable, but their core selves remain the same so it's about finding someone whose core selves are compatible. People only change if they want to and even then it's very difficult and tends to take a lot of therapy and inner work and can take years.

On top of that, I'd say abusers are the least likely type of people to change. I believe this is backed up in statistics, I think I read it in 'Why does he do that' by Lundy Bancroft who is a domestic abuse expert and runs programmes for abusive men to try to get them to stop abusing. Most of the time it doesn't seem to work because abuse benefits them, it gives them the power and control they crave so they don't want to give that up, plus some of them have personality disorders like psychopathy which are by nature untreatable.

In the end it's up to us to avoid people like this otherwise we are putting ourselves at risk of harm.

Both men are cruel and damaged, no woman will make them kind empathetic men. They will always be cruel and damaged.

Both those situations are the same.
In the first, the guy is using the "passive" girlfriend ( who you clearly think is to blame? Pfft). Its despicable behaviour to be with someone you don't really care for.

Both those men are weak, and neither treat women with anything close to respect. In both instances it seems to be about power, which is a sure indication that " they " have a low sense of self worth, and they take this out on women.

Both the same thing.

As for your question, I guess if they work kn themselves, they'll drop the defensive mechanisms, but really, no one can do that for them.

No.

Theu can pretend for a while but innivetably end up reverting to type.

Both men sound disordered. Narcissists at a guess. So not really relevant to 'normal' men (or ppl in general).

But narcissists do see kindness and ability to compromise as weakness. So more fiesty sorts might be able to keep them hiding their ugly side for a bit longer. In the end though, the true them will always show through.

Instead of asking why these men are the way they are and if they can change, it would be better to ask why any woman is prepared to tolerate such crap in the first place.

Both scenarios would be a no for me. Both sound hideous

You can't change other people.
You only change yourself and what you will accept.
I wouldn't accept any of the behaviours of any of the men.

The way both scenarios are set up it seems that the "quality" of the woman alters the men, not the men themselves. The man meets a woman he is "blown away by" , magic fairy dust is sprinkled and HE is now unrecognisable.
The actual problem is HIM.
He is the faulty component.
And as the tide will rise and fall, an abusive man will return to form.
The only difference being he will have to adjust how he goes about destroying the partner he is with.
No one can change anyone.
People are fully responsible for themselves.
Some abusers are easy to spot others have more finesse, which is the case of the loving husband/dad. No one would ever believe them capable of the things they do when no on else is around.
Dont delude yourself you can change one of these types either.

You've asked two different questions there. You asked if men can change. And then you asked if you can change a partner.

The answer to the first is that everybody can change, and does change. Who you are now isn't going to be the same person you were when you were 18. Of course people change. BUT...if you are talking about anybody who has previously been abusive, they often won't change. Because they don't want to. Unfortunately, many victims of abusers believe that the person will be different with them...."what we have is so special, it will be different". Nope. It probably won't, actually. But, by the time you realise it isn't, you'll have been sucked in. Nobody should accept being the guinea pig to see if they'll get lucky and their abusive partner can be different this time. If you meet someone who has a history of abuse, have the self respect to walk away immediately.

As for your question about whether you can change a partner - the answer is that no you can't, and you shouldn't be trying. It's not okay to try and impose change on someone else. With a partner, you either accept who they are, or you conclude that they're not right for you. You don't try to mould them into who you want them to be.

Men can change just as much (or as little) as women, they're a different sex not a different species. You can't change your partner but you may be able to modify their behaviour towards you, as OP suggests.

A lot of the bad behaviour described on MN is that of men trying to control their partner's behaviour in a damaging way.

The man doesn't change in either of the scenarios you describe. He's the exact same person, hasn't done any work on himself, hasn't tried to be better, hasn't acknowledged his behaviour nor done therapy or addressed it in any way.

The only change is the woman involved, and as per pps, as soon as she's vulnerable and unable to police her own boundaries, he'll revert.

And what kind of life is it anyway, to constantly have to push back and stick up for yourself with the person who's supposed to love you?

Both these scenarios make the woman responsible for the man's treatment of her. It is nonsense to think that a "feisty" or "strong " woman would not be vulnerable to abuse, any woman that comes into contact with an abuser is vulnerable to abuse.

In short: stop making women responsible for a man's behaviour.

And you never ask the question as to the needs of women here or the outcomes for them. The woman is some passive catalyst for change
Magically imbued with some force she is unaware of.
This view of women is so stereotypical its offensive.
The madonna bs. The weak pathetic women who are unable to stop or change the mans abuse yet hi is seen as the one in most need of help

The woman is some passive catalyst for change...Magically imbued with some force she is unaware of

Yes.
"Manic Pixie Dream Girl".
All giving, all healing, no wants or needs of her own.

"picsinred* i have only become aware of this as a set up for women. the emotional drain that some people place on us (not only men, but other women) how we are expected to sort the worlds shite out for them and give a beatific smile then waft away like Mary Poppins.
In my younger days I thought it was humane etc, now I can spot an emotional vampire at 50 paces and high tail it.

I have seen men who have changed, but not in the way you're describing. I've seen them 'grow up' and stop being 'lads' who prioritised drinking and friends over their girlfriends, and then moved to prioritising their partners and families. But they were never abusive. They were crap boyfriends, not because they treated their girlfriend poorly as a person, but that they didn't treat her as a partner (because they weren't really ready for a partner). But they were always respectful of women generally.

They ones who treated their girlfriends like shit, went on to treat wives etc like shit too.

I don't think these men would pick a woman who they don't see some kind of vulnerability they can abuse.

Even if the woman thinks she's fiesty etc., they will have picked up on something they can work away at.

If a woman is aware of any mans past which allude to the scenario's you have provided, she shouldn't touch him with a barge pole as they are inherently cruel and no, I do not think you can remove or change that.

I was a 'non-passive' partner who didn't put up with being treated badly. Until he had me fished in and then he beat crap out of me regularly because I wouldn't go along with everything he wanted. Took me 5 years to realise that he wasn't a deeply damaged man that my love could heal; just an abusive one.

Usually every girlfriend they get with will think he has changed for her - because he and his family will tell her so. The family usually love-bombs too - much less often talked about. Then 6 months later the old behaviour will surface to its full extent - there will be hints before then for people who are boundaried. But people who aren't won't notice them.

I agree that families of abusive partners will also be part of the problem as they are equally dysfunctional. They want the normality to be across all the various members. New members need to be adjusted to their chaos.

The family usually love-bombs too - much less often talked about.

This is absolutely true. There is often a toxic family system at work and that system requires a woman's services to their "lovely boy".

The family love bomb is a tricky one, as it can fool the potential dupe into feeling that the partner has been somewhat "vouched for" and that they have "lucked out" with amazing in-laws, when really the in-laws are all part of the Great Con.

The man's family will also all turn viciously on the woman if/when she attempts to leave - particularly damaging if he has managed to distance her from her own family and fold her into his own.