Can we come back from this?

[CoffeeChocolateWine]

My DH and I have been together for 14 years, married for 8 and have 3 DC aged 10, 6 and 8 months. I’ve always felt our relationship was strong...we’ve had ups and downs over the years like any relationship but always felt that we had each other’s back, we’re united and generally felt like I’d married one of the really good men out there.

But over the past year he has let me down spectacularly. After making the decision to try for a third child and getting pregnant, he’s had some kind of mid-life crisis. Quite early on in my pregnancy he started making comments that he was ‘struggling to excited’ about having another baby. In my second trimester, it was very clear that I was expecting a very big baby, I was tired, heavy and really suffering with heartburn but really tried to keep upbeat and busy but he told me that he felt that he and the kids were really suffering as a result of me and my pregnancy. A few weeks before I was due to,give birth, he told me that he’d changed his mind, didn’t want another baby and if he could turn back time he would undo it, leaving me understably very upset at a time when I really could have done with his full support.

During the very early weeks after our DD was born, he was largely absent...he threw himself into his work, went to every conference, work jolly and networking event going and I basically felt abandoned to look after the baby (who at that point had undiagnosed CMPA so lots of screaming), a very emotional 5yo who was struggling to adapt to not being the baby of the family anymore, and a 9yo who felt he needed to step up and comfort his little sister because I had my hands full with the baby and my husband just wasn’t there. It was an incredibly hard time and he basically just left me to it and didn’t seem to give a shit. After a few weeks, we had an argument where he said that he didn’t see why his life should have to change at all after having a baby because it was me who wanted the baby not him. He said the words ‘you’ve got what you want now, so now I’m doing what I want’. It also transpired that he had started getting close to a young woman (in her twenties - we are early forties) who he consistently lied to me about by omission and later lied to my face about spending time with. There was no affair but there is no doubt in my mind that it was heading that way had I not found out about. This is a very edited version...there’s too many things that I could write about but it has been a horrible horrible time.

Anyway, fast forward to now. We have had some very long and emotional chats where I’ve told him how much his actions and words have hurt me, I’ve felt completely taken for granted and undervalued, the way he has treated his baby daughter is despicable, I’ve lost trust in him etc etc. He’s shown a lot of genuine, I think, remorse. He has also totally fallen in love with our baby and is making an effort to help and bond with her. He has agreed to counselling and is making a real effort to make things better between us and rebuild the trust.

But, the thing is...after everything that has happened, I don’t feel the same. I never thought he could let me down and treat me as badly as he has. Not only was he unsupportive at a time when I really needed his support, he actually made a challenging time one hell of a lot harder because of his behaviour. When I look back on my DD’s babyhood, I will always remember what a shit time he put me through when I should have been enjoying her. He’s ruined that for me. He is making such an effort now but I feel bitter and resentful. I look at him bonding with our daughter and feel that he doesn’t deserve her. He keeps telling me that he’s ‘struggled to adapt’ to having another baby but that ‘things are getting better now’, but I just think it’s a piss poor excuse and that things aren’t getting better because I’ve seen him in a different light now and things have changed forever. We’re going to go to counselling but I’m starting to wonder if I can ever move on from this. I don’t know what I’m asking really. Has anyone been through this and got through it? Is this salvageable? I would do anything to keep my family together but my husband is not the man I thought he was.

I can't comment from experience, but I guess the counselling has got to be worth a try. I can see how hard it is for you and I totally get feeling resentful about how he behaved, though it could be a temporary, as you say 'mid life crisis' thing that he's got over. Perhaps something you can work with will come out of counselling, perhaps not, but it's worth a shot and perhaps he needs to know he has a lot of work to make up for how he spoiled your early days with DD.

I agree he needs to know how you feel and how damaging his behaviour has been to your marriage. Perhaps if he understands and accepts that you may feel better....

What might help is trying to separate his behaviour and struggles with the situation with current status. He was nasty, he was unkind but it that was him struggling with it. Rather than actually him. He was either unwell mentally or emotionally and that's how it was expressed. I'm not saying you forget it or just forgive easily, just it might help you deal with it to try break it down that way. If you know what I mean.

Your husband did have an affair, an Emotional Affair (and possibly more). This was cheating. He channeled emotional energy, time and attention into the OW, to your detriment.

Emotional Affairs are just as devastating as Physical Affairs, as there is an intimate connection. As you had made a joint decision to try for baby, and he turned on you shortly after you became pregnant, the affair must have begun around then.

A cheater will often become irritable and critical of his/her partner, creating emotional distance to justify cheating. Your husband did this on a grand scale, and set the stage with his lame “struggling to adapt” excuse. He abandoned you, treating both you and his baby with disdain while selfishly enjoying and prioritizing his adventure with the OW. He felt entitled to traumatize you when you and his family were in dire need.

Now, in the aftermath, he seems sorry, but you are left with the emotional wounds that he inflicted. Are you sure that the affair is over? You should consider imposing sharp consequences by sending him away for a while to give you space to decide what you want to do. He will learn that you mean business and will respect that.

If he is truly remorseful, he needs to be entirely truthful about his affair, answering all of your questions. He must take your anger and hurt whenever you need to express them. He must offer transparency on all devices.

This man has weak boundaries and dysfunctional coping mechanisms that led him to cheat and treat you despicably. He needs to seek individual counseling to investigate the faulty elements in his character that led to this behavior, and learn coping strategies to safeguard his fidelity.

You should seek the support of individual counseling to express your hurt and outrage, and to organise your thoughts and decisions. You may decide that what he did was too reprehensible to forgive.

Personally, I would move forward without him. I would never trust him again.

I cant give you the answer but I can give you a hand hold as you're not alone. I'm still in the thick of it and I don't know what the future holds. DH was awful at the end of my pregnancy and when DD was born. She's 6 months now and I'm still reeling from the drama and lack of support from him and his family. He was beyond selfish, moaning about driving an hour either way whilst I moved into the special care unit to be with DD having just had a c section. We don't sleep in the same bed because apparently DD disturbs him but then he moans that we don't have sex. He's recently started hugging me more and telling me he loves me, and making an effort with DD who now adores him, but I just don't know if I can move on. Don't rush yourself for his benefit. Make sure he is doing his fair share of chores and childcare for a start and making an effort to rebuild your relationship. If I'm still looking for the answer.

Oh my god. I just read your post, I'm awake two hours early for some daft reason. I can't believe what you said. That is AWFUL. The only example of a long marriage I know of is my parents. My dad would never have done that to my mum. If he even snaps at her we jump in and tell him to shush. He wouldn't get away with it but he wouldn't do it because he loves her so much. He has terminal cancer now and is very sick, mum is heart broken and so is he, we all are. I just don't think he loves you. I can't see how you could do such an awful thing to someone you're meant to love at such a vulnerable time. He was meant to be looking after you and his other children but basically leaving you to it and even saying he had changed his mind about the baby when you were already pregnant? What did he want you to do? Pull it out and flush it down the loo? When I was 21 I'd been with my partner 3 years before our son came along and he did that to me BUT we didn't have other children and weren't married. I went into labour but HE got tired so left me at the hospital, the midwives kept asking me where he had gone and told me to ring him to come back in. He wouldn't. In the end they rang him and told him to get back in. He did but was fuming, he thought Id told them to ring him. After wards I had a reaction to the injection to get the placenta out and was vomitting, they went off to get me an anti sickness jab but he was peeling a banana telling me I had to eat it as they'd told him he couldn't leave until I was up on the ward and had eaten something!! It was absolutely awful. I was on my own on the ward for two days because he went off to silverstone car races and everyone felt sorry for me, one of the dads came over and brought me chocolates and asked if I was ok. I was so embarrassed and hurt and felt totally betrayed. I knew then he didn't love me. We went on to have another daughter and they've done well (both at uni now) but he has never had anything to do with them since we split when my daughter was one. (He had an affair with a work colleague when I was pregnant with her) I don't know what you should do but I know the feeling of him not being the man you thought he was and if you do recover from this I think it will take a long time. That's too hurtful and cruel for words. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I genuinely am.

I was going to suggest cherchez la femme as I was reading, and then saw there was one. I suspect that was at root of his behaviour and he's minimising what happened.

I can't believe what I read sometimes. He changed his mind and didn't want a baby anymore, and you went into labour anyway so it's what you wanted, not what he wanted. It's outrageous and I can understand why you are struggling to get past his behaviour. He broke the trust. He wasn't there when you needed him. What made him "realise" he was wrong? I don't think you lose anything by doing counselling but I would need a lot of clarifications and reassurances before letting him out of the doghouse.

I think @MsDogLady absolutely hit the nail on the head with her post. Your husband cheated, possibly after your pregnancy started and he realised the enormity of having a third child and again how your life would change. That being said, he should have discussed his fears and issues with you instead of finding an emotional connection with you. It's likely his behaviour towards you stems from the fact that he got closer to OW and further away from you, which is hurtful enough but in a time where you desperately needed him. He hasn't considered you in any of this and has been relentlessly selfish until hes apparently realised the error of his ways.
I agree that if it were me I'd be asking him to find somewhere else to stay whilst you go through counselling and explain that whilst you are happy he now has the desired relationship with his DD, you dont feel the same towards him as you did because his behaviour has been so damaging and that you need to be away from him for a while whilst you sort out your feelings. Living in such close proximity whilst hes there all the time trying to be apologetic is just going to cause you to be hurt and angry repeatedly and you need to be there for your children.
I understand how you feel, I left my ex because of his selfish and relentless nastiness but initially I asked for space and separation so that I could figure out the best for me.
I hope that somehow you figure out what is best for you, whether being with him and working through it or deciding that you can't ever trust him again.
I'm sorry that you went through this, nobody who'd carried three beautiful children for somebody should have to suffer that. Xx

Emotional connection with her** lol typo much

Sadly, you are in the trap. Your mind sets it up, when you find out your partner is a loathsome, cheating bastard. You want to stay together - part 'sunk costs' ('All the years I've put in'), part fear ('How will me and the children manage?') and part instinct ('I shag this one. If I shag him more, he'll stay'.)' You are committed to what you thought the relationship was, not what it is.

Do not have counselling with your husband. You will be encouraged to jump through hoops emotionally and it won't work. He's already left the relationship. Instead, have counselling alone to work out where you really are now.

Also, quietly, before you say anything definite to him, organise your solicitor and all the legal stuff. They used to say 'get your ducks in a row' on mn, and I thought it was very expressive.

You know all the above. Don't waste any more of your life on this man.

People always forget that if the man is truly sorry, regrets what he has now -already - lost, he can spend the rest of his life on the sidelines, making up for it. How many do you know who have done that? No, nor do I. They don't regret doing it, they regret being caught.

he sounds like he has been a total wanker but people can make mistakes and realise what they might have lost. It's all down to whether you can forgive him and whether you think he is truly resourceful. You do serve better - can he be better? Only you know that

*remourceful

I suspect his behaviour around that was largely to do with the other woman and fuck all to do with struggling to bond or cope or wherever else he's trotting out. It's just classic cheater behaviour. Give the counselling a try if you feel you want to, but don't rush yourself to try to get over it or forgive. He treated you shittily, made a hard time almost impossible and betrayed your trust. You need to work through this properly if you want to stay with him.

OP

I am fairly sure you posted about this before. So I recall some of the detail. I did not keep up with the cherchez la femme turn it took because clearly you found her and established what was going on. I think what you say is correct, there was no reciprocated affair (emotional or physical) but he was certainly diverted from you and the family. My sense then was also that he had checked out or was starting to check out before the baby was conceived. I didn’t think you saw that at the time and from this post maybe still don’t. I am not saying you are wrong but that was my perception

If I am right then there were issues in the marriage long before the baby came but the baby highlighted and reinforced them for him. It caused an almost complete disconnect. It’s wasnt just the baby, it was family life and responsibilities.

He doubled down on being a complete breadwinner (& socialiser) leaving you with all the homemaker work. I wonder if this is not the source of his problems. Being a breadwinner can stop people from enjoying or indeed experiencing parenting. That can be a choice and some people just don’t want to do parenting to some extent or another. A lot of the time it gets thrust upon people without them realising it. Eventually they feel and become disconnected or irrelevant to family life. He wonders what it is all for.

This period has been far from his finest hour. He should have been honest with you a lot earlier and he should not have lied. I think he is still not being honest about his feelings and deep down you know this. And you need to know how he really feels about you, all the children and family life, as it is and how it could be.

Counselling individually and together helps people get to positions of honesty. That honesty can shift expectations of the marriage and outcomes. You both really need to find out what was at the core of this episode for the sake of the children. As it stands the fundamentals, for both of you, have not changed even if he realised how much he had to lose.

Your story is touching and you express yourself very well. To answer your question - Yes you can come back from this but..
I feel you need much healing yourself and move towards forgiving him, otherwise you are in danger of demanding a pound flesh from him. Take a few lessons along the way: people can - and will let you down. Anyone - even your own parents or best friend - or indeed a great husband! As long as it's a person, there is always that possibility. But you say, he is making an effort at bonding etc.- that is good and to be encouraged. This is your time to shine now by exercising self control and extending grace and love. Receive him. This is difficulty and something you are unlikely to be advised here. But if you want to kick evil, and strife and division out of your household, you are going to have to be the mature one and lead by excellent example. Returning bad for bad will not make a right - though you might feel vindicated or even a sort of revenge pleasure - in the long term it's just a civil war; and there are now winners in that war. A house divided cannot stand. Work towards reconciliation and forgiveness, no matter how difficult, and you shall reap a bumper harvest in time.

Too much tit-for-tat mentality in the world today - don't fall for that!!

I’m NOT defending him. But...did he want this baby?

It’s an older age to be having one. And 5 years is a big age gap.

I mean, how do you “fix” someone not wanting to be a parent again, but having no choice in the matter.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not “blaming” you but...I just don’t think that’s something you can counsel your way through!

OP I think on mumsnet people are often quite stern about marraige problems - but I think in a long marriage there inevitably going to be moments when we are not acting our best.

Do you think that in the context of an otherwise good marriage it is worth working to fix a problem that lasted a year or so? I think it is - if the partner is remorseful and wants to put in the work.

You have a very young baby - don't make big decisions now. I think you need to give this time and see his commitment.

Having a baby is hugely damaging to relationships! With both of mine the first two years led to huge resentment and arguments - just for exhaustion - without other things thrown in.

Because you had a five year gap maybe you forgot how shit you tend to feel for the first year anyway.

I am not saying his behaviour was anything other than appalling - but life is long and if you love him and think he was the right man for you- then I think you and your three kids and him need to try to work it out.

I was also going to ask was the decision to try for a third child truly a joint, enthusiastic decision? Not that it's make anything ok bug it might explain some of his behaviour.

Anyway on main topic - I'm going to be very blunt and say I think he's a been a bit of a c*not/bastard/whatever and it's totally understandable that you'd have trouble getting past it, but if you divorce him (with or without counseling) he's going to be a free, lucky, part-time dad bastard while you take the very heavy brunt of a young baby on top of two other kids almost on your own. Sonic play nice til they're older and things are easier and then get rid of him.

That's the way many women play it, sad but easier (esp if he's acting ok now). Sojndx like you may have to keep an eye on him for a wandering eye too. Again, shit but necessary.

• So I'd play nice ..

No sorry for me it would be the end; the way he treated you is actually unforgivable and that's a reflection of his character, when the chips are down, he fucks off with OW and leaves you in the shit, that's not a man that has your back whatsoever; I'd be worried the next hiccup he'll do something similar, it was not a mistake, it was a prolonged period of time where he basically treated you with utter contempt.

He sounds a horrible person and that won't change I'm afraid, the things he has said, just wow, and big fucken deal he is now actually interacting with his child; he sounds pathetic and I'd have zero respect for him whatsoever and be moving on without him, I'd not be letting him do that again to me!

OP only you know if your DH is genuinely remorseful and deserves a second chance. It's one thing for MN to tell you he is worthless and the marriage is not worth saving but you have 3 DC, a husband who has apparently seen the error of his ways and presumably wants to make things work so really you have to be the one who makes this decision based on how you feel.

Fwiw, my relationship with DP was damaged beyond repair because of his selfish behaviour after I had DS. I was struggling with DD who was then barely 2 and a newborn plus dealing with post birth infections and associated health problems. DP thought that was the optimal time to take up a hobby (weekend course) that meant he was out of the house every single weekend from 7am - 6 pm. One Sunday I texted him in desperation begging him to come home early as both kids were screaming, I was ill and in agony and completely on the edge. He replied if he left early it would spoil his 100% attendance rate so I'd have to just crack on. I have never forgiven him.

If you want to give it a shot, see how you feel after a few counselling sessions and take stock then. You probably won’t have got to a point of forgiving him and skipping happily off into the sunset, but you might be getting a sense of whether there’s any hope left for a future or not.

And I do think he should be going to counselling on his own as well, if he wants to prove to you he’s got enough insight into his behaviour to realise how much he hurt you and how he can be sure it won’t happen again.

I don't think you can move on until both of you are honest about the situation.

He had an affair with the woman at work. He knows it but is unlikely to admit it when you are helping him minimise it.

DH and I got through this after DS2 and we came back from it with counselling. It did tint my experience with DS2 but it's part of his story now. The anger has gone, we're fine.