Struggling with SIL..

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I find it difficult but try to make an effort with my brother's wife. He's always been there and kind, we had a difficult start in life with parent's divorcing and problems etc. I find SIL difficult and a little like my mum (do men choose partners like their mothers, I wonder?) She's quite controlling and neurotic. Which I could deal with. But the thing I am finding difficult recently is this tendency to pick up on things and criticise, about me. For example she will pick a topic (work, friendships, for example) ask me about it. "So, what about friendships?" she will ask me, and seem to expect me to explain my situation, then give advice (un asked for) and compare with her own situation (always better). I come away feeling small and belittled, and then angry with myself for feeling like this.

An example, with friends, when asked the above I said I am fine with my friends, have an old friend from years back and another living nearby. She started saying about the former being so far away, and the other one not having children, must be hard...it's all negative and leaves me with these thoughts and worries I never had before. followed up with how she has a close bunch of girlfriends and needs her mates and wouldn't be without them etc. I prefer to see friends individually and would not be keen on a group thing like that but wouldn't mention that as well, I don;t think she'd understand.

I constantly feel I need to justify myself and my decisions. I can't really not see her as would mean not seeing my brother and their children. But it's so wearing.

Generic answers are great for this kind of thing (I have a similar SIL).
I say things like "oh I have friends scattered all over the place" and "I see [friend] regularly." It's enough to answer the question but not specific enough for her to delve into.

I find I do similar on topics such as careers, family plans, social life, my family and finances (My SIL seems to have decided me and DH want lives like her and her H - no idea why, couldn't think of anything worse tbh).

Another tactic I tried (which SIL definitely didn't like) was to let her compare us then say something along the lines of "oh I'd rather you than me / I wouldn't like that / I'm glad I don't have to do that"
That made her quite abrupt and unsure of herself but was funny to watch

Ask her about her friends..
Do you meet up much.
Do they have children, do they work.
If she asks about your job .. oh I like it
Did she work, or if not does she miss it.
Will she retrain...
Oh ask her about the mums at school gates...PTA. Ect .
If you ask her a follow up question about her life , she won't have time to ask about yours ..

Good ideas. Thing is following up with questions can add to the comparison type thing, but yes turning it round to her might take the pressure off a bit. Yes I have tried mentioned I'd not enjoy some things such as when she started on having a big 40th birthday party. And of course, I had done nothing for mine (would really not like such a thing) to which I was a bit strange, not to enjoy such things. I also find she thinks others want the same / think the same, and I think also it reminds me of my mum and that maybe brings out the sensitivity in me as grew up with criticism as well...

There is also quite a bit of moral judgement and talk of doing more and what she is doing morally / helping others e.g. PTA, helping with other voluntary things, adopting animals which have been neglected, that sort of thing. Also with things I am doing doing right such as I had lemon juice in a bottle, (she made a point of going to the shop to buy a fresh lemon) of being told I should use metal bottles for children and the problems with plastic ones etc etc, all adding to the worries. I need to learn to smile and nod, perhaps. I feel a bot sorry for my brother, she had him on this schedule there they had to alternately change nappies, and things like that. But he did choose her I suppose.

Things I am doing wrong, I mean.

Do you have a DP / DH? I find it helps to have DH rolling his eyes at her too (he finds her absurd).

You could also try my DHs tactic (but I wouldn't recommend it). When SIL says something judgey / patronising, DH does a very passive "oh really. I'm so glad you told us that, we wouldn't have figured that out on our own. We're so lucky you can educate us, please tell us more about how all our choices are wrong" etc. She hates it and becomes quite lofty. He gets away with it because he's her brother though.

It's hard because you want to be polite, and mostly I manage this but I'm not afraid to make a blanket "I don't agree with you" type statement and resolutely repeat that I am not interested in a debate, I don't agree and won't be discussing it (for me this was after SIL asked me why I bothered having dogs and stayed that my sister was an irresponsible parent for letting her children come to my house while the dogs are there).

I think our SILs are similar. How long has yours been with your brother?
Mine is very judgemental and thinks me and DH are a bit feckless (we don't own a house yet and we spend a big chunk of our earnings travelling) but I think she's boring.

I envy those with great relationships with their SILs. I have a tricky one with mine and it is wearing. I am not an innocent anymore though, I try very hard with her but there are times where my patience is used up and I end up being very passive aggressive with her. I then am annoyed at myself as I don't want to be that person. Luckily my dh totally gets it and feels the same way about his sister. Its worse as I don't think she is a bad person. I have not found the perfect solution but I think general answers with no information are a good way to go.

Or you could just smile at her sadly with a little head shake. As if to say, 'what a sad person you are to think this is important' (don't actually say this!). Then change the subject.

Alternatives include yawning and eyerolling.

Whenever she gives an unsolicited moral judgement, you definitely have to try the Mumsnet Tinkly Patronising Laugh, along with the Condescending Head Tilt, whilst saying "How extraordinary! WELL DONE YOU!"

It's like a fucking bullet.

Not my SIL but another in-law is like this, very judgemental... Again compares and thinks that their position is always better. I definitely found a polite ‘well I’m glad that works for you but it really wouldn’t be my choice’ or something along those lines is enough to shut down the conversation and also makes them question themselves/realise that their way isn’t always better.

E.g they negatively/pityingly commented on the area we live in (smaller place, city, but lively and lots to do nearby) in a pitying way (bigger place in the countryside, pretty area). I just said, ‘yes I can see why you like it but the area wouldn’t be for me, I’d miss living in the city and having everything on my doorstep, we like to go out to eat etc etc’.

*they have a bigger place in the countryside

Yes, we also have had comments about our home...just after they bought a new house. Sometimes, it is hard not to comment also as I feel they can sometimes make silly financial decisions. But I don't want to try and say anything as would just be kind of joining in and might make things worse! (we have small place but bought years ago so nearly paid off small mortgage- but get comments on it being unsuitable / small)

Yes it can be tricky because if just let it go in can kind of 'stew' but sometimes hard to say something, like the above. My brother I noticed does say something sometimes- he did with the lemon thing as it held up us eating dinner waiting for her going to the shop!

Something else we also had was trying to include my brother in her stuff and then presenting their shared view to get me to do things. For example with my parents - about a certain gift, asking me to join and if I said no they wouldn't do it, and telling me 'we think'. This was a bit weird, and I asked why they wanted my opinion on it, and it was up to them what they did with the parents and not to involve me...It's not easy and unfortunately so like my parents (mum very controlling and domineering- dad left in the end)

My difficulty is, she feels the children need to meet up and see each other regularly. This is due to her not having cousins in her life as a child. However they are different ages / sexes and it is a bit tricky.

We are also in the city and feel the same btw. Sometimes they seem to assume we all want the 'place in the country' but I grew up there and find it better where we are with teens, now as things so close. So I can say about how much easier it makes life and that they don't need run around, can go independently to cinema, shops, etc with friends. I also say sometimes 'We're all different".

The we are all different is good.
The oh yes that is a good idea, yes you should go ahead, however I won't be joining in.
You agree then disagree, with what she says..
Yes metal bottles are a good idea, but you know teens they lose things, it is far cheaper for us too just hand them a bottle of water and recycle the Bottle afterwards.
Fresh lemon is nice, but it is so handy to just use the juice, and actually there are less air miles on my bottle than fresh lemons, so it is swings and roundabouts.
About your small house, well square footage is so much more expensive in the city, but once the children leave, the mortgage will be paid off, and we can see how we feel.

I think it needs to be a range of generic comments or actions that bounce it back firmly to her and close it all down immediately. So that you are calling her on it from the outset and she is clear by your tone (assertive, doesn’t have to be aggressive).

Dragging conversations politely through lemons, houses, gifts is just a wild goose chase. Drop the rope - don’t play her game.

She is trying to put you down each and every time.

Really?
What do you mean by that?
Did you mean to be so rude?
Is that what you really think?
No. This is what I want to do.
No. This is how I do it.
Enough. This is what will happen.
No. This is how we will do it.
No. That won’t work for me.
Not interested in discussing this.
I don’t need to justify my choices.

Enlist your brother and DH. Talk to them about how it makes your feel. They will both know exactly what is happening - ask them when you give them the nod - to step in.

People like her need to be boxed in.

Thanks, good ideas. Yes justifying yourself can get tiring, and what need? It can end up in arguments. Good points though!

What about Why? This is another thing, she asks me why I do things. For example I mentioned I had been asked to participate in an unpaid work thing for a mum at the school, who needed some help with something. She then asked why? and wanted me to explain. I just shrugged and said I didn't really want to, but she didn't seem to accept that and said 'oh, I suppose it wasn't paid'.

I was a bit cross about this afterwards as have been trying to work on being more assertive and saying no. But she made it seem as though I should have done it and needed to be paid or something. It's all bit strange.

I'm not sure what to do in future about the cousins thing. They live quite far away and when they visit it is a stay. But I feel bad refusing as they feel the cousins want to see our children. But when they do they just seem to really want access to the computer etc (as they are not allowed access to screens at home- another 'bad thing' we do).

I guess "Why do you need to ask / know that?" but it can come across a bit defensive. Or just walking away perhaps / changing the subject.

I think some if it is lies, as well. Foe example she was saying she never enjoys shopping nowadays, just isn't interested, (she is funny about any kind of capitalism / enjoyment from money etc) but then the next thing was saying about getting some time to go shopping (well, browsing). I don't really understand it.

We stopped that one.. the staying for free, and computers.
We met half way booked rooms and did something....
I told them mine found it a bit boring and this way everyone gets too do something new.
Plus not having to provide the food , treats and washing afterwards meant it didn't cost us that much more...

Don’t worry about sounding aggressive - yiu need to meet like with like - these types have a thick skin or feel entitled to do and say what they like - clearly she hasn’t picked up your polite social clues to date - so need to make sure she hears you.

Yes I was also going to say meet half way. Change the environment - distraction technique like you would do with a tedious toddler - so that she isn’t scrutinising and judging your home. If there are costs involved it might mean that she won’t meet as often or stay as long to eat or stay overnight. Also be clear how often you need the cousins to meet - x3 a year at summer, Xmas and Easter school holidays is more than enough. Day out so you can walk ahead, sit next to someone else or are all distracted doing an activity. Would take the stress off and be a nice thing for the kids.

Also how big is the age range - as teen cousins soon manage fill their own social life and to swerve such things.

Good play if they lived a bit closer but it is hundreds of miles away so that would only work if we booked a cottage together or something (then would be stuck for days at least!)

I have suggested they book somewhere when they come stay (as ours is so small etc, and it is)

Well, there is a 6 year gap with the boys, mine are mid teens and theirs younger, then the two younger are boy / girl and a bit shy with one another. I wonder how it will change as they get older. (and don't 'play' as much) I feel bad thinking that as of course it is nice for cousins to be close, I suppose. I'm not sure, never really was close to mine and big age gap there.

The other thing is I am not close with my mum (due to similar but worse) my mum has difficult mental health and had to distance myself due to her thinking things like I am 'on drugs' and the like, also being very critical and phoning my work etc so having to hide things from her...SIL does not seem to understand this and asks things from mum as to why I am staying away and reporting back to her (my brother understands totally though). Sigh. My mum used to say strange things about SIL and what she and her friends 'might think' e.g. that I was breastfeeding at her (SIL) wedding reception. So that kind of makes it worse in a way and feel much better away from both of them!

I suppose it makes sense SIL may not get it with mum as sounds pretty similar too. I kind of assumed it was just my family who was like this but it seems not.

Thankfully DH's family, although a little anxious, are not like this and I wave a good relationship with them, they are also nearby so that gets things into perspective a bit.

Good idea I mean,

"teen cousins soon manage fill their own social life and to swerve such things."

Yes, I feel this is happening with my eldest, he is mid teens now. He ends to get left with their little boy and doing things for him, and he says he 'doesn't mind' but after a couple of hours he did seem fed up!

Yes I remember being a teen and finding it a bit awkward with cousins, mind you they were young adults as a bit older.

Mine get on quite well with cousins on DH's side but then that is different also as a lot older and younger, so the older ones in 20s have had hours to look after (babysitting) and the babies are like a fun thing to play with for a while.

Some good ideas here op
But never loose sight of the fact that you and your choices are fine

I suspect she’s a bit jealous. And so wants to feel like she’s ‘better’ to make herself feel good

Honestly I think I would need to have it firmly in my mind that this person would never step over my threshold again to criticise and subjugate me. She will never change and it sounds like her behaviour triggers the trauma of your DM for you - so you have to put your own MH first and emotionally protect yourself from her.

You could just book a BnB in between for a Saturday night. Do some activity on the Saturday daytime, evening meal at a restaurant and then head off home after breakfast on a Sunday. Stretch out how often you see each other year by year - keep kicking meet ups into the long grass.

Oh I'd be tempted to say, "Honestly, SIL, every time we see you, you tell us we're doing something wrong. This works for us and we're really happy." And perhaps lob in something about having paid off the mortgage to make her choke with envy.

I could possibly take the children (DH finds them- SIL anyway, hard work as well) and stay near by old friend who is not far from them...and kind of visit for the day. Or they could come to friends possibly.

However when I ask if they can keep it quiet in terms of mentioning such visits to my mum, SIL said I was 'keeping secrets' and she wasn't happy about doing this. Then my niece (her daughter) told me we didn't tell Granny about the visit...felt bad then. It's all so tricky. I didn't mean to lie but just to maybe not mention it in case she turned up also, uninvited (as they do)

I have also had strange things like my mum sending messages through the niece, just things like 'Granny says to say hello'. It's all odd. (well i think so anyway).

I agree gently extending time between visits sounds reasonable. Thoughts with anyone else going through these tricky situations.