Don't want DM to look after DD (after asking for it)

[Littleton]

I've name changed for this and sorry it's very long.

I'm due back to work part time in 3 months time when DD will be one. When DH and I have discussed previously he has maintained that it would be better for DD to be with my DM and DF as they dote on DD and she is comfortable with them. I know too that this ought to be better and less anxiety-making than nursery at such a young age. So have asked my DM if she and DF would be happy to have DD on my working days and they've said yes and in fact have pushed for this saying it's better than nursery.

Here is the problem: I'm not exactly happy with this and increasingly by the day dreading this arrangement. Not to massively dripfeed but DM is (always has been) a textbook narcissist and whilst I have really tried hard to be a "good daughter" for the last few years and especially since DD was born, I'm at the stage now where I feel like I've had enough of the constant put-downs, comparisons and casual insults.

I know I've been caught in the FOG for years and years and especially since DD, I am still playing the good daughter but I think I have finally had enough. I also have a bad relationship with siblings (another thread maybe)

Examples of DM behaviour:

• being told postpartum that I didn't have it as bad as her (at the same time as being told that she had no complications in all her births) - I had massive PPH, ventouseorceps, forceps, 7 days in HDU.
• being told (almost daily) that she wishes older DSis would have a baby, sometimes adding that she it's unfair that I've had a baby first.
• being told constantly that I don't know how to look after DD, "you're wrong"/"you don't know anything"/"but I did so and so" etc
• being told that when I go back to work DD won't care if I'm there or not.
• getting blanked for days (including my birthday) because I dared to say one thing I wasn't comfortable with DM doing to DD
• taking DD from me when she is crying to let her "have a go" (DD cries even more)

DM is also prone to temper tantrums. Sometimes (both before and since DD) she has shouted at me down the phone or hung up or just refused to talk to me. Other times I am the "best daughter" and only one who cares etc. You get the picture.

Problem now is do I continue with the plan for DM and DF to look after DD and continue taking the put downs and crap but feel semi-comforted that DD is in "familiar" surroundings OR do me and DH just find our own way and bite the bullet and put DD into nursery? DH and I don't necessarily want to put DD in nursery when she is so little but equally don't want to pass on the toxic relationship to DD. Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware how lucky I am to have DM and DF willing to take on DD as it's a big ask but can just envisage the price I'll pay is my self esteem and sanity.

Thank you if you have read all of that.

Tell me Mumsnetters what on earth do I do?

Absolutely no need to explain as bastardkitty has said. If you want to elaborate you can say you’ve extensively researched the pros and cons and concluded it’s better for dds socialising. She will probably rant about not being with grandparents, who love her, call you a terrible mother for leaving her with strangers etc.

Your phone does have an on / off button. Your house and her house have front doors. You can ignore nasty texts. Don’t engage. Stand firm and don’t waiver and present a united front. If she or your df contact your dh, he is to say it’s a joint decision and thank them for their concern. And remember “this is my / our child and I / we decide (how we bring her up / what is best for her etc).”

Definitely Nursery!
Mine went to nursery at 8 months and 10 months and have been extremely well cared for...

Sorry crossed posted...

@Janus and @bastardkitty - thanks those are good suggestions. I've started to look at nurseries and have a visit booked for next week. Will book more today and get us registered asap. DH also talking to work today about using his annual leave to cover a 1-2 days per week for a couple of months when I first go back to work.

She will probably rant about not being with grandparents, who love her, call you a terrible mother for leaving her with strangers etc.

Yes either way I'll get the ranting - just want to minimise it.

You are deep in the FOG when you are still wondering how to keep the peace. I know; I've been there. All you can change here is your own attitude. You can't minimise your mother's reaction. I'd get your DH to lead that part of the conversation though - no apologies, no explaining - with a breezy, "We've decided it's best for DD's routine if she goes to nursery for X days- the nursery advised children settle in better and adapt to pre-school, school (you can make this up!) as a result."

Also look up grey rock as an approach for dealing with your mother. Stop trying to be a 'good' daughter. There's nothing wrong with you! Her own issues make her impossible to please and there will always, always be something.

Also she will try any tricks that have worked in the past- tantrums, threats etc. What you can change is how you react to them

I presume your DH knows how she treats you? So why would he suggest they look after her.

Children go to nursery as early as 3 months old. The staff are trained and capable.

I think the fact you even considered this indicates you need help...perhaps through therapy.

There is a lot of work to be done. You look to her for approval and you'll never get it from her... you'll never be good enough for her... you need to realise it's HER not YOU.

A psychodymic therapist/counsellor is worth considering. They go back into your past.

Don’t do it.

Every single instinct is screaming out to you to stop, so listen.
You know this will end badly for you, and for your child.

Find a good nursery/childminder/nanny or au pair and make your own arrangements for childcare, once you have found the right setting you will far more confident and comfortable.

Prepare for the ‘nuclear fallout’ by going grey rock when you call to tell her. Accept she will kick off and it will be a huge drama, and calmly deal with it. You don’t need to be sucked into the drama.

Going forward maybe a conscious plan of how you are going to manage their toxicity? Limit your visits and time with them. The fact she ignored you on your birthday over some small comment is very telling that she has treated you very badly for a long time op.

You are in charge now, this is your child and life and you don’t need to put up with it any longer.

She will hurt your DD like she hurt you. Think about that and dont do it.

I would say that you can only minimise the ranting by ensuring you're not hearing it.

Once you've made your decision with your DH tell your parents what is happening, why it's happening (you can be economic with the truth and using socialising or some such) and that it's the decision you, as her parents, have come to together. If possible, have Dh there to back you up so she sees a united front and can't go down the divide and conquer route. Then step away. Don't answer calls, texts, etc. until you've got over those initial wobbles that will likely occur (as the would for anybody confronting an 'assertive' parent).

Agree with what a previous poster said about socialising - it's important for them to spend time around children their own age and also learning to be away from family for a bit!

I feel your pain, what a horrible situation.

Be also prepared for her to undermine your choive constantly, minimising your contact with her will limit her ability to do this.

In a perfect world it would have been lovely to drop your dd with during gps, but in reality your situation is anything but. Many of us have narc parents, lots of us have learnt the hard way op. Wishing it was different won’t change the fact she could damage your child. That old chestnut a leopard never changes its spots, that is especially the case with narc parents.

Stand by your decision, your dd and do not do this whatever the fall out.

Boundaries and unity will be carve the way forward.

She's going to complain and rant and tantrum when you tell her your child is going to nursery no matter how much you try to sweeten the message. So for your own sake be clear with her why you're doing it, and know you've done the right thing.

Yes - either way I’ll get the ranting - just want to minimise it.

You cannot control your mothers ranting. You can only control your reaction. Hence why I said the phone has an off button etc.

You were taught, forced to accept and later imposed controls on your life to minimise your mothers ranting and reactions. You have made yourself your own jailer to minimise the ranting. You are afraid of the loss of control on the situation. Controlling others doesn’t work. You are testimony to this.

You therefore have to go through this situation and as a pp situation be grey rock.

Pp situation = pp suggested

Hi Littleton,

re your comment:-
"To PP who have experienced similar but haven't gone full on no contact - what are the practical ways you've handled this? I do want DD to be able to have a relationship with DM and DF and may need to try and keep the peace for that. I'd also like to avoid the full nuclear fallout of having to explain to DM that I am so unhappy about how she is treating me. There's no reasoning with her and would make things worse".

I can see why you asked her to have DD; this has all been part of your overall training to serve her. You are going to have the full force of her narc rage anyway no matter how this is managed so get your DH to talk to her to explain the decision i.e. after discussion we have decided our child is going to go into nursery.

Do not further JADE your decision with this woman i.e. justify, argue, defend or explain. It is explained simply as a done deal. Then block all their means of them contacting you both directly. BTW any presents/cards too from them going forward should be disposed of and not acknowledged; they may well not let go of you that easily and you may also get the flying monkeys (siblings, "friends" of your mother contacting you asking you to make up with your mother). You may also get to hear about them having previously unknown health scares too.
Narcissists too made the terrible choice not to love so she does not love your child. Instead she sees in your child another nice and brand new source of narcissistic supply. Your DD will be harmed in not too dissimilar ways as to how you have been to date if you do not act decisively now. Your H and you are going to have to be fully united here.

Remember too Littleton that she was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she will inflict a similar level of emotional damage upon your DD too. Narcissists make for being deplorably bad grandparent figures and tend to over value or under value the relationship with the grandchild. She will try and steal her heart and mind right from underneath you as her parents. The harm too could well be done right in front of your very eyes; a pinch, a look for instance.

As others have rightly surmised you are still very mired in your own FOG re your mother (and her willing enabler of a husband who is also her hatchet man here). You've been well trained by her since shortly after birth to serve her at your overall expense and that is still happening.

It is also not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist and because they are so much trouble the only people that tend to bother with them at all are ones that have received special training i.e. their now adult children of narcissists. Would not bother going grey rock on her either; this can be exhausting to maintain in its own right. You can only change how you react to her and I would respectfully suggest you find a therapist to work with asap. You need someone who ideally has vast experience of narcissistic family structures and no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment. Have a look too at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

Why on earth did your DH suggest that your mother look after your child at all?. Does he come from a healthy functional family unit, presumably he does. Can he really not see the emotional abuse that she has rained down upon you here?. Its questions that he should answer.

You probably do not have much in the way of boundaries re your mother mainly because she encouraged you to basically not have any. So setting them is going to be difficult too because of that and the fact she could ignore any boundaries you care to set her.

You do have some power here. Your phone does have an off button and you do not have to let her in to your home under any pretext.

You really will need to be prepared for going forward here and become aware of the flying monkeys sent in by them to do their bidding, gifts being delivered to your home, previously unknown health scares, your dad (her willing enabler) "pleading" with you and other crap that such people will do to keep you in their grasping control.

OP please stop torturing yourself over this...you are a grown married woman with a child..you get to decide with no explanation to anyone as to what is best for her,Why would you even consider putting your daughter through what you have gone through?Your daughter is defenceless and needs you to protect her mental health.The situation should you go ahead with your parents will lead to your child seeing a weak mummy who is totally inaffective against her parents,,,yes she is only tiny now but it will come ,Kids are skillful at picking up things I promise you,I think you need to make a decision today and implement it and put the matter to bed otherwise it will shatter you,You know what is best for your daughter and are just afraid to do it cos of the expected fall out....are you really willing to have your child used as a pawn in this unhealthy way? Don't even start it,find a nursery and lay out your plans and stick to them.No one will benefit from her being left in a toxic enviroment and you will hate yourself every second she is there with them then everything will seem a million times worse cos then you really will have to fight to get out of the arrangement.Put you and your daughter first,If they dont like it they lump it,,its because of how they are trying and succeedding to screw you up in the first place that this has happened,Please do not let your child grow up to feel like you do now,,,its just not fair, Your parents feelings are totally unimportant now so let them carry on and leave them to it ...you will have peace of mind when you act and if they carry on then let them go too ,,,its no way to live and with then continuing to dictate to you things will only get worse,Your time now to do whats right at what ever cost,,,its the only thing you can do ....

I saw also you trying to limit or keep the peace with your parents...Why? I do not grasp how you can contemplate being so subservient to them when all they do is treat you like crap.You owe them nothing,You being the peacemaker is just enabeling them to get away with frankly diabolical behaviour of you ....have some self respect please lovely cos you are worth far more than that.

Put her into nursery which is structured childcare on CCTV with trained staff.

If kids are not out of an abusive environment by age 2 a lot of damage is already done.

Your child is most certainly not too little for nursery, plenty of children go to nursery from a few months old. So put that excuse out of your mind for a start.
Your mother must be salivating at the thought of taking over your dd and raising her the way she wants. You won't get a look in or a say if your dd is in her care. Your opinions and requests of how to feed, comfort your child will be belittled as your mother will claim to know best. You have been emotionally abused and bullied by her all your life and sadly you have now considered her allowing to do the same to your dd. So stand up for yourself and your dd now. Find a nursery, book her in and then tell your mother. Do not even hint at the fact you are looking for alternative childcare before you have secured a place. She will try to manipulate you into leaving your dd with her.

And going forward you should look into therapy for yourself, build on your self esteem and give yourself every opportunity to stand up to her and your father in the future. Don't answer manipulative texts, don't answer the phone to them if you are feeling fragile. Arrange to meet in public places if you wish so she cannot rant and rave at you. If they call to your house you don't have to allow them in but if they do come in and start their nonsense you have the right to tell them to get the fuck out.

You owe it to yourself and your dd to push back against their behaviour now. Dont use them as back up childcare or ask them to babysit. If you wish your dd to have a relationship with them be sure that yourself or Dh are always there to make sure they don't negatively influence your child.

There is two aspects that she will treat your DD as she did you and will continue to sabotage you.

The third result is that she will pollute, undermine and destroy the bond you are building with your daughter - directly and indirectly.

She has done significant damage already to your DD by eroding this bond. You having panic attacks, crying to your DH for 3 days means that your head, heart and body are consumed and preoccupied with her negative toxic shit - this means you can’t at those times parent your DC positively. Your DD needs every bit of your finite emotional energy - she will be absorbing your negative state and feel loss as you are distracted - this will make her sad, anxious and insecure.

Do not let your DM drain you and pollute your bond with your DD.

You are doing well so far - you know what she is and how she operates, you know about FOG. You have listened to your gut and have started looking at nurseries, so keep strong and focused and keep going. I also think investing in some therapy would really give you the power to deal with her and free you to get on with this precious limited time of early motherhood.

Also, when booking dd into nursery do not give their names as a contact in case of emergency. Apart from yourself and Dh if you need to give another name use a friend. I'd go as far as telling the nursery that your parents are never to collect your child.

"If you wish your dd to have a relationship with them be sure that yourself or Dh are always there to make sure they don't negatively influence your child".

Even this measure unfortuntely is not without problems. They only need a few moments of alone time to inflict damage. A whisper, an insinuation, a pinch, a look.

If you consider yourself a responsible parent you will never, ever leave your child alone with your Narcissist parent. Ever. Do not do that to yourselves or to your child.

Also I would seriously be asking your DH why he actually considered your parents for childcare at all in the first place.

Please put her in nursery - or a childminder might also be a good option. But whatever you do, do not let them have her.

You know how you feel, and you know how badly they have treated you? Well she’s their next victim. And yes, as an enabler, your df is just as culpable as your mother is.

I would highly recommend extremely low contact, and definitely supervised at all times