Manipulative sister is absolutely doing my head in

[Haggismom]

Please, someone talk me off the anger ledge...
My youngest sibling has over the years morphed into the nightmare sister from Outnumbered. When she was young, twenties, she was a traveling, cool, hippy chick (her words) and she was often skint and staying at my house. She bonded with my kids, was best pals with my DH and we took her on holidays with us. Then she met a lad she liked and settled down to become phase two - the perfect wife and mother. From her position of closeness to my family, she would freely tell me how to cook, balance my work life, who i should vote for, how I should treat my DH and shared gems like instructing me to master shadow puppetry with my kids to get them to sleep. Her relationship, kids, job are always fresh and special. If something does go wrong it's a hilarious story with her at the centre fabulously fixing it all back up. She discusses stuff with my mum and other DS without mentioning it to me. They then talk to me assuming I already know. She phones my older kids and pumps them for info, in a flowery way, of course, on what I'm doing but never a word to me. I spoke to her about this last year and she initially shouted me down then came back an hour later full of apologies and how she had decided to change. I realised she quite liked feeling she had a new wonderful task ahead.
In a nutshell, I feel in her quest to be best aunty, wife, mother in the universe she has pissed me off to the extent I wish she'd disappear.. She recently phoned my eldest DD while she was at her prom and wouldn't get off the phone to let her enjoy herself. Next day on Facebook it was posts about what an incredible bond she and my DD have. She barged into a touching birthday message my other DD put on FB for me and made the thread about her and how much she and my DD loved each other. She couldn't stand that one of my own kids would want to say something nice about me instead of her. I feel sidelined within my own family. The kids think she is crazy but love the attention. My DH rolls his eyes and avoids her. Meantime she's made sure I have minimal relationship with her kids. Doesn't much acknowledge presents I send them or tell me about how they are doing etc. Years ago she left her newborn howling in his cot while she made my kids a sandwich 'because they'd get hungry otherwise' . I was on the way out to lunch with them, yet I stood there and let her do it. Her DH is a nice guy but lets her do what she wants for a quiet life.
I know she's needy and I should be the bigger person but I can't fake this BS any longer. Me getting angry at her would seem to the outside world like I'm kicking the tooth fairy or kneeing Santa. Her favourite phrase is 'woop woop', ffs. Thanks - I know this isn't a major problem in the scheme of things but it's gnawing at me.

There are some people in life who are just damn annoying. Just try to remind yourself that this behaviour springs from feelings of inferiority rather than superiority. Sorry to say, but apart from very specific things which you can pull her up on, you're going to have to find a way of loving her despite these things. I know it's easier said than done but the more loving you are towards her, the more this kind of need for attention will be reduced. She probably really looks up to you.

Some people would say aww bless your lucky she loves your kids.
No I think you need to weigh things up, do you want to keep this bottled up and one day it explode or sit her down and tell her direct. If she still doesn't back of then you need to back off a bit. I dislike people who play those games. Good luck

We have one of those aswell, she is DM sister and acts like the sun shines out her arse. I avoid her because its exhausting. Its like she has to been the best and in control, but in reality she is a pain in the arse. I avoid at all costs as she is very nosy and asked my salary once.

This is not a recent thing, this dynamic goes back years. What was it like for you growing up with her?. Where did you fit into your family of origin; what was and is your role in that?. How do your parents get on with her now?.

"Needy" does not really fit her here but the word manipulative does. She has managed to have everyone run around after her with you being bit part players in her life whilst she is the star at the centre of her own universe. This whole swooping in behaviour reminds me a lot of what narcissistic people do. Have a read about narcissistic personality disorder and see how much of that fits in with her own behaviours. Am not surprised that her own H is as you describe; these people always need a willing enabler to help them.

You do not have to be the bigger person here. You would NOT have tolerated any of this behaviour from a friend and your sister is no different. How would you describe your relationship with your sister, its really non existent. Where are your boundaries also with her; these seem far too low. I would keep your DC too well away from her; they should not be further subjected to such emotional manipulation and further heighten your own privacy settings on social media. Infact I would come off it altogether.

Its not your fault your sister is like this and you did not make her this way.

I think you need to just accept her for who she is, and find a boundary that you are happy with. When you post on FB just set it so she can't see the post, if you get caught just say it was a mistake you meant to tag her. Spend less time with her, have your special occasions without always having her there, talk to your kids about not mentioning things on Facebook and how you need a bit of space so on occasion you might ask them to pretend you are not home if she just turns up. If you can't deal with this head on, try keeping her at arms length. Also talk to your kids about their feelings and boundaries with her, and how it's ok to not answer the phone to her if they are out, or just don't want to talk to her. I have had friends that were a bit like that, and wouldn't allow me to have a separate life from them. It took a while to establish a boundary but you need to be firm. When she throws a tantrum about not being able to take over your life just stay strong and remind her that occasionally you will be having family time with just your immediate family and that's ok.

CMagic, thanks. You are totally right. I do go through phases of paying her lots of attention and giving her extra love then she'll pull a fast one and I seethe again. I should take up yoga.
Kk, thank you - I did explode and that's when she apologised, modified her behaviour slightly, then carried on. She's like Alien - always adapting to her environment. She loves my kids in her own way but some of it depends on the attention she'll get back as a reward. My eldest is a good bet for her but my very shy youngest gets least of her time as it's too much like hard work. I'm not kidding about the yoga - I seriously need to find my zen. My family does my head in.

No she does not love your children in the ways you think; she sees your kids as a handy source of narcissistic supply and or other validation. She is also favouring one child over the other one and does not treat them at all equally. I would also think that your sister was far more favoured and or excused in childhood than you were.

It may well be worth your while finding a BACP registered therapist to talk to, yoga will help but it won't properly address the issues.

What family are you referring to in your last sentence; your own family unit or the one you grew up with?.

Any chance you could play her at her own game? You would repeat the same level of contact with her children as she has with yours? Do the same and mirror her? Even for a short period of time??

I would also advise the children to begin to restrict the social media access she has in relation to their lives. If they already think she is "crazy" then crazy doesn't get access to their lives, normal does.

Attila, I am the eldest and I was a bit of a mum figure when we were growing up. Years ago I had a glam job and money and would look after her when she came calling. I feel she was at the heart of my immediate family and is now using that to be overly involved with my kids. You are probably right about the narcissistic element. When anyone in the family had a crisis in recent years she would turn up uninvited to 'fix' things then busily tell anyone who would listen what a hero she was and how it had been really inconvenient for her. It was gradual and I didn't see it was happening. So, her wanting to cook christmas dinner at my house for a few years, has since become 'remember when I'd come and cook dinner for you all because you couldn't manage?'. I guess I feel betrayed by her. My mum treads very carefully with her because she can go from ultra nice to hugely offended with the wrong word. My other DS is getting a lot of attention from her just now and thinks it's all great. It's a similar manipulation. Snitzel - I probably have space from her personally but because my older kids have phones she can contact them direct. I've been thinking of coming off FB for ages so think I will.

Your dcs are all about feeding her ego. That is it.

Sounds like you've got the measure of her now and you can try and be firmer with her.

Also keep big events like birthdays off social media so she can't access them.

It's all about putting up form boundaries.

Good luck.

I have a sil like this who thinks she knows my dcs better than I do and would love to take charge. Unfortunately for her, I'm not the sort of person who would allow that.

Firm not firm

Whatcha, her kids are in primary school so too young for phones etc.
If I play with them on visits she'll watch, join in, then take over.
My kids think she's crazy as in OTT fun or whacky. She's like a CBeebies presenter on something.
My sister is the youngest of the three of us.

Have a read of the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these Relationships pages. Some of the most recent replies cover narcissism in families succinctly.

You really do need to keep your sister out of your day to day lives because she has and will continue to wreak havoc on your own family unit if she continues unabated. Not surprised to read that your mother treads carefully here re your sister; she in all likelihood would be frozen out by her if she uttered a wrong word. BTW you do not mention your dad here; may I ask why?.

Cobblers - you summed it up - she has always acted like she knows my DCs better than I do. I'm sure she believes this.
She's very outgoing so has the loudest voice. I have started standing up to her and that's why she's now working around me to control things. Holidays with her and her family used to be awful. I love her kids and husband but she'd take over the tiniest detail of the break until we were eating and sleeping when she dictated and going places she'd organised. Trouble is she's is good at stuff so if the kids were all having a ball I'd just have to say 'thanks' Argh!!!

How does your other sibling get along with the youngest sister?.

Attila, my dad died about twenty years ago. We had a tricky growing up. My mum wasn't coping that well so I was a stand in mum. I'm wondering if my sister resented this on some level - although I looked after her. She'd joke I was her 'second mum'

why didn't your dd say "thanks for calling aunty, bye" and put the phone down when she called her at the prom. that's really selfish. I would have faked a need the loo situation.

Next time she says "Woop Woop", tell her she can fuck off there, then. In Australian, it's a real place.

'Her favourite phrase is 'woop woop','

And she's still breathing?

My other sibling had problems with her years ago but at the moment is being showered with attention and invites plus the kids are also being texted, phoned and sent presents.

I will definitely look at the 'we took you to Stately Homes' post

Thank god I'm not the only one who wants to punch at the sound of Woop Woop! And who knew it was an actual place? Brilliant!

'Woop Woop!'

"Ive heard it's gorgeous this of year, let me book you a ticket"

It sounds to me like she feels very inferior to you. Asking for information about your life, trying to muscle in on your parenting but keeping you away from her kids. Like she is terrified you might form a close bond with them.

At heart, people like this are deeply insecure and desperately trying to cover up the gaping void they sense within them. Far from being arrogant or having genuinely high self esteem, they are actually on the floor in terms of self esteem levels, and much of the behaviour you describe is simply a way of saying 'Look at me! Look at me!'
Their biggest fear is being alone and no-one giving a toss about them (partly because they would be forced to take a long hard look at themselves). They are also - as you have pointed out - control freaks.
But honestly they actually hate themselves deep down, although they may not know.
From this basis, I tend to give them as little headspace as possible, difficult I know but you must try it. And also have compassion for them so I am kind but ultimately very 'arms length' at all times.
You cannot control how she behaves towards your older children or what they think of her, all you can control is your own behaviour. You sound deeply fed up and quite triggered by her current antics so as others have said, it obviously goes very deep. I'd probably even consider having a bit of counselling with a really good psychotherapist who will be able to keep the focus on you and work out why this bugs you so much. Try not to let her push your buttons.

Oh my god, are you describing MY sister????