Does this guy seem very clingy or just attentive?? Red flag?

[LilMissRe]

Hi! Hoping for some insight into a recent dating experience I had. I matched with a guy online a few weeks ago and sent a couple messages back and forth and spoke once on the phone. We arranged to meet up and he so kindly planned and organised the date for us ( he came to visit me- an hour away from his city-which meant a lot to me) The date was last night.

I should say that he's recently been out of a 20 year relationship and that I am his third date. Not sure if this is relevant but he still wears the ring his partner gave him when they first got together, albeit on the other hand, as he says it was a large part of his life.

He was very chatty throughout but his conversations were mostly about him, his ex, his previous dates and what these women had talked about, his accomplishments, his journey to finding himself after his relationship breakdown and so on. He asked a few questions to find out more about me, but they were few.

He then told me that he showed my profile to all his family and they approve. A few other things popped up during his monologue that I hope I'm overthinking but want to check with you

-He would love to take me on holiday
-He'd be happy if I wanted more kids or not
-He's happy to stop seeing other people
-He said he keeps checking out my bum when I walk ahead of him
-He kept asking to hold my hands/touch/kiss
-He said he'd hope for me to introduce him to my son
-He kept saying how much he liked me
-He was so happy we have so much in common
-He said he couldn't believe his luck

I came home to 13 messages, from him on WhatsApp- repeating the same compliments and saying how he was the happiest he felt in a long time, he was proud to be seen out with me, he'd love to see me again, he doesn't want to lose the chance of seeing me again and that if I had any concerns about seeing him or dating him, to promise to let him know.

I've been on quite a few dates, none of which were planned and organised like this- they're usually a quick coffee and rejection/ghosting from the guy ha ha ha!

I never had this kind of attention from anyone I dated before and obviously its lovely to hear someone thinks you're nice but I'm a little concerned that he's coming on too strong and that this may be a red flag?

Is he clingy, insecure, attentive or just new to dating??

Am I overthinking and analysing this?

I dated someone like this. Said many of the same things.

I'm not sure he ever noticed I was actually a human being. I was at best auditioning for the role of his gf. I was a blank screen upon which he was projecting his fantasies.

It was when he expressed interest in parenting my DC (after walking back his pronouncement that he wanted kids of his own - apparently hed assumed I'd want more kids and when it emerged I didnt, he quickly reversed his stance) that my fanjo finally snapped shut and burrowed into my body for safety. That was our second date.

If it were me, I'd run. There is something wrong with people who communicate like this. Jmo

I agree with some previous posters that from what you've said he seems to have alot of the characteristics of a narcissist. I dated someone similar in the past and it doesn't end well. I ignored my instincts at the start, in fact I remember saying to my friend, he seems really really into me and I just don't know why. I went along with it because he made me feel good, but within a few months he was telling me I needed to lose weight (I'm size 10), intimidating me and started with physical abuse. I was a shell of my former self in just a few months. These type of people follow the same pattern in relationships - idealise, devalue, discard, hoover and the cycle starts again if you allow it. I'd hate for someone else to go through the same. Before this happened i didnt even know these types of people existed. If you're doing online dating it's really useful to educate yourself a bit about these types of people and how to recognise them. Save yourself the tears and just end it with him now. He's not normal.

If you've been with enough of them (like me) you learn how to spot them after one date
If you've been with that many and are such an expert why does it take you until the end of the first date to spot them? Surely you'd be able to spot them after just one post, like you have here?!

I'm curious to know why his last relationship ended.

On the whole, he sounds too much, it would scare me away because it's too much all at once, and too fast. I'm wary as my ex went too fast and turned to be very controlling.

A red flag for me is also wanting to see your son so quickly. What reason would he have to rush into doing that.. ?

I'm really sorry - as I'm sure you're absolutely lovely - but guys like this behave that way with anyone who'll give them the time of day. It's not special treatment reserved only for you.

@FriarTuck If you've been with that many and are such an expert why does it take you until the end of the first date to spot them? Surely you'd be able to spot them after just one post, like you have here?!

It took alot of work to get to the point where I can now spot abusive behaviours easily, having spent most of my adult life being drawn in by the same patterns the OP has listed here. My story is by no means unique, many women takes years before they finally learn the signs through lots of painful life experience, counselling, doing the freedom programme, reading the literature about narcissism. I've never claimed to be an 'expert' or be able to diagnose 'NPD'. I am however perfectly entitled to give my opinion (as is anyone on MN) based on my experiences and what I have learned in the hope I can help prevent someone else from going through the same painful experiences.

If you cannot see how clearly this man is abusive (and you seem to be unable to see it on other threads you post on) then I suggest you do the same self work and learn the signs because you are at risk of finding yourself being taken in by a narcissist, whether it be a partner friend or colleague.

Sounds like love bombing to me

How to spot a narcissist on the first date

Sometimes you can spot them really early on, sometimes it takes a couple of meetings with them. Sometimes the covert ones can be more tricky to spot.

For example this one date the only signs were: he repeated my exact sentence back to me about stuff 5 minutes later, as if they were his own words (more than once). And at one point he asked me if I'd ever consider being a blonde. If I hadn't been paying attention I might have not noticed those. But got home intending to never see him again because my radar was going off - and sure enough he began to text lovebomb and when I said I didn't want to see him again he didn't seem to 'get it'. Because how could I not right? xD Ultimately had to block him and 6 months later he was still finding ways to try and get in touch with me.

Where as you could go on an obvious one where they talk about themselves non stop, constantly try to one-up you or lovebomb you and tell you how similar you are and how lucky they are to have met you and start future faking from the offset. Or give you a sob story about how their exs are crazy. Or neg you and make you feel like you should feel lucky to have any of their time.

They might all be the same inside but it doesn't mean they all present the same outwardly from the offset. Sometimes it is more obvious than others and even when we feel we think we can spot one at 100 paces, we have to be on the ball 24/7 just incase. And that just isn't always possible.

Clingy, insecure, attentive - I'd add needy and desperate to that list.

I dunno... I've read loads of threads on here over the years, all about love bombing, red flags, you name it, and this chap seems to fit all of those categories, but there's a tiny something that makes me wonder whether actually he's ok underneath. Perhaps he thinks you are fantastic, was overly nervous and really keen to impress you, and just simply couldn't stop talking to overcome his nervousness. As I say, I don't know - none of us can on here - it all depends on how he made you feel. If you want, then maybe give it one more go and see what happens the next time. If you feel completely smothered again, then draw a line and move on. Plenty more fish in the sea and all that.

Thank you for your opinions everyone. I think after reading your opinions it appears he is definitely insecure and clingy. I have been getting texts from him asking for another date. I did say I'll be all over the place over the next few weeks with research, to which he offered to travel to see me wherever I am!

He's also asked if he could call at any time to let me know when he was thinking of me and I did say I'd rather schedule a time as I'll be spending time with my son, but that texts would be ok in the interim- to which he replied that he's ok with that too but would rather hear a person's voice over the phone , especially of the voice of one he and I quote "really cared about"

He sounds like the Cable Guy- if anyone has seen the film ha ha

I don't know how much of a bearing this has on the situation but he has shared that his previous partner had been struggling with severe mental health issues for over a decade and that despite all his efforts to make her happy, she left him saying she didn't love him anymore.

I know I need to tread carefully here and a part of me wants to see him for a short date to make sure that it may all have been nerves but another part of me is thinking things will get more intense if I even entertain the idea.

On the date itself, he came across nice and intelligent, had lots of opinions which was a nice change I guess from the 2d dates I had had before but I must admit that his forwardness seemed a little strange.

One of the reasons why I came on mumsnet to ask about this is because I came out of a 15 year marriage 2 years ago. My marriage to anyone looking from the outside in was a very emotionally and mentally abusive one, but I was completely oblivious to it until 14 years in. After my divorce my friends and family all confessed that they knew and had noticed very early on that things were not right in my marriage but couldn't say anything because I never complained.

My ex was my only relationship and I guess not having any experience has made me doubt myself to the extent I have to check, or ask others for their view. I know it's ridiculous and maybe I have to go on lots more dates to train or re-train my intuition/instinct. Every date I have been on has been so different, every man is so different it's very confusing.
Every relationship has it its problems and I just never seem to know what it is that I should or should not be looking for. It sounds pathetic I know.

@lilMissRe have you been on or considered doing the Freedom Programme? It could give you confidence to recognise red flags. There’s quite a few here that people have already mentioned.

I’d like to mention I think it’s quite relevant actually that you mention him wearing his ring (on another finger). To know the importance of the ring he must’ve told you and to me that suggests he is not over his ex. That alone would have me running.

OP, you sound so genuinely lovely and I'm sorry you have experienced previous abuse. I can identify with your last post because that used to be me after leaving my abusive exH. He was my first LT relationship and therefore I had absolutely no reference to what is not healthy. What was the relationship like between your parents? Was it emotionally abusive in any way? The reason I ask is that if you have grown up around a dysfunctional family as a child, it can make you less able to spot abuse signs as an adult. That coupled with low self esteem makes you the perfect target for an abusive man because they play on vulnerabilities.

I really think you should not be dating if you are unable to recognise these clear signs of abuse. I know it sounds cliche but you really have to love yourself, work on how to establish and enforce clear boundaries but the most important of all is to learn to trust your gut instincts over anything else.

It took me 33 years and a string of abusive relationships after I left my exH before I finally snapped out of whatever trance I have been in and started to work on learning what abuse is really about. It was only then I realised that this wasnt something that just happened to me, I chose to ignore my gut instinct telling me something isn't right and staying regardless to find out if I was wrong. It always ended badly!

That gut instinct made you post on here to ask the question because you dont trust yourself enough to recognise your body has subconsciously picked up on these red flags and you already know this isn't right.

Nearly all survival experts who coach women tell them your greatest tool to protecting yourself is by listening to your instincts. Yours are telling you to run for a reason and I really hope you listen.

Have you ever been on the freedom programme after your abusive relationship ended? It can really help you learn the signs of abuse and as PP said, read 'why does he do that's by Lundy Bancroft.

These two videos explain lovebombing and future faking really well (2 things I think this guy is doing to you)

Ask him if he likes to use his evenings to waltz around his bedoom with his ex wife's wedding dess and proceed from there.

Also OP, he is alot more than just 'clingy'. He is trying to run the 'crazy ex' story on you. All abusive men have 'crazy exes' and I bet he's going to later on use her mental illness against you which is designed to stop women ever reaching out to each other because If you ever hear a rumour that he was abusive to his ex, he will pull out the crazy card.

Also, by asking if he can call whenever he wants, he is trying to monopolise your time (see the 2nd video above which explains it really well) which is part of isolating you.

The fact that he came across as 'nice' after one date doesnt mean anything. If abusive men punched you in the face on the first date, you would never go back for more. They know how to reel you in and then the abusive will start.

It's not pathetic that you want to learn more about how to spot abuse, its actually an amazing thing. It all does feel very overwhelming at first but the more you learn, the more you realise there is a very distinct pattern abusive men all share. There are different types of abusive men so in the beginning they have different tactics (overt or covert). What motivates them is essentially the same (power and control) but they go about it in very different ways (eg overt usually physically aggressive but covert are more passive aggressive like giving you the silent treatment.

Here's a really good video explaining narcissism

Sounds like he needs to be in a relationship & is looking for someone to do his washing & cleaning. Far too much for a 1st date. Run.

Haha, the crazy mentally ill ex. That’s original!

I'm willing to bet he was the cause of her 'mental illness' with all his crazy, controlling bullshit!

@Jaffacakesaremyfave thank you so much for sharing those videos! I've been binge watching them :)
My parents did not have the healthiest of marriages- my father was emotionally abusive too; isolated my mum from her friends, called her names and made her feel inadequate quite a bit.I guess we brushed that aside as him being tired, of a different generation, an alpha male, from a different culture (they're from the south mediterranean) etc. So yes I guess that also has skewed my idea of what a normal, healthy relationship should look like.

OP, your story sounds very similar to mine. My father was also emotionally abusive, mainly to my mother and she essentially enabled his abuse by trying to constantly appease him and took on the role of a martyr (so she would complain about him to me but never did anything to leave).

Because of this, both me and my DSis ended up being hopeless codependents and married abusive men (and had many subsequent abusive relationships). I always knew that I was probably abit messed up because of growing up in this toxic environment but it wasnt until I really began to look into codependency that I was finally able to recognise why I kept attracting abusive men and why it took me so long to recognise abuse (I would always stay until they did something overtly abusive, meanwhile ignoring countless red flags and my gut instinct telling me this guy was trouble).

The problem is made worse if you have been in an abusive relationship as an adult because it compounds what you learned in childhood and you end up with no sense of self, no boundaries and continue the relationship dynamic you learned from your mother (I.e being a codependent).

Here is a really good video on this

It wasnt until my 3rd abusive relationship in a row that I decided enough is enough and that I was the common denominator in this which put the power back onto me to change. My DC were my biggest motivation for this because I want to end the cycle of abuse now (their father was highly abusive). An unexpected result of healing is that you also learn what bad habits you picked up from your own parents and learn to be a better parent (less reactive). I'm not saying you're not a good parent but we are all works in progress and I certainly used to fall into some bad habits inherited from my mum.

As I said before, I really think any women who has been in a previously abusive relationship (especially a long one like you) needs to take the time to really heal from that before starting to date again because abusive men can sniff out vulnerability and you need to have a good radar for bullshit if you want to protect yourself from abuse in the future. In my case, time didnt heal and I really had to do the uncomfortable work of owning why I put up with any bullshit from men and try to recover from codependency.

My last abusive relationship ended in march and I have actively decided to stay single until I can say that I am able to have strong boundaries and enforce them. The shit your guy is pulling would have once had me hooked but now I would run for the hills. He is no different from your abusive ex, just wrapped in a different package but his motives are the same.

If you do Claire's law on him I would bet he has a previous history of abuse, harrassment or stalking. I really hope you decide to end it with this guy because normal men do not behave like this. Normal men respect your boundaries (I.e dont inundate you with 13 messages after 1 date!), don't jump into commitment after one date (because they are emotionally invested and want to make sure you are compatible first), let the pace flow naturally (as opposed to dominating your time) and would not go dating wearing their wedding ring if they were serious about moving on and starting a new committed relationship.

You really need to protect your son from this man as he means neither of you any good.

Ohh, she left him! Aha. So I'd love to hear her side of things to be honest, maybe she's glad to be rid of him ;)

In addition to wanting to see your son being weird..

Why did he say his family 'approves' of you? Like, who cares what they think?

Why does he still wear the ring - I think it means he still likes the ex/tries to make others jealous?

Checking out your bum, kinda disrespectful as you only just met him.

Too touchy - feely too soon.

Why did he think you'd have any concerns about seeing him?

Coming back to 13 messages is kinda creepy, like it feels like being stalked.

Yeah I think I would run from this one without any more contact sadly.

It's his loss .

Richard Grannon is good on this sort of thing -

I was going to say that perhaps the bloke was nervous etc but his behaviour is not on. Terms such as narcissism get bandied around, but your subsequent update shows that some time spent learning about relationships might be time well spent. In the meantime a text saying 'On reflection, I don't wish to take this any further - best wishes' is probably the way to go. Good luck, you sound like a good person.

@Jaffacakesaremyfave Thank you for sharing. I know I have to work on myself, but can't think of any tangible strategies that I can do on a daily basis that can help me. I've moved back with my father and have gone back to university, all in the hope to focus on myself and make something of myself. I began dating a year after my divorce as I missed the idea of dressing up and having company, plus I wanted to know what the scene was like. I do think like attracts like and it's worrying that I am attracting unhealthy or toxic people.

What kinds of things did you do to help you be comfortable with yourself, recover from codependency and tune your bullshit radar?

13 messages (in my view) or much more than kinda creepy, it's off the scale
and 13....
next step is to send 666 messages, then wax effigies with pins
the wedding ring to to let you know he has other options(?)

Massive red flags. Please avoid, as per everyone's comments above.

I predict he will be very hard to shake off though. This type of bloke doesn't a brush off easily. Please be aware this doesn't mean he's mad about you, it simply means he is deliberately ignoring and thus not respecting your decision and your boundaries. Another red flag.

As for a bullshit radar:
sociopathlife.com/liarliar/red-flags/