Already have a stonewaller on my hands, is he gaslighting too?

[CoffeeAtCentralPerk]

A little back story -

Been together several years, 2DC’s under 3. DP has always struggled with communication or rather, lack of. He’s been this way from the beginning of our relationship but I assumed, in the early days, that the more time we spent together, the more comfortable we’d become with one another meaning he’d eventually be able to open up more easily and freely.
After a few years, his behaviour never changed. Issues or problems would arise whereby I’d try to sit him down and talk things through, only to be met with him avoiding eye contact, not saying a damn word and just acting as though as I wasn’t even in the room trying to have a conversation with him. That’s his go to, well, that or simply storming out of the room and going to bed at a ridiculously early hour as an attempt to ignore me entirely.

It took me a while before I stumbled upon the term of Stonewalling and realised that he exhibits this exact trait down to the very last detail.
I told DP about it upon discovering all about stonewalling and it’s effects, I asked him if he’s always been like this (prior to meeting me) and he admitted this is a long term issue that he’s struggled with for as long as he can remember. Naturally I told him if this behaviour or ‘coping mechanism’ continues, it’s going to cause detrimental damage to our relationship as I can’t be with someone that doesn’t ever attempt to resolve or work through problems and acts as though he’s completely not listening to my thoughts or feelings.

After many months of me keep trying to help DP battle this engrained behaviour and nothing changing, I suggested he go to therapy to talk through things with a professional as nothing I seemed to say resonated with him.
After being on the waiting list for the NHS Therapy For You for service for over 6 months, he finally had his first appointment the other week. Brilliant! He’s acknowledged there’s something not quite right and is taking the steps to see what he can do about it. Problem (potentially and hopefully) solved regarding the stonewalling, I thought.

Then something happened this week that’s highlighted another on going issue that I think I’ve been turning a blind eye too because I’ve been so focused on the stonewalling.

Our 2DC’s came down ill last weekend and haven’t sleep at all this week. We’re both exhausted and at our wits end regarding how to get our youngest DC to sleep for longer than 2 hours at the moment. After many hours of being in the nursery with DC2 and having no luck, DP took over. He proceeded to sit and rock DC2 which is exactly what I’d been doing and it clearly wasn’t working. I told DP he was wasting his time and that we needed to try a different approach, this for some reason, struck a nerve and he told me to fuck off. I left the room and returned after about half an hour after hearing DC2 still crying and DP obviously not being any closer to getting him to sleep. I once again said that he was wasting his time, he should go back to bed and let me take over, let me take the baby to the lounge and see if that helps at all, he handed me DC2 and again, told me to fuck off and ‘just do whatever’.

After DC2 had had some snacks and a 10 minute crawl around, I took him back to the nursery and he fell asleep with no fuss and stayed asleep from 3am-6am (a huge improvement given what we’d been going through all this week). I told DP that if he’d just let me take over sooner, we all could’ve got back to sleep a lot quicker than what we did. He mumbled a bunch of shit, pulled the duvet up and over his head and again, told me to fuck off.
The next morning, he got up and went to work and I sent him message saying that I wasn’t okay with being told to fuck off so many times unnecessarily and that it hurt me, when all I was trying to do was get DC2 down as quick as possible so that both DC and DP could go back to bed. I told him I expected an apology.

He ignored all of my messages - as he always does - so I brought it up again when he got in from work and asked him how long I can expect to go without a sincere apology. He basically ending up flying off the wall and telling me that he won’t be ‘guilt tripped’ in to an apology, that I twist every situation to try and make him feel guilty as a way of 'getting what I want'.

Upon him saying this, it dawned on me that he always does this. He always minimises my feelings to the point where I wind up being left doubting whether I even have a right to be upset or annoyed about anything. If I pull him up on something that’s upset or bothered me, it always transcends to ME apologising to him (fuck knows how!?!) and I always end up regretting ever voicing my opinion in the first place because of the shitstorm that follows.
I’m constantly second guessing myself after arguments that we’ve had and find myself wondering whether I’m even entitled to have feelings or opinions that go against his.

Is this gaslighting? I don’t know whether it is or not, after having a little look online he does seem to fit the description, but for anyone who 100% knows that they’ve been with a gaslighter - does this sound like something you’ve been through/something they would’ve done to you?

Thanks!

He's told me several times that even he doesn't like how he acts and he doesn't understand why he does it.
He's said many a time that he doesn't want to pass down this trait to our kids, he doesn't like that he can't open up or communicate, he says it frustrates him. That's why I've tried to help him so much along the way. Will I benefit from him learning how to communicate? Of course I will, but so will he. He wants to do this.
I suggested therapy, he said he needs it and wants to go.

I've read the post a couple of times and I feel you do 'seem' unreasonable. Perhaps tired/exhausted. I have done this myself and snapped that " I can do it better" which didn't go down well. You're both parent's, you have different methods. He clearly didn't want you telling him what to do, you carried on goading. I might've told you to F**k off!
You have opposing personalities, he's clearly not a great communicator.
Opposites do attract, my dh is polar opposite to me.
Is your husband stonewalling you or does he simply struggle with his feelings/uncomfortable with being open? One is a deliberate act, the other is a personal trait. Are you confusing the two?

OP I know where you’re coming from - Tara of feeling unheard and having your feelings minimised have left you feeling so frustrated that you just want validation that he’s in the wrong.

He is.

But so are you.

And until you start to address your own part in your problems nothing will change. In fact, that’s the ONLY thing you CAN change - YOUR reaction.

My DP and I have some belting arguments and I’m always convinced that I’m absolutely in the right and he’s the one being unreasonable. Strangely enough he sees it the other way round .

It’s taken us a lot of heartache and a few separations to get to a point where we are both now finally looking inwards - not at each other - for the change we need.

I’m not advocating that you split up to try and force a change but he needs to know that this isn’t how you want to live your life, that you are looking at how you can behave differently (you don’t need him to tell you your faults, you know what they are - we all do! They’ll be the same deep seated issues that have caused you problems your whole life, probably related to your first or strongest childhood memory).

In short, read some books, examine your own behaviour - The Chimp Paradox is a good place to start - this book fundamentally shifted my DP’s outlook on life, and mine to a lesser extent - but any help you can give yourself to deal with things more calmly and respectfully will have a knock on effect on him.

Or not. But the only thing you can do is change yourself. Imagine if you’d gone into the nursery with a team mentality - “god this is exhausting isn’t it?! I’ve also tried doing what you’re doing and nothing works. What else shall we try? Here’s a cup of tea, let me give you a break for a bit, you go and get snuggled up”. Same problem, same end result, but nobody feels criticised and nobody gets told to fuck off in front of the child.

Of course you could also LTB, choose not to stay with someone so disrespectful, but we’re all human, we all make mistakes when we’re tired. If you want to work it out with him, stop being defensive and making excuses. Accept your role in it, and change that.

Tara?! = Years

@BlueStockingUK how would I know the difference between whether it's deliberate or something he can't control? All I see is him choosing not to participate in conversations, dismissing me constantly and not even looking at me when I speak, and storming out of the room regardless of how gently I've approached a topic - and in some instances, he'll go off sulking for several days afterwards. I don't know whether he's doing it purposefully (although it does feel that way) or what.

I've just booked a telephone consultation with Therapy For You for next week. Perhaps they can help me see why I have a desire to sort problems out and help me work towards a better way of handling things.

I'm not sure any amount of therapy will change my way of thinking regarding the fact that two people in a relationship should work together through problems and the emotional brunt shouldn't be left to only one of us - but who knows what will happen. I was brought up to always try my best to resolve issues and conflict as soon as they arise. To air out problems, get them out in the open, discuss, apologise then put it to bed. I don't personally feel as though that's a bad way to be? Maybe the therapist will help me view things differently though.

You both don't seem very compatible with each other. It seems you rushed into a relationship with someone you hardly knew and then had 2 children back to back. People tend not to change. Not sure if therapy can resolve this.

Oooh, lots of 'It's all your fault' on here today. Did anyone actually read the ops first post?

Op I also hear you - what you describe is not exactly gaslighting because strictly speaking the gaslighter has an overt intention to make the gaslightee feel like they are losing the plot. However, I'd venture that your DH is deflecting your anger, hurt and upset during these conversations to avoid being with any kind of emotions. It's an extension of the stonewalling. Almost like step 2 - the ignoring/not talking isn't working so deflect deflect deflect. Its not a nice thing to find in someone who is supposed to love you and care about you.

To those people fixating on the single incident rather taking on board the full details the op has set out - stop trying to minimise some high level crappy behaviour. We ALL should take ownership of how we feel - if we act in a shitty way in the middle if the night we should own up to it when we're called out on it, apologise and hope that our partner understands that it was from a place of tiredness. And that cuts both ways.

OP it can only be your decision as to whether you want to commit to your side of the effort it will take to reshape your relationship. And then, it will only work if you both recognise the need to change.

What you should establish within yourself is that you are worth more than having your feelings consistently ignored or deflected back. You deserve to have your feelings acknowledged. If you hold that at your core then whatever your DH decides, that certainty will guide you on the right thing for you.

Madam I read the part of the OP where she said he’s always been like this but ignored because she thought he’d change (despite his giving no apparent indication that he would)

To air out problems, get them out in the open, discuss, apologise then put it to bed

Well this isn't a bad thing to do but it depends on what it's used for. If it's used for every single little thing then it would get hard work quite quickly.

I had a friend who would sit his lady down with a list of things that upset him to discuss until he was happy. Things like how she didn't greet him quickly enough when he got home from work and tea wasn't ready and my fav how long it had been since she put out in the bedroom all to be discussed at length about how it made him feel.

It really depends on what you're wanting to hash out and how often.

But the fact he just doesn't want to full stop and you're trying to change that says you're not compatible as a couple.

A few weeks ago my 3 year old was screaming in the night like she was in agony. I was trying to find out what was wrong with her as she has a medical problem. My husband told me I was making in worse and needed to leave her to settle. I told him to fuck off. He’s normally not like this btw. When I came back to bed and he again said that I’d made it worse by trying to find out the problem I told him to fuck off again. We do not have this kind of relationship normally and we both apologised the next morning, mainly him though. I think you were out of order telling him he was making it worse and it would be better if you did it. You undermined him. If you are frequently like this I can understand why he swears at you and doesn’t feel good enough.

I was brought up to always try my best to resolve issues and conflict as soon as they arise. To air out problems, get them out in the open, discuss, apologise then put it to bed. I don't personally feel as though that's a bad way to be?

It isn't a bad way to be at all but not everyone is like that or can be like that. I've found in my own relationship that unless you both are of a very similar mindset on how you act/react to conflict, then you both have to compromise and meet in the middle somewhere. Luckily for my and my DH, we weren't poles a part in how we did act so after a while we both gave a little and when we do argue, resolution is easier now because we understand better what the other person needs.

That's why I suggested trying counselling together because maybe a trained person could work with you both to find a solution for you or to tell you split up because you're not going to find one.

He sounds hard work but you knew what you were getting yourself in for. But you also sound like a piece of work - constantly looking for labels to diagnose him, being ungrateful and a know it all when he tried to help with the DC, and completely inappropriately talking to his work colleague. You say you are ready to apologise, but you are getting defensive about the comments on here.
He has started counselling, so he is making an effort. Back off and let him have a chance to change.

Op, I hear you. I have lost longer updates so just want to recommend, The Verbally Abusive relationship by Patricia Evans. Get it today, it started to open my eyes.

He sounds just like my ex. I also thought he would open up after a while because I was clueless about Stonewalling,abusive dynamics and narcisstic injuries.
It was perhaps naive of me but I assumed he was just reserved..no way did I predict the outbursts.
Ex does the same to the dc and has been in counselling 3 years, initially it made him much worse so be warned. He apparentely apologised to the dc a few weeks ago, a massive step however he still overreacts to perceived slights and still invalidates everyones feelings.
Ex knows that he doesn't function well in relationships but his behaviour is so ingrained that he seems hardwired.

Are you financially dependant on him?

I can see why you have responded as you have.. You are lost and trying to make sense of what is happening. I get it, I tried everything, nothing worked. Just hold firm on your boundaries but ultimately you may have to accept he is like this and unless he is highly motivated he won't change.

How about accepting that this is who he is?
That he doesn't want to change really, going to therapy is him, paying lip service and making it look like he's making an effort....so he can always use it as an excuse and throw it back at you "look i'm trying to change but it's still not good enough for you"

You can't force/make/persuade him to change his attitude and behaviour so stop pushing him.
You've tried all the above methods and still no luck - so stop.
There's nothing more that you can do.

All you need to do is decide whether this communication issue is a dealbreaker for you - and how much longer you will tolerate and enable it.

I think you are mostly right and he is mostly wrong from what you've written. You still can't change his personality though. It's not a matter of whether he should behave differently. The fact is that this is who he is. His way of being is a big thing, many behaviours, borderline abusive, not a liitle thing like picking his nose. It is not a thing for fixing over a few therapy sessions.

@CoffeeAtCentralPerk

All I want is for him to open the line of communication and I've tried so so hard over the last few years to find a tactic that best suits him

Read that carefully.

Do you see that you're describing how you need this person to fundamentally change in order for you to be happy and satisfied in the relationship? You have been desperately trying to shape yourself and your responses, in order to coax this person into behaving the way that works for you.

Are you aware that folk typically change very little as they age? They actually tend to become "more like themselves" as it were. This is especially true of those who avoid conflict because of course change of any kind (including positive change) creates conflict.

He is who he is. You don't like who he is, though. The way he is makes you feel shit. You've been trying to change him for literally years, you've been more and more unhappy, it sounds like he's not much happier either.

Is it not possible that you might need to start considering just being with someone you naturally fit well with? I mean that gently. I know you don't want to hear it. Perhaps think about it though.

It's really not meant to be this difficult. He's swearing at you for goodness sake. My exh was a very difficult person... he never swore at me in over 10 years together, neither has he sworn at me in the 3+ years since we split.

I don’t like the stonewalling and that must stop it’s not healthy.

But he sounds like he’s very scared or embarrassed to show emotions and when he does try to help, you’re basically telling him he can’t do it correctly or you know best. So he goes back into himself and can’t express it so it comes out in anger. I’m not saying this is correct but it sounds challenging for both parts.

This may well be true and you’re better with the dcs and he thought he could come in and do it too, it didn’t work but he did try.. and was scolded for it

Just to clear up the whole night waking thing that happened this week -

He 'took over' from me by storming in to the lounge and snatching DC off of the floor literally two seconds after I'd walked in there and plonked him down, whilst exclaiming 'i told you not bring him in here!!!'

I had just brought DC in to the front room because I'd been in the nursery for hours on end with no luck being had from mercilessly rocking him, I'd been trying that all week long and it wasn't doing anything so I wanted to try and give him snacks, let him have a crawl, a quick change of scenery - and FWIW, DP had said to me multiple times throughout the course of the week that I needed to try something other than rocking.. he then took DC and proceeded to rock him.
This is why I got annoyed and why I tried pointing out to him that it wasn't going to work. It wasn't to undermine his skills as a parent or 'prove' that I know best.

Reading more, I'm not at all sure this is you. You seem to be trying really, really hard.

There are some strong responses on this thread and quite a lot of what to me sounds like victim-blaming.

Why is it so often women's job to diagnose problems, formulate a plan of action, persuade people to change their unreasonable behaviour, etc etc etc.

An woebetide if you made a historical error of judgment about someone's character and are desperately trying to bring about change. Apparently you should suffer forever more for this .

Wine for you tonight OP.

Thank you for the term stonewalling. My stbxh is just like yours. Awful.

Google 'Avoidant Attachment'

I had one like this. I feel the pain. Its not you, its him. Very unfair to obstruct resolving issues in a relationship.

It is tiring to the extreme and soul destroying.

He wont change. You need to recognise its because he isnt capable of giving you what you are asking for.

I agree with the comments re making a mistake but dont give yourself a hard time. We have all done it.

What's your background and family history? I can't help but feel that there's some projection going on. He's the sick one but I can save him type stuff. Father? Mother? Siblings?

Or maybe, @vuripadexo , people choose partners who are similar to their opposite sex parent....